|
Post by profh0011 on Oct 7, 2019 11:58:14 GMT -5
I recall one art school class trip to NYC, where our 1st stop was the Society Of Illustrators. Of the works on display, I immediatley recognized one of them was by Bill Sienkiwicz. NOBODY else in the group, despite a number of them being comics fans, had a clue!
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Oct 7, 2019 12:01:35 GMT -5
There were some odd combinations in the mid 80s, like Bill Sienkiewicz inking Arthur Adams' already tight pencils. What's the point of that? Sienkiewicz's strength is creative layout and character design.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 12:48:27 GMT -5
There were some odd combinations in the mid 80s, like Bill Sienkiewicz inking Arthur Adams' already tight pencils. What's the point of that? Sienkiewicz's strength is creative layout and character design. The point was so Bill could get a paycheck and support himself when editors were hesitant to go with his non-traditional layouts and character designs making it tough to get assignments except on special projects. -M
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Oct 7, 2019 13:05:49 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 13:23:16 GMT -5
Covers sure, but he wasn't getting a gig with a regular page rate except for special projects. After Moon Knight and New Mutants, the only regular assignments he got was as the inker except for special projects. Part of it was his process is time consuming making deadlines tough, part of it was the reluctance of editors to put something out of the box out on a monthly basis in mainstream titles. So you take inking gigs to pay the bills while working on the irregular special projects that you want to spend your time on (at that time it was stuff like Elektra Assassin and the Love and War DD GN, later it was stuff like Stray Toasters, Moby Dick, and the abandoned Big Numbers projects). Nobody wants to be the starving artist, so you take what work comes your way. -M
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Oct 7, 2019 13:45:43 GMT -5
Was Bill having trouble getting work? It seemed to me that he was one of Marvel's go-to guys in the mid 80s when they wanted "awesome cover to sell mediocre interior." Covers sure, but he wasn't getting a gig with a regular page rate except for special projects. After Moon Knight and New Mutants, the only regular assignments he got was as the inker except for special projects. Part of it was his process is time consuming making deadlines tough, part of it was the reluctance of editors to put something out of the box out on a monthly basis in mainstream titles. So you take inking gigs to pay the bills while working on the irregular special projects that you want to spend your time on (at that time it was stuff like Elektra Assassin and the Love and War DD GN, later it was stuff like Stray Toasters, Moby Dick, and the abandoned Big Numbers projects). Nobody wants to be the starving artist, so you take what work comes your way. I just imagined a line of editors hoping Bill could squeeze in time do a full cover for them, rather than Bill having to go begging for inking work because there was no market for a full fledged Sienkiewicz cover. But my industry knowledge is miniscule. Even just this week, Sienkiewicz's thirty new pages from New Mutants: War Children sold at NYCC in a flash. Given that he's asking $5,000 a page for old pages on his web site, the new pages probably went for the same amount, which would mean $150,000 for the set in addition to whatever Marvel paid him. Not a bad haul! Seems like John Byrne would want to get in on that with his "Neverwhen" project. But it does suggest that Bill could have more comics work if he wanted it; he's just making more money doing watercolors of women in red caps and calling them "Elektra." Nice work if you can get it!
