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Post by electricmastro on Jul 22, 2019 23:51:23 GMT -5
The milestone comic that tried to be something great with all sorts of things going on, but ended up collapsing and falling flat on its face, not just handing the rape plot poorly, but making all of the Avengers look like flat out idiots in handling the situation. It really does contrast with the quality presented in The Dark Phoenix Saga that came out that same year.
There was carelessness that happened with this story. That's all I can really say.
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 23, 2019 10:14:13 GMT -5
Apparently Michelinie intended the Supreme Intelligence to be the father of Carol's child, but Shooter vetoed this as too similar to What If #20 (What If the Avengers Fought the Kree-Skrull War Without Rick Jones, from April 1980 by Tom DeFalco and Alan Kupperberg). Well, that would have made more sense, since Carol Danvers was so connected to the "Captain Mar-Vell" series from 1968-on.
I haven't read the entire thread yet, but I thought I'd mention (in case no one else has yet), the story idea was actually REUSED on an episode of STAR TREK: THE NEXT GENERATION. Most ST:TNG fans probably can't understand how I came to hate that show by the time it was cancelled.
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 23, 2019 10:16:13 GMT -5
Well the (depressing) alternative is that every one of them is lying. I believe it's one of the requirements of the contract. |
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 23, 2019 10:22:31 GMT -5
I don't recall the storyline getting much attention, at the time, until Avengers Annual #10 came out and addressed it, specifically. The general audience barely noticed it and moved on. A sort of... "What the hell was THAT?" And then you move on. And the issues that followed were of such NOTICABLY inferior quality, even before Perez moved on, that #200 probably seemed "pretty cool" for the most part, if you've only read it once, in a stack of new comics that week.
As I recall, first the art went to hell, then Bill Mantlo & Gene Colan came on (2nd-rate stories and Gene's art being MURDERED by really bad inks), and then Jim Shooter came back as writer, to COMPLETELY put the kobosh on the series. And so typical of him, he created a mess, then months and months later, someone else had to come in and clean it up (Roger Stern).
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Post by zaku on Jul 23, 2019 10:37:25 GMT -5
Well the (depressing) alternative is that every one of them is lying. I believe it's one of the requirements of the contract. My pet theory is they sincerely don't remember. We are talking about people who worked on literally hundreds of stories and Avengers #200 was published 40 years ago. And, like others have said, until the "Rape of Ms Marvel" essay and Avengers Annual #10 people hadn't really talked about it. |
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 23, 2019 10:37:52 GMT -5
The heart of his indignation was that he saw Ms. Marvel as one of "his" characters, and he didn't like her going off with Marcus to limbo or wherever he was from, and so he wrote a story to bring her back and have her yell at the Avengers for letting her go.
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 23, 2019 11:06:47 GMT -5
2 final points and then I'm gonna get back to work.
In a science-fiction story I wrote some years ago, a villain who was apparently a whiz at chemisty did come up with a drug that could leave a person completely coherent, yet be VERY succeptible to "suggestion". A chemical form of brainwashing. It would wear off "harmlessly" after 48 hours, so it had to be repeatedly administered to keep working.
More recently, a singer friend I've known for 22 years disappeared off the internet for 2 months, and when she resurfaced, she shocked ALL her friends (including all the ones she actually hangs out with in person) by announcing she'd MARRIED a guy she met only 8 weeks earlier. A real "WTF???" moment. Here my estimation of her had been steadily increasing over the preceding 5 years, and then she went and pulled a stunt like this. OY.
Trying to be as gracious as possible, 3 months later, when she posted honeymoon photos, I wrote to wish her all the best. The next day, she wrote back to say thanks. OKAY. Cool. But then ONE hour later... her new husband wrote me a short note that was RUDE, OBNOXIOUS, INSULTING and even questioned my sanity, all the whole stressing in a threatening tone that she was "HIS WIFE!!!" A week later he BLOCKED me on Facebook, and I hadn't even bothered to reply.
Passing this story on to multiple people (most of them women!!) I kept getting, "He sounds REALLY insecure!" One friend in England went further, though, saying he felt the guy sounded like "a NARCISIST". I looked it up... and then got VERY worried about my friend. But there's not much I can do except hope she's okay and pray for her safety.
I did imagine, however, that if I'd been in an position to confront the guy to his face, I might have channeled David Niven and said... "Now see here, old man. You're ONLY her 2nd husband. But she's been MY friend for 22 years, so if I were you, I'd watch my step."
I did start telling my friends I was now taking odds on how long the marriage would last.
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Post by rberman on Jul 23, 2019 12:54:00 GMT -5
It is always worrying when the new love interest wants his lover to drop all former associations. I have seen it happen with loved ones as well, and it makes one feel quite helpless. The mating instinct is so strong as to override other considerations.
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Post by profh0011 on Jul 23, 2019 22:36:57 GMT -5
The very thoughts that have crossed my mind over the past year. But, to put it into my own words... "Doesn't this guy have ANY IDEA who he married?" My friend is one of the most friendly, outgoing people I ever met. If her new hubby acted like he did toward ME-- who has not laid eyes on her in 18 years and am 3,000 miles away-- what's he gonna do to ALL her friends who live around her? And, how long is she gonna put up with it before she realizes there's a problem?
