Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
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Post by Crimebuster on Dec 29, 2018 6:00:16 GMT -5
I'm still traveling, so I don't have access to this issue or anything. But just to clarify - I'm going from memory, but I believe it was Hawkeye who raised concerns about letting Carol go with Marcus, and Tony and Thor overrode him.
I don't know Michilinie's original long term plan for this, but I know he has spoken at length about this issue over the years so the info may be out there. I do know he was very unhappy about the last minute changes, as the fact that another story was published with the same premise was at the very least gross editorial mismanagement, as the what if issue should have never been greenlit. I have the sense he thought this was less an oversight than intentional sabotage or at least disregard, but that is from memory, I have nothing to back it up with.
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Post by zaku on Dec 29, 2018 6:54:29 GMT -5
I'm still traveling, so I don't have access to this issue or anything. But just to clarify - I'm going from memory, but I believe it was Hawkeye who raised concerns about letting Carol go with Marcus, and Tony and Thor overrode him. I don't know Michilinie's original long term plan for this, but I know he has spoken at length about this issue over the years so the info may be out there. I do know he was very unhappy about the last minute changes, as the fact that another story was published with the same premise was at the very least gross editorial mismanagement, as the what if issue should have never been greenlit. I have the sense he thought this was less an oversight than intentional sabotage or at least disregard, but that is from memory, I have nothing to back it up with. Fortunately, this is one of the most discussed comic books out there, so there is a lot of scanned pages around...   I don't know Michilinie's original long term plan for this, but I know he has spoken at length about this issue over the years so the info may be out there. I do know he was very unhappy about the last minute changes, as the fact that another story was published with the same premise was at the very least gross editorial mismanagement, as the what if issue should have never been greenlit. I have the sense he thought this was less an oversight than intentional sabotage or at least disregard, but that is from memory, I have nothing to back it up with. So, Shooter didn't do it, Michelinie didn't do it, Perez didn't do it... What's Layton got to say for himself...? |
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Post by rberman on Dec 29, 2018 7:52:42 GMT -5
As surprising as it is that Marvel let this see print, no doubt under some dreadful deadline, how bizarre is it that a decade later, with the full benefit of hindsight, DC chose to publish the same storyline? In JLA International #52 and JLA #93, both by Gerard Jones (1993), Power Girl has an unexplained pregnancy which turns out to be a scheme by her grandfather Arion, who impregnated her mystically (and involuntarily and secretly) with the child of the villain Scarabus so that the child, dubbed Equinox, could fight his dad. Power Girl is irate with Arion but ultimately quite protective of the instantly adult Equinox.    |
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 29, 2018 9:38:44 GMT -5
As surprising as it is that Marvel let this see print, no doubt under some dreadful deadline, how bizarre is it that a decade later, with the full benefit of hindsight, DC chose to publish the same storyline? In JLA International #52 and JLA #93, both by Gerard Jones (1993), Power Girl has an unexplained pregnancy which turns out to be a scheme by her grandfather Arion, who impregnated her mystically (and involuntarily and secretly) with the child of the villain Scarabus so that the child, dubbed Equinox, could fight his dad. Power Girl is irate with Arion but ultimately quite protective of the instantly adult Equinox. Well, his book (with Will Jacobs), The Comic Book Heroes, skips discussing Avengers 200. The book was published in 1985; but kind of glosses through 1980-83, mentioning things like Elektra and Daredevil, Moon Knight, Levitz & Giffen Legion, New Teen Titans and a brief survey of the new independent books, including Cerebus, American Flag, The Rocketeer, and a list of Eclipse books. I suspect they did that last minute. However, it suggests that there wasn't, yet, a big brouhaha about the issue, beyond the couple of publications we have identified. That book was revised, in the late 90s, with a more tabloidy, behind-the-scenes focus. I don't have a copy anymore, nor do I have scans; but, I seem to recall it coming up within the book, which discusses the Shooter era in more detail, particularly the controversies (the original talked about the homogenization, as Shooter pushes his ideas of storytelling, while 70s Marvel creators were defecting to DC). That book would have coincided with (relatively) early internet. Gerard Jones is also the guy that turned Hal Jordan into a drunk who happened to be nearby when the ring showed up. If that's not bad enough, he was arrested in 2016, for possession of child pornography and pled guilty in April of this year, receiving a sentence of 6 years in prison and 5 years court supervision after release. So, probably not the most sensitive writer to the issues raised within either storyline. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Dec 29, 2018 14:07:13 GMT -5