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 14:06:50 GMT -5
Covers sure, but he wasn't getting a gig with a regular page rate except for special projects. After Moon Knight and New Mutants, the only regular assignments he got was as the inker except for special projects. Part of it was his process is time consuming making deadlines tough, part of it was the reluctance of editors to put something out of the box out on a monthly basis in mainstream titles. So you take inking gigs to pay the bills while working on the irregular special projects that you want to spend your time on (at that time it was stuff like Elektra Assassin and the Love and War DD GN, later it was stuff like Stray Toasters, Moby Dick, and the abandoned Big Numbers projects). Nobody wants to be the starving artist, so you take what work comes your way. I just imagined a line of editors hoping Bill could squeeze in time do a full cover for them, rather than Bill having to go begging for inking work because there was no market for a full fledged Sienkiewicz cover. But my industry knowledge is miniscule. Even just this week, Sienkiewicz's thirty new pages from New Mutants: War Children sold at NYCC in a flash. Given that he's asking $5,000 a page for old pages on his web site, the new pages probably went for the same amount, which would mean $150,000 for the set in addition to whatever Marvel paid him. Not a bad haul! Seems like John Byrne would want to get in on that with his "Neverwhen" project. But it does suggest that Bill could have more comics work if he wanted it; he's just making more money doing watercolors of women in red caps and calling them "Elektra." Nice work if you can get it! The original art market is vastly different now than it was then. Until the 80s, artists didn't even get their pages back at Marvel (there was the big Kirby original art controversy in the 80s that fueled a lot of anti-Marvel feeling and some anti-Shooter sentiment because they refused to return Jack's artwork and it tainted some of the 25th anniversary celebrations), so there was no way for artists to supplement their income via original art sales around that time, and prices on original art were much lower-I picked up a couple pages in the 90s for under $20 a page (not big names but known names like Andrew Pepoy), sales of original art were not going to generate the kind of income it does today. MDG would know a lot more about the original art market at the time than I would. -M
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Oct 7, 2019 14:36:54 GMT -5
I suspect that the market for pages is cresting and will fall off in the next 20 years. Well-heeled Boomers and Busters heading into retirement with spare cash are paying top dollar for artists, and especially pages, that evoke their childhood. I doubt future generations will be as passionate about that same work, or pay as handsomely to decorate their walls and portfolio books with it.
|
|
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 7, 2019 14:39:59 GMT -5
I suspect that the market for pages is cresting and will fall off in the next 20 years. Well-heeled Boomers and Busters heading into retirement with spare cash are paying top dollar for artists, and especially pages, that evoke their childhood. I doubt future generations will be as passionate about that same work, or pay as handsomely to decorate their walls and portfolio books with it. Well since a large proportion of comic art is now produced digitally with no physical pages of original art anymore, and even more may be pencilled physically but inked digitally, the market for original art will have to react to that in some way. Whether the bottom drops out of it, or the value increases because of the rarity of original art if demand remains constant will have to be seen. -M
|
|
|
Post by brianf on Oct 7, 2019 18:52:54 GMT -5
I've always loved Bill Sienkiewicz's art - from his early stuff to what he down now, including posting portraits on facebookA few -
|
|
|
Post by berkley on Oct 7, 2019 20:20:16 GMT -5
I much preferred Bill Sienkiewicz when he was "doing" Neal Adams to any of his later stuff. It's odd, but somehow at the time, I didn't quite realize he was doing Adams. Looking back, I tend to think he was doing Adams better than Adams was. Of course, Adams was always "doing" STAN DRAKE, and a 2nd-rate version of Stan Drake at that. These days, I'd rather have Alan Davis-- or Ivan Reis. That said... I'm probably the ONLY one who feels this way, but as much as I enjoyed Sienkiewicz when he was doing MOON KNIGHT (and nobody else since has seemed half as good as he was), for much of his run (and for all of the period before he got on the character), I kept wishing DON PERLIN had stayed on him. It was Don's version of MK I fell in love with, and it was totally baffling to me that he never drew stories with MK (that I know of) after those first 4 he did, between WEREWOLF BY NIGHT and MARVEL SPOTLIGHT. I'm another one who prefers the Don Perlin Moon Knight, having first become interested in the character upon reading the 2nd issue of the 2-part Werewolf by Night story that introduced him.
I liked the early Sienkiewicz MK stories in the back pages of the Hulk magazine, but read the solo series for the first time just a few years ago and found I only started to like the artwork towards the last few issues, when Sienkiewicz started experimenting a little more and diverging from the Adams-style.
With Adams himself, I've always preferred the non-superhero stuff. Even in his Batman, my favourite panels were almost always those featuring street scenes, secondary characters in regular clothes, things of that sort.
|
|
|
Post by profh0011 on Oct 7, 2019 22:47:38 GMT -5
I came in "late" (but not that late). I first picked up the 2nd half of the SPOTLIGHT 2-parter. LOVED it!! Then I quickly found the 1st part. I'm not sure how long it took, but eventually I got the 2 WBN issues.
