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Post by String on Dec 28, 2018 0:41:49 GMT -5
That said, not all of Miller's material is as good. Some issues are better than others and the background subplots are more interesting than the main plot of some issues. I'm not so high on Miller's end sequence, with the theft of Elektra's body and possible revival, via The Hand. I can see that point of view about the end yet I think how Miller showed the wide range of Matt's emotional responses to her death (and possible rebirth) far outweighs any such consideration. For me, that's the beauty of Miller's creation of Elektra here; like all great creators, he adds to a character's mythos and origin without changing it. This isn't a retcon or reboot, Miller simply expanded upon a basic (yet overlooked) area of Matt's origin. The emotional and dramatic potential unleashed by such creativity is immediately visible, giving rising popularity to this long underrated character and even helped prompt Marvel to bring her back later even though Miller apparently intended for Elektra to die all along. The Elektra Lives Again GN is gorgeous to behold and quite the read. I would also recommend tracking down a copy of Daredevil Love and War GN by Miller and Sienkiewicz, a fabulous book as well. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 28, 2018 5:18:22 GMT -5
Seeing as shax is reading this for the first time, maybe we should include some spoiler tags.
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Post by k7p5v on Dec 28, 2018 5:40:48 GMT -5
I like the Rog McKenzie stuff too. I wasn't into this series when it first came out, though I did get--and still have--#181. I didn't appreciate Miller's art too much, and I preferred heroes that were more "super". However in recent years I've developed a love for pulp/noir styles, and now the book totally hits the spot. Me too. I felt the same way you did in the beginning, but I continued buying every single issue (which turned out to be a good thing, in retrospect). Then I got #191, that's when I snapped out of my stupor and started to pay attention. After reading Miller's finale, I went back to re-read the previous issues and came away with a greater appreciation for both the artwork & writing. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Dec 28, 2018 6:52:37 GMT -5
Has The Punisher even died once yet? None of which is Frank Miller's fault... it would take the bad influence of Dark Knight to make me hold hold something against him I guess. I loved what he and Roger McKenzie did with Daredevil back then; probably saved the title too. Gene Colan had done well past one hundred issues before him, so it was well past time for a change. The Punisher comitted suicide and was resurrected with supernatural powers in the poorly received Marvel Knights miniseries by Christopher Golden, Tom Sniegoski and Bernie Wrightson. Jason Aaron killed the MAX version of the Punisher at the end of his run. Gene Colan had done fewer than a hundred issues - I think he had only drawn 8 issues after DD #100. Gil Kane's issues with Jim Shooter were a major influence on Miller, whose first run concluded with a sequel to DD #146. |
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Post by rberman on Dec 28, 2018 7:43:41 GMT -5
Maybe we could walk through the issues one at a time in more detail...
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 28, 2018 8:04:11 GMT -5
Seeing as shax is reading this for the first time, maybe we should include some spoiler tags. No worries. It's a nearly 40 year old run, and I began the thread so that everyone could discuss it. I (sadly) already know how Elektra dies, and I can manage to avoid the rest. Thanks for the consideration, though 😉 |
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 28, 2018 9:00:42 GMT -5
But even in the review threads , people don’t spoil future events.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2018 9:41:00 GMT -5
But even if you haven't read this run I'm sure most posters here are aware of the highlights or big moments since it is considered a classic run. For example I passed on most of the Image creators original launches but since it was a big deal I have some knowledge of the titles/characters involved just from picking up details from various sources over the years.
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shaxper
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Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Dec 28, 2018 9:44:14 GMT -5
But even in the review threads , people don’t spoil future events. Well, a review thread has a specific sequence to it. If you're on issue #181, don't spoil #183. But there's no sequence here. It's a general conversation about the topic. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 28, 2018 10:08:36 GMT -5
The first Miller issue I read was, appropriately enough, #158 (and the issue’s masthead stated that this new artist would be someone truly reamarkable). I couldn’t disagree... This Miller fellow drew remarkably well. I wasn’t a DD reader but that one issue struck me as very adult compared to other superhero comics of the time, thanks to McKenzie’s script, Miller’s artistic approach and to the subdued but believable characterization.
My next issue was #178, which made me a huge fan.
One thing that may make us look less enthusiastically at those early issues is that they have been revisited or imitated so often since. Just like the New X-Men, Daredevil back then was a trend-setter. Still one of my favourite runs, though!