Gerard Jones is also the guy that turned Hal Jordan into a drunk who happened to be nearby when the ring showed up. Jim Owsley made Hal a drunk driver in Emerald Dawn #1. Jones scripted the remainder of the series over plots by Keith Giffen. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 29, 2018 22:12:03 GMT -5
Gerard Jones is also the guy that turned Hal Jordan into a drunk who happened to be nearby when the ring showed up. Jim Owsley made Hal a drunk driver in Emerald Dawn #1. Jones scripted the remainder of the series over plots by Keith Giffen. My bad; my aged memory had him on the first story. Sadly, I am correct on his more recent history. |
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 29, 2018 22:36:59 GMT -5
Can anyone confirm my impression that George Perez had to redraw some of the issue (possibly at short notice) to accommodate Shooter and his changes? Is that where Bob Layton maybe came into the picture?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 30, 2018 11:09:23 GMT -5
I'm still traveling, so I don't have access to this issue or anything. But just to clarify - I'm going from memory, but I believe it was Hawkeye who raised concerns about letting Carol go with Marcus, and Tony and Thor overrode him. I don't know Michilinie's original long term plan for this, but I know he has spoken at length about this issue over the years so the info may be out there. I do know he was very unhappy about the last minute changes, as the fact that another story was published with the same premise was at the very least gross editorial mismanagement, as the what if issue should have never been greenlit. I have the sense he thought this was less an oversight than intentional sabotage or at least disregard, but that is from memory, I have nothing to back it up with. Fortunately, this is one of the most discussed comic books out there, so there is a lot of scanned pages around... I can’t say that I would have behaved any differently from Iron Man or Thor, there... My comrade just went through an emotional roller coaster, but she says that after all that she does feel something for her lover slash son and is willing to give the relationship a chance. “Are you sure?” would I ask incredulously. “Yes, I’m sure”. “Well, okay, then...” I wouldn’t feel it to be my place to insist that another adult, and a super-hero to boot, is too emotionally compromised to make her own decisions. I mean, if she can forgive the dude who manipulated her like that, it's her call... she’s a bigger person than I am. Besides, this is just Limbo, another dimension not further away than Europe as far as travel difficulties are concerned. When I read Avengers #200, I just assumed that Carol could come back whenever she wanted to, and so if the relationship didn't work there was little harm done. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 30, 2018 16:36:40 GMT -5
Fortunately, this is one of the most discussed comic books out there, so there is a lot of scanned pages around... I can’t say that I would have behaved any differently from Iron Man or Thor, there... My comrade just went through an emotional roller coaster, but she says that after all that she does feel something for her lover slash son and is willing to give the relationship a chance. “Are you sure?” would I ask incredulously. “Yes, I’m sure”. “Well, okay, then...” I wouldn’t feel it to be my place to insist that another adult, and a super-hero to boot, is too emotionally compromised to make her own decisions. I mean, if she can forgive the dude who manipulated her like that, it's her call... she’s a bigger person than I am. Besides, this is just Limbo, another dimension not further away than Europe as far as travel difficulties are concerned. When I read Avengers #200, I just assumed that Carol could come back whenever she wanted to, and so if the relationship didn't work there was little harm done. Well it's a superhero comics. Considering the line about "little boost from the machines", they should have been sure she wasn't under mental control or whatever. ETA: Hawkeye tried to make the same argument in Avengers Annual #10.... she didn't buy it.  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 31, 2018 10:21:36 GMT -5