For several years, I had a hand-drawn reproduction of his MK cover on my wall (I did it with markers). I wonder if there was ever a "real" poster of that made?
Following the 4 Perlin episodes, Keith Giffen tackled MK next (in DEFENDERS). Then there was a 2-parter in SPECTACULAR SPIDER-MAN, but oddly done by 2 different artists-- Jim Mooney, then Mike Zeck.
MK seemed to be averaging a story per year. At the time, several of the newer, more obscure (and perhaps more "personal") heroes, I found more interesting than the ones who'd been around since the 60s. They were still "fresh".
To me, it was a sign of editorial chaos when MK was given his own series in the back of THE HULK!, and the 1st episode was done by Gene Colan-- and the 2nd chapter by Keith Pollard. That's my usual question-- HOW do you start a series, without having secured a regular creative team first?
And then, the story goes, Bill Sienkeiwicz walked in off the street with his portfolio... and walked out with the 3rd MK episode job. 3 pencillers in a 4-part story. (sheesh)
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Oct 9, 2019 16:22:52 GMT -5
Marvel Preview #23How lucky that her hair covers up enough to not get them into trouble. This is the second "Bizarre Adventures" issue, after the previous all-reprint #20. This time, they seem to be aiming for competing with Heavy Metal, though b&w art isn't likely to be much of a challenge, not to mention paper quality. Story quality depends on your tastes. Creative Teams:Shandra-Lynn Graeme, John Buscema & Joe Jusko; Annie Mae-Denny O'Neil, Gene Colan, Alfredo Alcala, Eliot R Brown (photos); Whole Tooth-Steve Skeates & Ned Sonntag; Final Warning-Lynn Graeme & Frank Miller; Fantasy Gambit-Roger Stern & Stephen Bissette; Way of Heaven-Mike Barr, Gene Colan, John Tartaglione. Lynn Graeme-edits. There is a bio page for creators, which was new(ish). Cover is by Jusko, who was doing covers on the Hulk Magazine and was quickly becoming a go-to cover artist for Marvel. Synopses: Shandra-On a wold that seems to float in space, appearing to have been ripped out of a planet, is a society split between people inside domes (the Mu) and those who live in the wintery world outside (the Sharoka) The Mu hunt the outsiders for sport and a group shoots down a male, then run into Shandra, a chick in conveniently revealing fur clothing, who has a pair of mugatu with her, if I recall my Star Trek... We see that Shandra's people were kicked out of the domes, but hung around outside, where they were eventually allowed to work for a day and get food. She tried to leave her brother inside, but a Mu dude said it couldn't be done but gave her a necklace. Her brother has been taken inside for experiments and she goes inside, as a worker, hunts him down, telepathically sends images to his head and they break out the brother. However, a guard sets off an alarm. Guards are waiting for them, but the mugatu attack and kill them and Shandra takes Shon to her ice cave to heal. Annie Mae-(done as a fumetti, with photos and artwork. A young couple are spending the night in a run down Bowery hotel. To make the woman feel better, the man tells a story. A cro-magnon man sees a vision of a naked woman on a mountain. he climbs after her, as light grows brighter and brighter; but, she is gone when he reaches the summit. he is reborn through the ages and sees the naked chick, but, she always disappear. Eventually, he evolves into a godlike form and forms a woman, based on his vision and sends it to the cro-magnon man and they are finally united. Back in the hotel, the woman wonders if they are at the start or the end of that story. The Whole Tooth-A wizard discovers the power of flight and passes through planes of existence, until he achieves cosmic awareness. Then he returns; but burns up in the atmosphere, leaving on a sentient tooth. He puts a siley face button on the surface of the tooth (which is the size of a small child) and ends up in a toothpaste commercial. he makes time with an actress, incurs the wrath of a producer and is shot dead. When the cops investigate and pull the sheet off of the dead tooth, they only find a quarter... Final Warning-a man opens his mail box and receives a letter. he runs in terror, thinking he missed the previous warnings, due to his mailbox being ransacked. he runs from faceless killers and seeks refuge in a park. The residents cheer on death and a dog attacks, which saves the running man. he