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Post by berkley on Mar 4, 2019 1:20:45 GMT -5
Didn't know about that one, will keep an eye out for it once it's collected. The trade came out mid-February. -M Ah, thanks, will have a look next time I'm in the comic shop. |
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Post by MDG on Mar 4, 2019 12:45:18 GMT -5
I read the first couple issues of "Hey Kids..." and have mixed feelings. It's generally well done, but I didn't find it terribly engaging in terms of "I can't wait to see what happens!" Also, there's always the distraction of reading while your mind is going "who is that supposed to be?" and "What does that refer to?"
The art is good, but the computer-generated lettering, especially outside the balloons--posters, business signs, etc.--looks like its floating above the art, not part of it (reading on iPad).
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Post by profh0011 on May 20, 2019 21:35:39 GMT -5
I remember that TIME2 was what Chaykin drifted off to when he slowly separated himself from AMERICAN FLAGG. I was disappointed by the slow-- then RAPID-- decline (plummet?) in quality of AF beynd a certain point. And amused when First Comics actually printed an "APOLOGY" issue, just before Chaykin came back-- overseeing a 12-issue run with a writer, penciller & inker of his choice. It was like a Japanese way of doing a book. HE was in charge. it looked like his work, and read like his work. And it was WAY better than the issues he didn't work on, by several miles.
AF was always dense, but T2 was impenetrable. This turned out to predict certain trends, as by the late 80s, in both television and comics, I saw a growing number of writers who worked with the sheer ARROGANCE that fans had to read or watch a story over and over and over in order to "get" it. It put the responsibility on the fans, when what it was REALLY doing (in my view) was abdicating any sense of CLEAR story-telling.
You want complicated-- but CLEAR ? Watch the 1978 "THE BIG SLEEP" to see how the hell it's done!!!
But anyway... speaking of predicting trends... although I didn't much care for T2, I did admire Chaykin for something he said about it at the time. He predicted that in the future, more and more comics would be done in the form of graphic novels. ONE big book per year, by a creator, with total control over the writing & art, instead of the usual assembly-line demanded by corporate publishers who insist on 12 issues a year NO MATTER WHAT.
I thought it was a shame he never managed it in the long run.
For awhile, I dreamed of doing that sort of thing myself!!
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Post by codystarbuck on May 20, 2019 22:31:03 GMT -5
Well, at the time, the indie market was strong and vital and the trend was more towards contained work; however, the 90s destroyed a lot of that, especially with the Distributor Wars. Once Capital went down, a lot of indies went right after it and the bookstore market had really been developed, yet, into a strong alternative. That took about another decade.
Chaykin also got sidetracked by Hollywood, which paid a heck of a lot better than comics. By the time he was back in comics, full time, it was not in a place to support much experimentation, unless you could really grab attention and get noticed by Hollywood.
By Chaykin's own admission, he had some substance issues, during that period.
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Post by profh0011 on May 22, 2019 15:19:44 GMT -5
I remember for several years thinking Howard Chaykin was one of the WORST artist I had ever, ever seen in comics. I couldn't stand his work at all. And then the 1st issue of AMERICAN FLAGG came out. And it struck me like, hey, this guy FINALLY got to where he made his style "WORK". I loved everything he did on that book after that. But before that, there was what I think was a really funny incident at a local comics convention. Howard Chaykin was on a panel with 2 other artists. I wish I could remember who the other 2 guys were. Anyway-- talk about UNMITTIGATED NERVE !!!! -- I actually had the youthful arrogance & stupidity to say, right to his face, in front of a whole crowd of fans... "I thought the CRACKED magazine parody of STAR WARS had better art."Instead of what you might expect-- angry insulted indignance-- all 3 guys looked at each other, and then began shaking their heads in agreement, finally muttering, as one... "Oh yeah-- JOHN SEVERIN!"  I honestly don't think I'd have done a think like that nowadays. (Man that was so long ago.) |
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 23, 2019 12:02:43 GMT -5
I remember for several years thinking Howard Chaykin was one of the WORST artist I had ever, ever seen in comics. I couldn't stand his work at all. And then the 1st issue of AMERICAN FLAGG came out. And it struck me like, hey, this guy FINALLY got to where he made his style "WORK". I loved everything he did on that book after that.
I was always a fan of Chaykin's work, it had a noirish feel to it that appealed to me (someone said, maybe him, that it was because when he made a mistake instead of whiting it out he'd cover it over with black!). I agree that AF! was a major escalation of his style. I've not cared much for his post-AF! style as much, sadly, and actually find it difficult to read.
That's hilarious.
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Post by earl on Jun 1, 2019 12:34:27 GMT -5
I think the 80s Indies were not able to find a second wave after the original titles finished or the talent that did the comics got hired off by DC (a ton).