I can’t say that I would have behaved any differently from Iron Man or Thor, there... My comrade just went through an emotional roller coaster, but she says that after all that she does feel something for her lover slash son and is willing to give the relationship a chance. “Are you sure?” would I ask incredulously. “Yes, I’m sure”. “Well, okay, then...” I wouldn’t feel it to be my place to insist that another adult, and a super-hero to boot, is too emotionally compromised to make her own decisions. I mean, if she can forgive the dude who manipulated her like that, it's her call... she’s a bigger person than I am. Besides, this is just Limbo, another dimension not further away than Europe as far as travel difficulties are concerned. When I read Avengers #200, I just assumed that Carol could come back whenever she wanted to, and so if the relationship didn't work there was little harm done. Well it's a superhero comics. Considering the line about "little boost from the machines", they should have been sure she wasn't under mental control or whatever. Fair enough, but that would also apply to any major decision made whenever there’s a telepath involved, surely? Besides, Carol wasn’t under Marcus's control; she had been made to fall in love with him thanks to technological means, but she wasn’t under his machines’ spell. The Avengers weren’t asked if they thought that was cool; they were dealing with the effects of the deed. Marcus owed up to manipulating Carol, everyone knew about it (including Carol) and even so she seemed ready to go with him, despite her friends’ misgivings. At what point is a character supposed to accept that another character is psychologically incompetent to make their own choices? Tristan and Isolde would have had a far less tragic ending if everyone had said “no, no, it’s all the love potion’s doing”, I’ll grant that, but these are not real people; they’re fantastic characters who often do things that would be odd in the real world. Hawkeye’s my man!  Yep, Carol now claims she wasn’t fit to make that decision and that her friends let her down. It works in the context of this story, but it wasn’t a foreseeable nor unavoidable plot twist; another writer might have decided that Carol knew exactly what she was doing in Avengers #200, and that she was fine with her decision. It’s funny to see how strongly Chris feels about this here (with arguably good “real world” arguments), but still had the X-Men be fine with Cyclops marrying a perfect copy of his dead telepathic girlfriend, a copy whose mind Charles Xavier cannot read. If there was a case that required a serious investigation it was the appearance of Madelyne Pryor, but nah... by then we were back in comic-book logic, not real world psychology. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 31, 2018 10:58:00 GMT -5
Well, I feel that for the sake of the conversation I have to post the following pages after that one...  
So, like she said, not only they took everything Marcus said at face value, but after a confused and terrorized Carol, who had been used as an human incubator, had searched help, they joked about toys and how wonderful is being a mother. Fair enough, but that would also apply to any major decision made whenever there’s a telepath involved, surely? Besides, Carol wasn’t under Marcus's control; she had been made to fall in love with him thanks to technological means, but she wasn’t under his machines’ spell. The Avengers weren’t asked if they thought that was cool; they were dealing with the effects of the deed. Marcus owed up to manipulating Carol, everyone knew about it (including Carol) and even so she seemed ready to go with him, despite her friends’ misgivings. At what point is a character supposed to accept that another character is psychologically incompetent to make their own choices? Tristan and Isolde would have had a far less tragic ending if everyone had said “no, no, it’s all the love potion’s doing”, I’ll grant that, but these are not real people; they’re fantastic characters who often do things that would be odd in the real world. So, a real world example. Imagine that you go to a club with a dear friend of yours. An independent, strong, career-oriented friend. After half an hour she tells you that she has just met a person and then she is leaving everything, family, friends and work to go and serve him as a devote slave somewhere in the Aleutian Islands. Well, this person had secretly given her some strange pills but he just admitted it, so you have to be sure that this is her choice. So, would it be everything ok for you? Nothing strange? It's just her decision and she doesn't need your help to reconsider what she is doing? Or do you just crack some joke on the perks to be a slave and wish her good luck? ETA: by the way, she is also saying that she has to leave *now*, because the last ship to the Aleutian Islands is leaving soon. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 31, 2018 12:11:53 GMT -5
Well, I feel that for the sake of the conversation I have to post the following pages after that one...
