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Post by rberman on Mar 2, 2019 6:22:06 GMT -5
Squadron Supreme #2Synopsis: We are a month into the Utopia Plan and the Squadron is making food shipment deliveries, via power prism. They announce that the roads have been cleared and the food production industry is back in full swing. Unh-hunh.......what about the farmers? What about food safety inspection? How could production get up to speed quickly enough to eliminate the need for supplemental shipments, as Dr Spectrum indicates? Where did the Squadron's food supplies come from? Nuke goes off to see his parents, whose condition has worsened and who tell him that radiation poisoning caused their cancer. Thoughts: The emotional factor is a major component of this issue, as we see how Tom is......forgive the term....."belittled" and ignored. Nuke is frantic about his parents and stricken with guilt because his powers are what is killing them. Tom wants to help but knows that scientists have been researching for decades, with no real viable solutions, other than radiation and chemotherapy. Tom isn't doing any better; but, he has built a time machine and goes to the future for a cure. however, he has to face the moral question of whether a cure that will save thousands, if not millions, is worth the death of one life, deliberately. Tom decides it isn't, which is probably correct, as he has no proof that the cure actually works or if Scarlet Centurion will really give it to him. The food bit could have easily been explained as "Super-science makes crops grow extra fast" or "harvested from fields in a pocket universe where time goes more quickly." But your point is well taken the Gruenwald didn't offer such an explanation. The "my super-powers gave my parents cancer" is interesting inasmuch as Watchmen would have a similar plot a little over a year from now. Coincidence? How common is that story? "My enemy offers me the cure to my terminal disease, if I betray my colleague" was also a plot element in Peter B. Gillis' Strikeforce:Morituri in 1987. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 2, 2019 11:41:19 GMT -5
Well, the nuclear issue can be more directly tied to atomic research during the Manhattan project and after, as there were several lawsuits out there, relating to exposure from the Bikini Atoll Tests, work at Alamogordo, the Nevada tests, the atomic battlefield tests and more. There were some major news stories in the mid-80s, about how high exposure was, after some declassifications and Freedom of Information suits. So, possibly the same inspiration.
I was in college at this time and had a friend whose father was a nuclear physicist, who was involved in the Bikini Atoll tests and had leukemia. The family had been trying for some time to get compensation from the government; but, were hitting all kinds of roadblocks (old story, with government-related health problems).
The idea of introducing poisonous substances into everyday things to weaken a superhero is also a plot point in Robert Mayer's novel, Superfolks. The hero, Mood Indigo, has seen his powers steadily decrease over the years. It turns out that one of his enemy introduced Cronkite (he's from the planet Cronk; there are a lot of 70s pop culture references) into just about every major element of manufacturing; so, he is always surrounded by trace levels of Cronkite. Scarlet Centurion is suggesting the same thing. Ironically, Superfolks is the book from which Grant Morrison accused Alan Moore of swiping ideas. Michael Moorcock would have a few words about pots and kettles.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Mar 2, 2019 12:31:08 GMT -5
Scarlet Centurion is, essentially, an alternate universe Kang the Conqueror. Using the JLA pastiche template, he should be more in line with the Lord of Time or the Time Trapper; but, Gruenwald goes straight to Kang (and the Lord of Time was fairly derivative of Kang, minus the Kirby brilliance). He will return in the graphic novel sequel to this maxi-series. I forget; when Scarlet Centurion first appeared, was he revealed as an alternate identity of Kang's? Whatever the case, I thought the revival of the character in this context was a nice touch, since he wasn't from the mainstream continuity, quite, but was also an available conceptual character. The idea of introducing poisonous substances into everyday things to weaken a superhero is also a plot point in Robert Mayer's novel, Superfolks. The hero, Mood Indigo, has seen his powers steadily decrease over the years. It turns out that one of his enemy introduced Cronkite (he's from the planet Cronk; there are a lot of 70s pop culture references) into just about every major element of manufacturing; so, he is always surrounded by trace levels of Cronkite. Scarlet Centurion is suggesting the same thing. Ironically, Superfolks is the book from which Grant Morrison accused Alan Moore of swiping ideas. Michael Moorcock would have a few words about pots and kettles. What few people mention is that this particular plot point was also stolen by Mark Waid in the Amalgam Comics' Super Soldier title. |
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Post by berkley on Mar 4, 2019 18:32:21 GMT -5
Superfolks is great, a book anyone interested in superhero comics should read. Morrison's charge doesn't impress me as in any way substantive, and I ascribe it to the weird, ambivalent, and generally messed-up nature of his personal and professional feelings towards Moore.