There wasn't yet a back list for trades where a series could be an evergreen by compilations. If that would have been the case, I think how the natural ends of some of the series would have been better executed. Then there are those that never were completed, the sad dead letter office of 80s indie comics.
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 1, 2019 13:13:03 GMT -5
NEXUS was one of my favorite books for a long while there. when they moved to First and it became obvious Steve Rude could not do 12 issues a year, they came up with a brilliant stategy that I cannot understand why it wasn't adopted by many others. They had 2 regular artists. Rude would do 6 issues in a row, Paul Smith would do 4, then repeat. Smith was good. Damned good. But then Rude would come back, and he just totally blew you away. But THEN Rude succumbed to the lure of more money from "the big two", and they began a search for a replacement. They went thru about a dozen artists, some good, some AWFUL, before finally settling on ONE who was... third-rate at best. Honestly, WHY didn't they continue to have more variety, instead of allowing the book to drop SO BADLY in quality? They did have ONE guy I liked, and he wound up doing a mini-series-- but, it was the ONLY story in the book's entire history Mike Baron didn't write. The other thing is... as much as I love Rude's art, somehow, MOST of the books he did for DC or Marvel had, I felt, BAD WRITING. The " WORLD'S FINEST" prestige mini bordered on INCOHERENT. How the hell does that happen, when you have 2 talented people involved? And, from interviews, apparently Rude kept running into serious conflicts with various editors, all of whom put the blame on HIM for having a bad attitude. When Rude came back, they announced that the series would, in future, ONLY be done nby Baron & Rude, NOBODY else. And from then on, the quality KEPT INCREASING. I loved the mini-series that Dark Horse put out. I was disgusted when Dark Horse, purely as a business decision, finally cancelled the series, because its sales weren't up to where they wanted them to be.
A lot of years went by after where Baron & Rude could NOT seem to agree on what stories to do, and so decided for awhile to simply NOT DO the series anymore. Eventually, they did agree on something.. but by then, I could not afford to buy ANY new comics, at all.
Money's been so tight, I haven't been able to catch up with the more recent revivals. One of these days....
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 1, 2019 17:30:41 GMT -5
I think the 80s Indies were not able to find a second wave after the original titles finished or the talent that did the comics got hired off by DC (a ton). There wasn't yet a back list for trades where a series could be an evergreen by compilations. If that would have been the case, I think how the natural ends of some of the series would have been better executed. Then there are those that never were completed, the sad dead letter office of 80s indie comics. Well, couple of things happening there. One, a lot of the early independent companies ran into cash flow issues, within about 5 years. That put a damper on a lot of things. Exodus of young talent is a problem; but, an exodus because of non-payment is a separate issue. Some, like Eclipse were able to draw talent away from the Big Two (First, as well); but, then, didn't pay them or were late in paying. They cash flow also affected getting new books out, which killed momentum. Eclipse was marginal; but surviving, until the Russian River Flooded (like 86/87) and destroyed 2/3 of their backstock, in their storage facility. They depended on back issue sales to generate revenue to apply towards printing the new stuff. That was further exacerbated by problems with Harper Collins, who had a publishing arrangement for trade books, for bookstores. HC was notorious for late royalty payments to lesser entities . They also had problems with some of the smaller comic distributors. Second problem was that DC and Marvel were glutting shops with product, squeezing out the indies. On top of that, the black & white boom, launched by the success of the TMNT, further gutted stores and hurt their cash flow when they started sitting on unsold product. Move that into the 90s, with the speculator frenzy and the market takes a huge dump. Dark Horse was one of the few that used solid business practices (aided by having cash flow from their retail endeavors), used young talent, then enticed veterans to come over with ownership, promotion, and more favorable terms than some indies (First required long publishing rights, others varied a bit). Third was that there were often better opportunities to make a living at the Big Two and earn royalties on stuff you created. Now, it wasn't nearly as favorable as someone like Dark Horse; but, you profile was higher and sales would likely be higher. A lot of the 80s indie companies, though, were run by dreamers and charlatans. Pacific went down fast because of distribution issues and there were shady things with the Schanes Brothers. Eclipse had similar issues with the Mullaneys. First's management went to DC, and the other people were said to be rather questionable. Comico went through some major financial upheavals a couple of times, before bankruptcy. Now's Tony Caputo had a pretty shady rep, after a while