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Post by String on Dec 28, 2018 12:54:44 GMT -5
Seeing as shax is reading this for the first time, maybe we should include some spoiler tags. No worries. It's a nearly 40 year old run, and I began the thread so that everyone could discuss it. I (sadly) already know how Elektra dies, and I can manage to avoid the rest. Thanks for the consideration, though 😉 Well, as you say, given the intervening years, I would think Elektra's fate would probably be common knowledge among fans by now even if you've never read the arc. I would think this death would rank among the top 5 deaths ever for Marvel (right up there with Jean Grey in terms of impact on a character and title). Even back then, before the internet, it was easy to discern. I first read DD around #196 with O'Neill and Janson which dealt with some of the fallout. If you were a new reader like me, reading the letters pages at that point helped spoil what happened. So knowing the result (without the specifics) only encouraged me more to seek out the back issues to read. Also of help back then was this issue that I received eagerly as part of a comic trade I made with another kid in my neighborhood:  An in-depth interview with Miller and Janson on their work on DD overall, their influence(s) and their lasting impact. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 28, 2018 13:05:35 GMT -5
I got #162 and 163 when they came out, then for some reason I didn't get the title for awhile even though I loved #163 having also read Iron Man #131-133 with the Hulk involved in them. It could be some other kids bought them from the corner shop racks before I could see them. I did pick it up again for #168 and 169 and a bit sporadically for awhile after that though I did catch #180-184 for sure. On the heels of Phoenix, I did find the Elektra tragedy a bit of a yawn but logical for the character. It didn't excite me particularly as a hugely important milestone like her introduction seemed, and I was dismayed how they sort of kept her ghost around for so long after starting with #182, just like they did with Phoenix. I think there was a What If Elektra Had Lived right after the issue with What If Phoenix Had Lived, bleh. People like the characters, the company likes these characters because the people like them and they make money... um, why kill them in the first place? So you can bring them back over and over no matter how unlikely the premise for their returns? And why so often the strong female characters anyway? Has The Punisher even died once yet? None of which is Frank Miller's fault... it would take the bad influence of Dark Knight to make me hold hold something against him I guess. I loved what he and Roger McKenzie did with Daredevil back then; probably saved the title too. Gene Colan had done well past one hundred issues before him, so it was well past time for a change. Actually maybe he was a bad influence on Chris Claremont, his ninja stuff seemed to start out of working with Miller, just need the Turtles and he could've made some pretty lucrative soup I guess but I really disliked seeing Kitty Pryde in The X-men become a ninja or whatever that was supposed to have been she became... on top of genius and mutant from Chicago, what a normal relatable teenager. Not.  In Spider-Woman things fit much better with yakuza stuff going on in San Francisco. The ninja stuff was the time period, even more than Miller. Eric Van Lustbader had a series of bestselling ninja books, which had more than a little influence on Miller's take; plus a ton of ninja movies from Japan and Hong Kong (Shaolin vs Ninja and the like), plus the tv show The Master, the US ninja movies and a ton of other garbage. It was also hot in the martial arts magazines, like Black Belt, with tons of BS articles about ninja "techniques". 99% of it was totally historically inaccurate, starting with the black clothes. That actually comes from kabuki theater, not history. Of course, the whole TMNT phenomena was set off by Daredevil, as Laird and Eastman riffed on the ninjas and look of the thing (and Ronin) and ended up doing Miller one better. Miller also has a short piece in Bizarre Adventures #31, "The Philistine," with a whole samurai/ninja theme (Denny O'Neil was the writer). |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 28, 2018 13:09:10 GMT -5
Great thread!
I first read this run around 2003/04 when Mighty World of Marvel reprinted it. Whilst a reprint can never be quite the same as if you were there at the time, I enjoyed reading it around 2003/04. Didn't DD face Dr. Octopus in one issue?
I like what Miller did with the various characters, and I enjoy Kingpin's exploits more than his Spider-Man ones, good though they are.
I like Charles Soule's run, but Miller's run is my favourite - so far!
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Post by MDG on Dec 28, 2018 18:51:56 GMT -5
I read these as they came out (mostly my roommate's copies) and thought they were excellent. Haven't revisited them, but Miller and Rogers were probably the only artists doing interesting visual storytelling, and DD is probably the only time (with Dark Knight) that he did it and had an interesting story to tell.
And, yeah, Janson added a lot to the total effect.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Dec 28, 2018 20:46:34 GMT -5
I got #162 and 163 when they came out, then for some reason I didn't get the title for awhile even though I loved #163 having also read Iron Man #131-133 with the Hulk involved in them. It could be some other kids bought them from the corner shop racks before I could see them. I did pick it up again for #168 and 169 and a bit sporadically for awhile after that though I did catch #180-184 for sure. On the heels of Phoenix, I did find the Elektra tragedy a bit of a yawn but logical for the character. It didn't excite me particularly as a hugely important milestone like her introduction seemed, and I was dismayed how they sort of kept her ghost around for so long after starting with #182, just like they did with Phoenix. I think there was a What If Elektra Had Lived right after the issue with What If Phoenix Had Lived, bleh. People like the characters, the company likes these characters because the people like them and they make money... um, why kill them in the first place? So you can bring them back over and over no matter how unlikely the premise for their returns? And why so often the strong female characters anyway? Has The Punisher even died once yet? None of which is Frank Miller's fault... it would take the bad influence of Dark Knight to make me hold hold something against him I guess. I loved what he and Roger McKenzie did with Daredevil back then; probably saved the title too. Gene Colan had done well past one hundred issues before him, so it was well past time for a change. Actually maybe he was a bad influence on Chris Claremont, his ninja stuff seemed to start out of working with Miller, just need the Turtles and he could've made some pretty lucrative soup I guess but I really disliked seeing Kitty Pryde in The X-men become a ninja or whatever that was supposed to have been she became... on top of genius and mutant from Chicago, what a normal relatable teenager. Not. In Spider-Woman things fit much better with yakuza stuff going on in San Francisco. The ninja stuff was the time period, even more than Miller. Eric Van Lustbader had a series of bestselling ninja books, which had more than a little influence on Miller's take; plus a ton of ninja movies from Japan and Hong Kong (Shaolin vs Ninja and the like), plus the tv show The Master, the US ninja movies and a ton of other garbage. It was also hot in the martial arts magazines, like Black Belt, with tons of BS articles about ninja "techniques". 99% of it was totally historically inaccurate, starting with the black clothes. That actually comes from kabuki theater, not history. Of course, the whole TMNT phenomena was set off by Daredevil, as Laird and Eastman riffed on the ninjas and look of the thing (and Ronin) and ended up doing Miller one better.Miller also has a short piece in Bizarre Adventures #31, "The Philistine," with a whole samurai/ninja theme (Denny O'Neil was the writer). I always wondered what was the original inspiragion for TMNT, as Kitty Pryde in the Kitty Pryde & Wolverine miniseries was literarily a teenage mutant ninja. |
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In Spider-Woman things fit much better with yakuza stuff going on in San Francisco.