It's a case where, sadly, for me, geography has always been in the way. (Oh well!)
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 28, 2019 6:51:36 GMT -5
I don't recall the storyline getting much attention, at the time, until Avengers Annual #10 came out and addressed it, specifically. The general audience barely noticed it and moved on. A sort of... "What the hell was THAT?" And then you move on. And the issues that followed were of such NOTICABLY inferior quality, even before Perez moved on, that #200 probably seemed "pretty cool" for the most part, if you've only read it once, in a stack of new comics that week.
As I recall, first the art went to hell, then Bill Mantlo & Gene Colan came on (2nd-rate stories and Gene's art being MURDERED by really bad inks), and then Jim Shooter came back as writer, to COMPLETELY put the kobosh on the series. And so typical of him, he created a mess, then months and months later, someone else had to come in and clean it up (Roger Stern).
I have to disagree. I consider the Shooter Run to be one of the classic moments of the Avengers series. The Fall of Hank Pym was riveting reading that suffered only in the artistic area. They never had a top flight artist doing the book regularly ,yet still explored what happens when one of their own gets involved in a domestic dispute. They didn't know what to do or say and let Hank wander around ultimately getting manipulated by old foe, Egghead. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 28, 2019 7:03:03 GMT -5
I still contend that the story made " comic book " sense. The reader has been asked to suspend disbelief over crazier scenarios ( beings transmuting matter, resurrections , or even flying without a visible means of propulsion) but is asked to analyze someones another persons decision to go off with another being of fantastic power. Carol said she was going off with him, what were they supposed to do, chain her to the Avengers Manson ? As pointed out by profh0011 , you can't stop someone from doing something, even if it's a major mistake. Fantastic things like this story have been written since the beginning and ignored a few issues later, with no repercussions. Another writer might have restored her 5 issues later explaining that Marcus passed away from the aging machines effects and no one would have batted an eye. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jul 28, 2019 8:44:50 GMT -5
A sort of... "What the hell was THAT?" And then you move on. And the issues that followed were of such NOTICABLY inferior quality, even before Perez moved on, that #200 probably seemed "pretty cool" for the most part, if you've only read it once, in a stack of new comics that week.
As I recall, first the art went to hell, then Bill Mantlo & Gene Colan came on (2nd-rate stories and Gene's art being MURDERED by really bad inks), and then Jim Shooter came back as writer, to COMPLETELY put the kobosh on the series. And so typical of him, he created a mess, then months and months later, someone else had to come in and clean it up (Roger Stern).
I have to disagree. I consider the Shooter Run to be one of the classic moments of the Avengers series. The Fall of Hank Pym was riveting reading that suffered only in the artistic area. They never had a top flight artist doing the book regularly ,yet still explored what happens when one of their own gets involved in a domestic dispute. They didn't know what to do or say and let Hank wander around ultimately getting manipulated by old foe, Egghead. Same here. The Molecule Man two-parter alone was worth the price of my subscription! Too bad about the art during that period, though... Weiss was great for those two issues, but after Perez left the mag the Avengers had mostly pedestrian art for a good long while. |
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Post by badwolf on Jul 29, 2019 7:06:02 GMT -5
I have to disagree. I consider the Shooter Run to be one of the classic moments of the Avengers series. The Fall of Hank Pym was riveting reading that suffered only in the artistic area. They never had a top flight artist doing the book regularly ,yet still explored what happens when one of their own gets involved in a domestic dispute. They didn't know what to do or say and let Hank wander around ultimately getting manipulated by old foe, Egghead. Same here. The Molecule Man two-parter alone was worth the price of my subscription! Too bad about the art during that period, though... Weiss was great for those two issues, but after Perez left the mag the Avengers had mostly pedestrian art for a good long while. I liked the Colan art. Some say it's not his best, or they blame the inker (personally I think Dan Green is great), but even if it isn't it's still nice to look at. The only really weak period art-wise was when Milgrom was doing it, IMO.
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 29, 2019 8:03:47 GMT -5
The poor art that I refer to is from Avengers 212 on. After the recruitment issue in 211, it went down hill. I had no problems with Colans art, but he didn’t get along with Shooter.
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Post by Dizzy D on Jul 29, 2019 8:08:13 GMT -5
I still contend that the story made " comic book " sense. The reader has been asked to suspend disbelief over crazier scenarios ( beings transmuting matter, resurrections , or even flying without a visible means of propulsion) but is asked to analyze someones another persons decision to go off with another being of fantastic power. Carol said she was going off with him, what were they supposed to do, chain her to the Avengers Manson ? As pointed out by profh0011 , you can't stop someone from doing something, even if it's a major mistake. Fantastic things like this story have been written since the beginning and ignored a few issues later, with no repercussions. Another writer might have restored her 5 issues later explaining that Marcus passed away from the aging machines effects and no one would have batted an eye. You might want to rephrase that. These are superhero comics; they are stopping people from doing things every 30 days. |
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