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Post by berkley on Mar 4, 2019 18:52:04 GMT -5
I have those first Perez Avengers, what I liked was there were multiple stories running concurrently, opposite of modern decompression; you got a lot of story for your quarter and many reasons to want to get the next ish. Yeah, just really, really, well put together comic books. The plotting was great with (as you said) LOTS going on, the characterization was clear and distinct, the content of the stories were moving into topics that US comics had never touched on. And he's seamlessly merging the romance and western titles into superhero continuity. Englehart's stuff is the last time I ever cared about Marvel continuity (this is before I was born, of course) because he's the last writer who did anything with Marvel continuity I thought was interesting. Englehart was so far ahead of any other Marvel writer at the time. Every basic element of writing is on point, and the formal storytelling is just levels above. And he's good at both light-hearted and fairly intense scenes. (Or going back and forth in the middle of scenes!) I'm re-reading this arc right now and, man, it just slays me. This is the best the "616" Avengers ever were, and his Cap and Doc Strange were even better! * Well, except for Geber. Maybe Doug Monech. Shaxper likes Doug Monech. Catching up on this thread, going backwards.
Yes, this is my personal high-point for the Avengers as well. One of my great regrets in comics is that the Englehart+Perez run on the series didn't continue for another 50 to 75 issues (another is that his Doctor Strange run was cut off around the same time). I think Englehart had enough ideas to last him that long, which would have brought them up to the early 80s, by which time Perez's style had changed to something not quite as much to my liking (Codystarbuck jokingly mentioned how "healthy" Perez's Patsy Walker looked in these early issues but I actually do find that his female characters started looking unhealthily thin and angular in his 80s work).
Anyway, it really is too bad that much of Perez's best work as an Avengers artist was done after Englehart was forced off the series. |
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Post by berkley on Mar 4, 2019 19:06:27 GMT -5
A few more random comments:
I've always hated that Lady lark costume: the feathers, the hair-matching colour, the strapless, evening-gown style top ... bleah.
And Power Princess's is pretty weak too: I suppose they were going for a sort of ancient Greek look or something but it looks more like she just grabbed some curtains, wrapped them around her and tied it with a belt at the waist.
Englehart's Avengers was notable for many things but one I always like to mention (mainly because no one ever seems to agree with me, so if I don't say it, no one will) is that Moondragon was a great character in that run, much different to what she became in the hands of later writers. I won't get into details, but would just advise anyone reading those issues, whether for the first time or the 20th, pay attention to her dialogue and try to see where that difference lies.
I remember Killer Kowalski very well from Montreal's Grand Prix Wrestling show we used to get on our channel back in the early 70s. Other regulars included Andre the Giant, Edouard Carpentier, the Vachon brothers, and many others.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 4, 2019 22:21:32 GMT -5
Scarlet Centurion is, essentially, an alternate universe Kang the Conqueror. Using the JLA pastiche template, he should be more in line with the Lord of Time or the Time Trapper; but, Gruenwald goes straight to Kang (and the Lord of Time was fairly derivative of Kang, minus the Kirby brilliance). He will return in the graphic novel sequel to this maxi-series. I forget; when Scarlet Centurion first appeared, was he revealed as an alternate identity of Kang's? Whatever the case, I thought the revival of the character in this context was a nice touch, since he wasn't from the mainstream continuity, quite, but was also an available conceptual character. I was always under the impression that he was one of his lesser-known identities (at least, I didn't see it nearly as much as Kang or Immortus), though during Kurt Busiek's Avengers run, the identity was held by Marcus, Kang's son. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2019 22:23:25 GMT -5
A few more random comments: I've always hated that Lady lark costume: the feathers, the hair-matching colour, the strapless, evening-gown style top ... bleah. And Power Princess's is pretty weak too: I suppose they were going for a sort of ancient Greek look or something but it looks more like she just grabbed some curtains, wrapped them around her and tied it with a belt at the waist. Me too, and that's one of many reasons that I did not care for it at all and offers very little imagination at all ... and both Lark and Princess doesn't hold candle to the DC Powerhouses of Wonder Woman, Zatanna, Black Canary, and the likes.  Lady Lark is the Worst In the above post ... codystarbuck mentioned that the Covers did the group did not give them one ounce of Justice and that's why Marvel's did a poor job on it. I had a hard time taking this group seriously, the Costumes of this group is the worst team costumes ever. |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 4, 2019 22:29:08 GMT -5
Another Bad Picture of Squadron Supreme How anyone here can take this image seriously ... I can't ...