and there were even charges of theft of artwork, by a couple of artists. Same with the guy behind Deluxe/Lodestone. By the 90s, you got a bunch of quick buck indies and a market that was about to implode and finally did. The distribution system was a big problem for the 80s indies and it got worse in the 90s, as they were consolidated. Heroes World had a decent rep, until Marvel bought them and tried to go national with the same staff and it collapsed on itself. Scott Rosenberg ended up owing a lot of people money even before he was expanding Malibu and starting Ultraverse. The only reason he could even contemplate doing that was that one year of Image distribution, when speculators were foaming at the wallet to give them money. Most of it just boils down to the problems of trying to run a business. Most start ups take an average of 5 years to become profitable, if they survive that long. From my research, in doing my Other Guys thread, most indies went under before year 5, or thereabouts. Only a very small handful made it past. Eclipse made it past 10; but, not by much. Dark Horse and Fantagraphics are the only ones still going strong, from the 80s (well Slave Labor is still around; but, not with a big profile). Image came in the 90s and is one of the few to arise then that is still going. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 1, 2019 17:37:55 GMT -5
NEXUS was one of my favorite books for a long while there. when they moved to First and it became obvious Steve Rude could not do 12 issues a year, they came up with a brilliant stategy that I cannot understand why it wasn't adopted by many others. They had 2 regular artists. Rude would do 6 issues in a row, Paul Smith would do 4, then repeat. Smith was good. Damned good. But then Rude would come back, and he just totally blew you away. But THEN Rude succumbed to the lure of more money from "the big two", and they began a search for a replacement. They went thru about a dozen artists, some good, some AWFUL, before finally settling on ONE who was... third-rate at best. Honestly, WHY didn't they continue to have more variety, instead of allowing the book to drop SO BADLY in quality? They did have ONE guy I liked, and he wound up doing a mini-series-- but, it was the ONLY story in the book's entire history Mike Baron didn't write. The other thing is... as much as I love Rude's art, somehow, MOST of the books he did for DC or Marvel had, I felt, BAD WRITING. The " WORLD'S FINEST" prestige mini bordered on INCOHERENT. How the hell does that happen, when you have 2 talented people involved? And, from interviews, apparently Rude kept running into serious conflicts with various editors, all of whom put the blame on HIM for having a bad attitude. When Rude came back, they announced that the series would, in future, ONLY be done nby Baron & Rude, NOBODY else. And from then on, the quality KEPT INCREASING. I loved the mini-series that Dark Horse put out. I was disgusted when Dark Horse, purely as a business decision, finally cancelled the series, because its sales weren't up to where they wanted them to be.
A lot of years went by after where Baron & Rude could NOT seem to agree on what stories to do, and so decided for awhile to simply NOT DO the series anymore. Eventually, they did agree on something.. but by then, I could not afford to buy ANY new comics, at all.
Money's been so tight, I haven't been able to catch up with the more recent revivals. One of these days.... Never had a problem with Worlds Finest, myself, and thought his projects at DC and Marvel were great, from the Mister Miracle Special on up to his retro Marvel minis. I know he had serious problems with Marvel's editorial folks (and I have heard others, including Tamora Pierce cite similar problems) but never read anything where he said he had issues at DC. By the same token, I've read interviews with him where he does seem a bit temperamental. Probably a bit of Column A and a bit of Column B I can't blame Dark Horse for not continuing with Nexus material, as you can't keep funding something that isn't earning its keep indefinitely. I love the Dark Horse Nexus books; but, their audience had shrunk dramatically. If bookstore distribution had been a stronger alternative, at the time, they might have had better luck selling things as complete works; but, you still need a lot of marketing. Rude also got distracted with the proposed Nexus animated project that fell through. |
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 2, 2019 15:13:02 GMT -5
I clearly recall the incident where Jim Starlin-- one of the people who helped WRITE the contracts for Marvel's graphic novels, and their Epic line, LEFT Epic and took DREADSTAR to First, because Epic (MARVEL!) was repeatedly late in payments.
I think one of my minor heroes of the independant boom remains Bill Black. He actually started publishing fanzines around 1969, then changed his company in the early 80s to become Americomics. But he always kept things "small", happy to continue his small niche business and not be foolish enough to even try to compete with "the big boys" (as so many of the small guys tried to).
Black's day job for decades was in film production in Florida, and some years back, began to actually produce his own low-budget films based on HIS OWN comic-books!!! I just admire the hell out of the guy.