gets a gun away and kills his pursuers. He moves on and is pursued by the relentless killers. he comes to a friend's place and bangs on te door and is turned away. The killers catch up and give him another head start, before killing him. We end with another receiving a warning for unpaid phone bills. Thefinal warning means death. Fantasy Gambit-A woman, Cheryl, is woken at 7 am by friend Rudy, who needs her help. Shhe pops into his place, surprised. Rudy's imagination has gotten away from him and he is making his fantasies a reality. Weird things go on and Cheryl tells him he has the power to fix the world. he turns into Jesus, fails at walking on water, then transforms into a hippie rocker, sings a song and transcends to the heavens. cheryl goes back to bed, with the secret that imagination is the way forward. Way of Heaven-a rube from Ohio is turned into Shaft (r a a reasonably similar Blaxploitation figure) and escapes muggers. An Asian woman sees this and introduces him to the Tao te Chang,, saying Tao saved him. One of the gang follows, forces an old woman to aid them in defeating the man's Tao and they fight and there is death; but, the Asian woman's love overcomes violence in the man and they go off in peace and the old woman sees the balance is restored. Thoughts: nothing earthshattering; nothing groundbreaking, nothing really to write home about. Everything is......okay. It looks to me like Graeme was trying to put together something like Star*reach, more than Heavy Metal and doesn't really rise even to that level. Shandra has an info dump and a cliched resolution. pretty much swiped from all kinds of sci-fi. Annie Mae is a tale of a willow-the whisp character, a Lorelie or other haunting, unattainable beauty. The dude finally becomes god and gives the woman to past self. The fumetti portions feature Mark Gruenwald and Linda Florio, with Steve Skeates as the desk clerk of the sleazy hotel. The interior story has nice Colan art. Whole tooth is goofy Steve Skeates stuff, with Underground artist Ned Sonntag adding to the surrealism. Final warning is a hunt, with a bit of social satire. Miller draws it in his early style, with some landscapes that would turn up in Dark Knight (the same arcade entrance) Slight on story, easy twist, mild satire. Miller did a few contributions to this mag, with more to come, including a new Elektra tale, down the road. Fantasy Gambit reads more like an Underground wannabe and the Way of Heaven tries for Doug moench philosophy without the writing chops. Barr was better with mysteries. On the whole, a rather "meh" issue. Strangely enough, this would be more of what we would see down the road, as Marvel Preview has only one more issue under that title, before adopting the Bizarre Adventures name, producing more stories along these lines. We will still get a few odd Marvel characters; but, more and more, we move into Star*Reach territory.
|
|
|
Post by codystarbuck on Oct 9, 2019 17:44:25 GMT -5
Marvel Graphic Novel #18Byrne's been reading muscle magazines. Creative Team:John Byrne-writer & pencils, Kim Demulder-inks, Janice Chiang-letters, Petra Scotese-colors, Mike Carlin & Michael Higgins-edits Synopsis: The faceless bosses of SHIELD have ordered Director Fury to bring in She-Hulk. Orders from the president. Yeah, like those are never way outta whack. Fury argues (like the DOD); but, Turkey is allowed to invade.....er, SHIELD will go after She-Hulk, while Fury goes on "Vacation." Meanwhile, She-Hulk is depressed because tomorrow is Bruce Banner's birthday and she is depressed about what happened to him, when the Hulk was born. Wyatt Wingfoot cheers her up and they go out on a date. Meanwhile, Dum-Dum Dugan leads the SHIELD operation. Wyatt and Jennifer go out on the town, with She-Hulk dressed like a stripper. guess we know the audience for this. Jennifer and Wyatt are interrupted by SHIELD agents in Mandroid armor. They are there to arrest her. Jennifer demands a warrant and they say they don't need one. Jennifer decides she can protect herself against illegal search and seizure. Wyatt and some civilians call an agents bluff when he says anyone interfering will be subject to Federal prosecution. Jennifer is kicking ass and taking names, when the SHIELD agent calls for a transport beam and She-Hulk ends up in a SHIELD facility, surrounded by armed agents. Jennifer clears a path by swinging a mandroid and rips out a section of wall. She and her friends run