shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 27, 2018 13:12:43 GMT -5
Just thought we could use a general topic for discussing the run. I just read #168 for the first time and am truly surprised by how much I don't care yet. Truly hoping I'll feel differently as the run progresses. This is supposed to be one of the high points of Bronze Age comicdom, isn't it? |
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Post by badwolf on Dec 27, 2018 13:32:31 GMT -5
I read the omnibus a few years back and thought it was still one of the greatest, most innovative runs in comics. Hope it begins to grow on you as you read more.
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Post by brutalis on Dec 27, 2018 15:00:59 GMT -5
Could also be one of those "you had to be there" at the time. Miller's DD was an amazing "new" look after all the years of "sameness" the series endured and was stagnating from IMOP. Miller brought in new ideas and his art quickly took Hornhead into becoming more a creature of the night (like Batman) prowling and hunting the somber streets of the city. With Janson on inks Miller's art improved quickly and became all the more stylized and "noirish" as well. Add in the ninja's and making Bullseye into an even stronger villain and then Kingpin comes along. Goooooood stuff. Hang in there and read more....
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Post by brianf on Dec 27, 2018 15:36:48 GMT -5
reading comics in the 70's I was never a fan of Daredevil, until miller came around.
I think the first miller drawn issue I picked up was #161 (vs bullseye on the roller coaster) and the art just popped.
but #163 sold me - DD vs the Hulk - such a cool issue!
When miller took over scripting and got more funky with his use of shadows and other visual goodies, I remember having to re-read the issues a few times to really get it.
his work on those DD issues really opened my eyes to a different way to see comic art.
I'm still a fan of his original DD run, 100%
Too bad everything I've read by him in the last 10-15 years has been bad, it's like the tank ran dry.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 27, 2018 15:43:46 GMT -5
Ah, so it's mostly the art and the tone. I definitely see those things working, but I'm still waiting to get invested in the characters. When Daredevil and Elektra are crying over each other in #168, the art is gorgeous, but I'm not invested yet. The flashback Miller gave them wasn't enough to make me long for the past they were suddenly trapped by. I really hope to see that improve in the following issues.
But yes, the art and style are impressive. I just tend to see those qualities as icing on the proverbial comic book cake, as opposed to chief ingredients that I crave in a story.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Dec 27, 2018 16:07:41 GMT -5
Did you start with #168, or some point earlier?
Personally, I'd recommend starting right from Miller's first issue as artist, #158, or if it bothers you that that's the conclusion of a longer story, #159 - when Roger McKenzie was still scripting the series. I know there's a bunch of purists who claimed that DD only got good when Miller took over as writer, but I think those initial 10 or so issues written by McKenzie are quite good, and they set the stage for what came later. By the time #168 rolled around I was deeply committed to the series.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 27, 2018 16:42:27 GMT -5
Did you start with #168, or some point earlier? Personally, I'd recommend starting right from Miller's first issue as artist, #158, or if it bothers you that that's the conclusion of a longer story, #159 - when Roger McKenzie was still scripting the series. I know there's a bunch of purists who claimed that DD only got good when Miller took over as writer, but I think those initial 10 or so issues written by McKenzie are quite good, and they set the stage for what came later. By the time #168 rolled around I was deeply committed to the series. I have and read #161 and #162. #161 has extremely different characterizations for Turk and his employer from what comes later on. #162 was a filler issue (though a decent one). What I have after that is the Elektra arc and (much later on) Born Again, so that's what I am reading. |
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Post by badwolf on Dec 27, 2018 16:47:02 GMT -5
I like the Rog McKenzie stuff too.
I wasn't into this series when it first came out, though I did get--and still have--#181. I didn't appreciate Miller's art too much, and I preferred heroes that were more "super". However in recent years I've developed a love for pulp/noir styles, and now the book totally hits the spot.
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 27, 2018 17:05:58 GMT -5
I read and enjoyed much of Marv Wolfman's run, which still had the swashbuckling daredevil and introduced Bullseye. I also enjoyed the Gil Kane and Jim Shooter co-plotted run on Daredevil, with Heather Glen's father manipulated by The Purple Man. It does much to add a darker edge to DD, which foreshadows some of Miller. It also has Heather learning Matt Murdock's secret, as Daredevil.
I find that Miller evolves as he goes along and that Roger MacKenzie helps plant those seeds. The first Elektra issue is actually a deliberate homage to the Spirit story Sand Saref. It really does take her return to get you invested, as you see how DD reacts to her amorality and how it affects her relationship to the Kingpin. It kaes the overall arc to fully appreciate it.