As far as I know, FEMFORCE is still being published, however tiny the print run may be.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 2, 2019 21:05:38 GMT -5
I clearly recall the incident where Jim Starlin-- one of the people who helped WRITE the contracts for Marvel's graphic novels, and their Epic line, LEFT Epic and took DREADSTAR to First, because Epic (MARVEL!) was repeatedly late in payments. I think one of my minor heroes of the independant boom remains Bill Black. He actually started publishing fanzines around 1969, then changed his company in the early 80s to become Americomics. But he always kept things "small", happy to continue his small niche business and not be foolish enough to even try to compete with "the big boys" (as so many of the small guys tried to). Black's day job for decades was in film production in Florida, and some years back, began to actually produce his own low-budget films based on HIS OWN comic-books!!! I just admire the hell out of the guy. As far as I know, FEMFORCE is still being published, however tiny the print run may be. I covered AC in my Other Guys thread; and, yeah, he stayed smart with his product. His output is minimal, these days; but, still going. Never cared much for Femforce or much of his superhero output (average stories, amateur artists); but, he had some fantastic reprint material. I was regularly picking up his Golden Age Greats and Golden Age Men of Mystery, plus the odd one-shot. He really did a lot to bring some excellent Golden and Atomic Age material to a wider audience, in an affordable package. I had found a couple of old Black Terror and Exciting comics; but, never any of the Jerry Robinson & Mort Meskin issues. Then, he reprinted some of those stories! Got to see quite a bit of Dick Ayers Ghost Rider, because of him, plus most of the Golden Age masters who didn't work exclusively for DC, Timely or on the Fawcett Marvel Family material. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2019 22:23:50 GMT -5
I clearly recall the incident where Jim Starlin-- one of the people who helped WRITE the contracts for Marvel's graphic novels, and their Epic line, LEFT Epic and took DREADSTAR to First, because Epic (MARVEL!) was repeatedly late in payments. I think one of my minor heroes of the independant boom remains Bill Black. He actually started publishing fanzines around 1969, then changed his company in the early 80s to become Americomics. But he always kept things "small", happy to continue his small niche business and not be foolish enough to even try to compete with "the big boys" (as so many of the small guys tried to). Black's day job for decades was in film production in Florida, and some years back, began to actually produce his own low-budget films based on HIS OWN comic-books!!! I just admire the hell out of the guy. As far as I know, FEMFORCE is still being published, however tiny the print run may be. One of the artists on our local circuit, Jeff Austin, does the inks for a lot of the current Femforce issues (he gave me a couple issues last time I saw him as I was buying some art from him). I see Jeff a lot, and have bought a ton of art from him over the last few years, mostly stuff he has done for 'zines or book illustration rather than AC stuff. He was supposed to be at the show I went to today, but he was absent, so I hope he is ok after the massive damage from the tornadoes the area suffered last weekend (the show was donating half of its gate proceeds to the tornado relief fund for the area and taking donations in addition to it. He usually pals around with Craig Boldman at the show, and Craig was there, but no Jeff. I didn't get a chance to ask Craig if Jeff was impacted by the tornadoes though. -M |
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Post by profh0011 on Jun 3, 2019 14:22:48 GMT -5
One of the artists on our local circuit, Jeff Austin, does the inks for a lot of the current Femforce issues I recognize the name Jeff Austin. I know he did some work for Gary Carlson's BIG BANG COMICS. Some years back, I really went thru a phase where my interest in characters from smaller companies, or even fanzines, really exploded. I think there's something to be said for characters who are done by their original creators, and who haven't been around long enough to get STALE.
This goes for AC Comics, Big Bang, and various fanzines, some of which were collected & reprinted by Bil Schelly.
I have very little FEMFORCE... but I did manage to get ahold of the very first FEMFORCE comic, a "Special" set in World War 2. The damned thing impressed me MORE than all the WW2-era comics Roy Thomas has EVER written. I think that really says something!
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 21, 2019 23:28:09 GMT -5
I read the first couple issues of "Hey Kids..." and have mixed feelings. It's generally well done, but I didn't find it terribly engaging in terms of "I can't wait to see what happens!" Also, there's always the distraction of reading while your mind is going "who is that supposed to be?" and "What does that refer to?" The art is good, but the computer-generated lettering, especially outside the balloons--posters, business signs, etc.--looks like its floating above the art, not part of it (reading on iPad). I never even saw more than the 3 first issues and as it went forward, and I did research on the characters, I becaming increasingly interested in this book. Here is the thing... we just went through an era where the founders of the comics Industry, those that lived and worked through its creative and influential zenith, have died, and their legacy is now laid out for history. Even the greats of the sivler age are now gone. Infantano, Schwartz, Kane, Lee, Kirby, Ditko, Shuster, Simeon, Seigel... they are now all gone. The generation that came next, the students of those masters, Adams, O'Neil, Perez, Simeonon, Wrightson (who died actually) Strenko, Wolman, Chaykin, BWS, etc.. these guys are aging. And they are the last people we will ever come to know who will personal, first hand intimate contact this the founders of the industry. Howard is a sentimental little pussy cat  He rightfully felt that, although he still works in the old way, pencil and pen on paper, that he wanted to record some matter of his first hand expereince and this might well be the most inspired work he has produced for a long time. It is very likely the most important comic work down in quite a few years because it is a snapshot of the historical past (if there can be any other past), that nobody else has taken the time to record. |
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He rightfully felt that, although he still works in the old way, pencil and pen on paper, that he wanted to record some matter of his first hand expereince and this might well be the most inspired work he has produced for a long time. It is very likely the most important comic work down in quite a few years because it is a snapshot of the historical past (if there can be any other past), that nobody else has taken the time to record.