through corridors and maintenance tunnels. They escape gas and sonic attacks, while some weird looking guy, dressed like a wino, shambles on his own route. The refugees finally learn where they are, when they end up on the Helicarrier deck, surrounded by more agents and nowhere to go. Wyatt is separated from Jennifer and she is ordered to strip... Dugan breaks it up and puts the agent in charge, Dooley, in hack (confined to quarters). he apologizes to jenn and explains, and gets an earful about due process. Dugan agrees and laments what SHIELD has become. he then gets a call and finds himself ordered back to Washington and Dooley is back in charge. Wyatt is jailed and Jennifer taken to Sydney Levine for examination. Dooley orders her to strp, again, despite Levine's protests. Later, she is brought back, semi-conscious, to their mutual cell, with safegaurds, including a weight sensor that will release cyanide gas if they leave the cell. She-Hulk transforms to Jennifer Walters, squeezes through the bars and turns off the sensor (slight problem, to be covered later). Wyatt is still trapped. Jennifer moves on to try to get them out, hoping that she can get away with looking like a tech. She is spotted by someone who notices her bare feet and alarms go off. The weird wino encounters Dooley, plants a kiss on him and steals his life. his body is now controlled by some entity. Meanwhile, Jennifer finds a control room and sees that Dooley had been watching tapes of her "examination." Suddenly, the Helicarrier lurches to port... Aircraft slide off the flight deck and She-Hulk finds the dead wino. An agent shoots her, before a cooler female agent stops him, saying it was Dooley, not She-Hulk who sabotaged the carrier. She-Hulk is fine and wants Dooley. The agent gives Jenn the 411 and helps her with a purple leotard and she goes after Dooley. She is forced to go outside the hull to smash into a locked control room, via an observation port. She runs into Dooley, who is filled with an intelligent colony of cockroaches. She-Hulk smash and lets in SHIELD. They try to stabilize the carrier and a boobytrap blows off a lift assembly. They all head for the lifeboats... Gaffer cuts the starboard rotors to right the carrier, as it plummets. he uses the vortex beams to push against the ground, but, the ground isn't level and they crash, at an angle... Jennifer, Wyatt, gaffer and the SHIELD agents survive, but, the carrier's reactor is reaching critical and only She-Hulk can stop it. Jennifer plays Spock, at the end of Wrath of Khan, and gets swarmed by cockroaches (ewww...) She saves the day and smushes some roaches. Reed Richards examines She-Hulk and declares her free of radiation; but, she is now permanently She-Hulk. Byrne swipes from Dave Sim (and others) with repeated shots until she asks what the bad news is. Thoughts: She-Hulk, by this point, had been an Avenger and, after Secret Wars, joined the FF. She appeared in both of the previous two graphic novels; so, big things were in line for her. She continued in FF, until her own series was revived, with Byrne. Quite frankly, this is a glorified mini-series one-shot. It pretty much shows that there is no real plan to create anything of an outstanding quality in the graphic novel line, anymore (if there ever was) and just use it as a vehicle for the same old stories as in the other comics, with maybe some odd bits of nudity or language, outside the Code. The story requires both Nick Fury and Dum-Dum Dugan to act out of character. Fury defies the order; but, does nothing to aid Jennifer or expose who is behind the order. That's not the Nick fury I know. Dum-Dum tries to minimize things but accepts his exile too easily. However, Byrne needs them off the board, so they aren't the villains in this. Byrne also makes a meta-commentary about the change in SHIELD from world protectors to dirty deeds squad. This happened across the 70s, as liberal writers like Steve Englehart used SHIELD as a metaphor for CIA crimes. Many lamented the loss of SHIELD as Law Enforcement. Here, they violate due process, by executing an illegal arrest (they have no warrant from a judge, nor probable cause). An executive order cannot issue a warrant; only a judge can issue that, after being petitioned by the DOJ. She-Hulk was not read her rights and a case could be made for excessive force, in the arrest. Upon seeing the lack of warrant, Jennifer is justified in resisting. Being a lawyer, jennifer