So, like she said, not only they took everything Marcus said at face value, but after a confused and terrorized Carol, who had been used as an human incubator, had searched help, they joked about toys and how wonderful is being a mother. That’s actually what I found the most disturbing in the whole mess... How the Avengers adopted that oh-so consensual attitude that everything is always fine. “You're pregnant without knowing how? How wonderful! I love babies!” Ugh... The Legion of super-heroes had the same sweet and nauseating attitude when Sensor was turned from a snake (her natural form) to a semi-human creature... “Oh, no worry, we love you for what you are inside and besides you’re beauuuuutiful!” No she’s not... She’s a monster by her species’ aesthetic standards, you well-intentioned squajes! A little compassion would be more appropriate that saccharin-flavoured optimism! Mmmmh... That real world example sounds even more fantastic than what happened to Carol! A pill that causes people to become subservient to someone else but leaves them coherent? I’ve never heard of such a thing. I hope it doesn’t exist, or I’m never drinking in public again! Now if my friend had been treated to a cocktail laced with GHB, she’d be acting very drunk, and I certainly wouldn't let her out of my sight, that’s for sure. But if she was acting normally? How would it be my place to tell her to stay put? The most I could do would be to try and talk her out of it, perhaps pointing out how illogical and unlike her it would be to throw her life out the window (something Carol was not doing; she was just going to move in with her insecure boyfriend from another dimension. I don’t like the guy, but what can you do?) Real world anecdote: I have had friends sever ties with their “old life” for what I considered irrational reasons (they didn’t become sex slaves in the Aleutians, they just joined the 7th day adventists) and although I strongly disagreed and thought they were psychologically influenced by their new acquaintances, I couldn’t very well forcibly prevent them from doing so. Should I have been more adamant? Maybe so, because I don’t think that was a good choice; but it’s their choice to make. I apologize if my arguments are getting circular; it’s my famous Ouroboros impression!!! Thanks for the interesting discussion. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 31, 2018 13:07:51 GMT -5
Well, I feel that for the sake of the conversation I have to post the following pages after that one...
So, like she said, not only they took everything Marcus said at face value, but after a confused and terrorized Carol, who had been used as an human incubator, had searched help, they joked about toys and how wonderful is being a mother. That’s actually what I found the most disturbing in the whole mess... How the Avengers adopted that oh-so consensual attitude that everything is always fine. “You're pregnant without knowing how? How wonderful! I love babies!” Ugh... The Legion of super-heroes had the same sweet and nauseating attitude when Sensor was turned from a snake (her natural form) to a semi-human creature... “Oh, no worry, we love you for what you are inside and besides you’re beauuuuutiful!” No she’s not... She’s a monster by her species’ aesthetic standards, you well-intentioned squajes! A little compassion would be more appropriate that saccharin-flavoured optimism! Mmmmh... That real world example sounds even more fantastic than what happened to Carol! A pill that causes people to become subservient to someone else but leaves them coherent? I’ve never heard of such a thing. I hope it doesn’t exist, or I’m never drinking in public again! Now if my friend had been treated to a cocktail laced with GHB, she’d be acting very drunk, and I certainly wouldn't let her out of my sight, that’s for sure. But if she was acting normally? How would it be my place to tell her to stay put? The most I could do would be to try and talk her out of it, perhaps pointing out how illogical and unlike her it would be to throw her life out the window (something Carol was not doing; she was just going to move in with her insecure boyfriend from another dimension. I don’t like the guy, but what can you do?) Real world anecdote: I have had friends sever ties with their “old life” for what I considered irrational reasons (they didn’t become sex slaves in the Aleutians, they just joined the 7th say adventists) and although I strongly disagreed and thought they were psychologically influenced by their new acquaintances, I couldn’t very well forcibly prevent them from doing so. Should I have been more adamant? Maybe so, because I don’t think that was a good choice; but it’s their choice to make. I apologize if my arguments are getting circular; it’s my famous Ouroboros impression!!! Thanks for the interesting discussion. Well, you are right, a similar pill doesn't (fortunately) exist, but it was the most similar real (?) life situation that I managed to make up.  The big difference with Carol and your friends is that (I suppose) with them there was some premonitory sign or that their decision was in any case the result of some kind of process. Instead with Carol she was literally kidnapped and brainwashed. And another big difference is, if you suspect there is something wrong with your friend, you can call the police so they can decide themselves if there is some kind of crime going on, because they have the means and the knowledge. In the comics world, The Avengers are the police, so it would be their duty checking out if there was something fishy with all thing, because they literally can't delegate this to anyone else. |
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Post by zaku on Dec 31, 2018 13:56:29 GMT -5
By the way, I'm trying to imagine the conversation after the last page of Avengers #200
WASP: Ok guys, it seems that the time-related shenanigans has ended! Err, where is Carol?