That said, not all of Miller's material is as good. Some issues are better than others and the background subplots are more interesting than the main plot of some issues. I'm not so high on Miller's end sequence, with the theft of Elektra's body and possible revival, via The Hand.
While I enjoyed Miller's work, I hated how everyone that followed kept it that dark world and forgot all about the wisecracking, swashbuckling Daredevil. Even Miller had him crack jokes, now and then. Batman had similar problems, after Dark Knight and Year One. I really missed the Batman of the Bronze Age, who occasionally smiled.
One thing that does get glossed over is how much Josef Rubinstein and Klaus Janson added to Miller's art. A lot of hat people attributed to Miller came in the inking/finishing stage.
Also worth checking out is the black & white Elektra story from Marvel Preview/Bizarre Adventures #28 (the book was retitled BA, with issue 25, after using that as a theme title in Marvel preview #20 and 23). That was recolored and included in the Frank Miller Daredevil and in The Elektra Saga, which reprinted the Elektra components of the Daredevil series, in a 4-issue mini-series.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 27, 2018 17:08:09 GMT -5
Wow. Okay, nevermind.
I just read #169 and LOVED it. The action, the unexpected balance of humor, but most importantly the characterization! I understood both Daredevil and Bullseye in a way that drew me in and truly made me care about their hero/antagonist relationship.
Really, the only part of this issue I still didn't care about was Elektra.
But I am hooked now!
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2018 17:56:21 GMT -5
While I enjoyed Miller's work, I hated how everyone that followed kept it that dark world and forgot all about the wisecracking, swashbuckling Daredevil. Even Miller had him crack jokes, now and then. Batman had similar problems, after Dark Knight and Year One. I really missed the Batman of the Bronze Age, who occasionally smiled. I totally agree with this. While I loved Miller's version of DD I still prefer Kesel's version (the swashbuckler). Kesel's run is still my favorite DD run. DD (and Batman too) suffered for decades as each writer tried to "copy" Miller's formula and failed. DD became one dimensional after awhile as each writer had him suffer tragedy after tragedy until it became a joke. I dropped DD around the time Bendis came on the book and tried it sporadically until Waid pulled me back on a regular basis.
But yeah Miller's DD was/is a classic. It was just so different at the time it came out. Just a great run.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 27, 2018 19:48:02 GMT -5
I'm a huge Frank Miller Daredevil Fan ... one of my favorite books in Marvel Comics.
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Post by Icctrombone on Dec 27, 2018 22:27:44 GMT -5
Maybe you should have started with the beginning, like 158. The Elektra story is another layer on top of what came previously.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 27, 2018 22:36:04 GMT -5
Maybe you should have started with the beginning, like 158. The Elektra story is another layer on top of what came previously. I'm at #172 and feel like I've missed nothing. #161 was the only issue prior to #168 that's been referenced. Anyway, this run is continuing to rock my world. Whatever possessed Miller to revive Kingpin? What he does with the character is amazing. |
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Post by beccabear67 on Dec 27, 2018 23:35:53 GMT -5
I got #162 and 163 when they came out, then for some reason I didn't get the title for awhile even though I loved #163 having also read Iron Man #131-133 with the Hulk involved in them. It could be some other kids bought them from the corner shop racks before I could see them. I did pick it up again for #168 and 169 and a bit sporadically for awhile after that though I did catch #180-184 for sure. On the heels of Phoenix, I did find the Elektra tragedy a bit of a yawn but logical for the character. It didn't excite me particularly as a hugely important milestone like her introduction seemed, and I was dismayed how they sort of kept her ghost around for so long after starting with #182, just like they did with Phoenix. I think there was a What If Elektra Had Lived right after the issue with What If Phoenix Had Lived, bleh. People like the characters, the company likes these characters because the people like them and they make money... um, why kill them in the first place? So you can bring them back over and over no matter how unlikely the premise for their returns? And why so often the strong female characters anyway? Has The Punisher even died once yet? None of which is Frank Miller's fault... it would take the bad influence of Dark Knight to make me hold hold something against him I guess. I loved what he and Roger McKenzie did with Daredevil back then; probably saved the title too. Gene Colan had done well past one hundred issues before him, so it was well past time for a change. Actually maybe he was a bad influence on Chris Claremont, his ninja stuff seemed to start out of working with Miller, just need the Turtles and he could've made some pretty lucrative soup I guess but I really disliked seeing Kitty Pryde in The X-men become a ninja or whatever that was supposed to have been she became... on top of genius and mutant from Chicago, what a normal relatable teenager. Not.  In Spider-Woman things fit much better with yakuza stuff going on in San Francisco. |
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In Spider-Woman things fit much better with yakuza stuff going on in San Francisco.