is well aware of the excesses going on. Wyatt is there to keep her in line, as a hostage. The cell escape doesn't work. The cell has a mechanism that records the overall weight in the cell and if it changes by more than a pound or two, it triggers cyanide gas. Jenn has Wyatt climb on objects and press the equivalent of her weight. Um, no....... regardless of how hard he presses, the mass of the cell remains constant, until She-Hulk switches to jennifer Walters, whose body has less mass (which should cause a massive release of energy, as that mass has to be converted to something. Byrne should have said it was a pressure sensor that required a same level of pressure on it, which might work with the pressing against the cell. This GN established that Jennifer Walters is now stuck as She-Hulk, though that would change later, as she could switch again when she had her revived serie, in the 00s. It also brought an end to the SHIELD Helicarrier, which would lead into the Nick Fury vs SHIELD mini, in 1988, where Fury uncovered that SHIELD was a front for the Deltites, advanced LMDs that became self aware and replaced SHIELD personnel. Fury had to defeat them and create a new SHIELD, leading ot the 1989 series, whose characters appeared in the Fox tv movie, with The Hoff. SHIELD got a new carrier and then some. I kind of agree with Byrne's commentary, about how SHIELD was so much better in the 60s, as the good guys. Making them a stand-in for the CIA ruined them, as an organization, as we got years of rogue SHIELD agents doing dirty things, before being caught by Fury or someone else. However, even Fury was shown to be manipulating things by trying a hostile takeover of Stark international, to force them back into weapons development (contributing to Stark descending into alcoholism). For me, SHIELD was more of a military/police outfit, governed by stricter laws, operating out in the open. Such organizations have good and bad; but, too many writers wanted to use SHIELD as a broad metaphor for corruption, which ignores the past of the group, defending people against HYDRA and other threats. Also, the corruption got to be a cliche. The later series never really corrected this, which is part of why they didn't last terribly long (though the 1989 series lasted 4 years, which beats past efforts, though more on the speculator boom and momentum than great stories). At this point, I am dropping the question of whether the graphic novel is warranted as few of these projects will be. Most of them are one-shots that could have been done in a special or mini-series, or in the regular series. Shooter didn't care about art and it shows and DeFalco didn't either. Archie Goodwin and a few others had ideas, grew frustrated and went to DC and elsewhere. By the same token, DC wasn't exactly using the format in a better way, though they did experient more, with their sci-fi graphic novels. however, when Dark Knight hit, they went whole hog for Prestige mini-series and one-shots, rather than album formats, then trade collections. Art would be reserved more for the inde crowd, who were more open to experimentation, though DC still managed the odd one that rose above the norm. Marvel less so, except at Epic and its days were becoming numbered, by this point. Epic's output would steadily decline until Archie left for DC, in 1989. After that, Carl Potts mostly oversaw it being put to sleep.
|
|
|
Post by rberman on Oct 9, 2019 20:20:52 GMT -5
Those escape pods look, um, biological. She-Hulk's quip about jumping rope nude refers to a running gag in Byrne's Sensational She-Hulk, in which Byrne was wont to answer reader mail in-character as She-Hulk. It started in issue #31 (Byrne's return to the book) with a Fourth Wall breaking comment about nudity and the Comics Code which generated some opinionated reader mail. In issue #36, a reader waxed eloquent about nudity and the Comics Code and the First Amendment, leading She-Hulk to make an offhanded comment about appearing in the nude, jumping rope. This notion apparently triggered a lot more mail, some of which was printed in a subsequent lettercol. Issue #40 has the punch-line starting on the cover, proceeding through multiple splash pages of her jumping rope nude yet strategically covered, until editor Renee Witterstaeter intervenes. By the end of the issue, She-Hulk is in outer space with trucker US-1, facing off (again) against monster mag-era menace Spragg, the Living Hill.
|
|