HAWKEYE: Well, it's a fun story, you see [he sums up what happened in the last two page]
WASP: What a lucky person! It's evidently what every strong and independent woman (like Carol) dreams: spending eternity in the nothingness with the guy who kidnapped, brainwashed and impregnated her while abandoning all her aspirations and the life which she has built here. I have obviously no reason to doubt the judgement of you guys, a notorious womanizer, a guy who has formed his convictions during the Viking era and an ex-criminal egoistic jerk. Well, what we do with all the things she has leaved behind? Charity?
Obviously I'm exaggerating, but it is obvious that in-universe a similar conversation took place, because, well, Carol remained in the limbo without anyone going to check. So her fury in Avengers Annual toward all the Avengers was justified.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 31, 2018 14:01:21 GMT -5
That’s actually what I found the most disturbing in the whole mess... How the Avengers adopted that oh-so consensual attitude that everything is always fine. “You're pregnant without knowing how? How wonderful! I love babies!” Ugh... The Legion of super-heroes had the same sweet and nauseating attitude when Sensor was turned from a snake (her natural form) to a semi-human creature... “Oh, no worry, we love you for what you are inside and besides you’re beauuuuutiful!” No she’s not... She’s a monster by her species’ aesthetic standards, you well-intentioned squajes! A little compassion would be more appropriate that saccharin-flavoured optimism! Mmmmh... That real world example sounds even more fantastic than what happened to Carol! A pill that causes people to become subservient to someone else but leaves them coherent? I’ve never heard of such a thing. I hope it doesn’t exist, or I’m never drinking in public again! Now if my friend had been treated to a cocktail laced with GHB, she’d be acting very drunk, and I certainly wouldn't let her out of my sight, that’s for sure. But if she was acting normally? How would it be my place to tell her to stay put? The most I could do would be to try and talk her out of it, perhaps pointing out how illogical and unlike her it would be to throw her life out the window (something Carol was not doing; she was just going to move in with her insecure boyfriend from another dimension. I don’t like the guy, but what can you do?) Real world anecdote: I have had friends sever ties with their “old life” for what I considered irrational reasons (they didn’t become sex slaves in the Aleutians, they just joined the 7th say adventists) and although I strongly disagreed and thought they were psychologically influenced by their new acquaintances, I couldn’t very well forcibly prevent them from doing so. Should I have been more adamant? Maybe so, because I don’t think that was a good choice; but it’s their choice to make. I apologize if my arguments are getting circular; it’s my famous Ouroboros impression!!! Thanks for the interesting discussion. Well, you are right, a similar pill doesn't (fortunately) exist, but it was the most similar real (?) life situation that I managed to make up. The big difference with Carol and your friends is that (I suppose) with them there was some premonitory sign or that their decision was in any case the result of some kind of process. Instead with Carol she was literally kidnapped and brainwashed. And another big difference is, if you suspect there is something wrong with your friend, you can call the police so they can decide themselves if there is some kind of crime going on, because they have the means and the knowledge. In the comics world, The Avengers are the police, so it would be their duty checking out if there was something fishy with all thing, because they literally can't delegate this to anyone else. True. I sometimes miss the days when superheroes would call the cops, if only to put the handcuffs on a supervillain. Nowadays, whenever they call the authorities, it is some sort of extra-legal entity like SHIELD that plays it loose with civil liberties and the rule of law. The official message given by superheroes might be that with great power comes great responsibility, but in effect they’re pretty much saying that might makes right (with no consequences, of so few, to their actions). |
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The big difference with Carol and your friends is that (I suppose) with them there was some premonitory sign or that their decision was in any case the result of some kind of process. Instead with Carol she was literally kidnapped and brainwashed.