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Post by berkley on Mar 5, 2019 0:06:17 GMT -5
Some of them aren't bad, just a little bland. And I must say, from what I've seen online of DC's Avengers stand-ins they were even more poorly designed.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2019 1:38:50 GMT -5
The problem with the costumes were that they had to be whipped up rather quickly, since the Squadron was pretty much a parody, from the get go. Even in later stages, they were just kind of thrown out there; so, I doubt the artist had much time to really refine things. A lot of artists spend time developing characters before they debut, refining the costume and the look. I've seen some materials for the development of V For Vendetta, and David Lloyed went through several ideas, before they settled on the Guy Fawkes mask and the period costuming. At one point, he was in a military outfit and balaclava. Grant Morrison's Zenith went through a few revisions, before Steve Yeowell hit upon the right style of jacket and a more pop star look that they wanted.
The Squadron had the added limitation that it needed to invoke the JLA, visually, as well as in name, powers, and personality.
Power Princess, I agree is pretty bad, in the Defenders. She got a decent makeover in Squadron Supreme, even if it was fairly basic, in style. Lady lark got an upgrade, too. I suspect that was the first time and amount of development time was spent on the characters and costumes.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2019 2:15:42 GMT -5
Squadron Supreme #3 Not overly fond of the coloring, on this one. Brighter reds, yellows and oranges would suggest more of a clash of energy. The buildings suggest the peril of the battle to a populated area; but, having the buildings looming closer would do more to suggest the peril. Creative Team: No changes. Synopsis: Power Princess records a PSA about the new gun registration laws. Even the President suggests this might not be easy, or even lawful, given the Second Amendment. Zarda dismisses this matter of factly, as the Squadron knows best. Dr Spectrum plays a prank on her and uses the power prism to slit the strap of her leotard, exposing her breasts to one of the soldiers, who played aggressor, in the film. Zarda isn't embarrassed by the exposure, as her society was beyond that; but, she is angry with Spectrum for deliberately trying to humiliate her. She threatens him and says he will soon pay for his callous behavior. The team have their meeting and finally address Nuke's absence. Tom Thumb, out of guilt, keeps quiet about his knowledge. Zarda nominates Spectrum to go find him. He heads to his hometown and eventually runs down a nearby hospital, after Tom had mentioned that Nuke's parents had been ill. Spectrum learns of their deaths and tracks down Nuke's younger brother, who is living with new guardians. he helps Spectrum find the grieving Nuke, at a cemetary. Nuke is grieving and angry and growing imbalanced. He is also losing control of his powers. he goes to take it out on Tom Thumb, when Spectrum tries to stop him. he learns just how powerful Nuke has become.  Spectrum tries using strategy to out-maneuver Nuke; but, his power is a threat to the entire area. Spectrum wraps him in an energy bubble; but, Nuke's radiation and energy output continues to grow. Spectrum increses the density of his sphere and Nuke eventually burns out and destroys the oxygen within the sphere, killing himself. Spectrum is overcome with grief and guilt.  While this has gone on, Whizzer, Arcana, and Amphibian have been dispatched to the Southwest, where a riot at a gun factory has occurred. People are stocking up on guns and ammo, to protect themselves from the Squadron, if and when they lose control and attack the populace, again. During their earlier meeting, the Squadron discussed potential resistance to the new laws. The story ends with Spectrum seeing Nuke's brother to tell him of his death and his part in it. The boy accepts it pretty easily and forgives Spectrum. Thoughts: here we see the cracks starting to split, in the Utopia Program. Before, they were getting food to people, fixing utilities, communications, and transportation. Now, they are taking rights away from people. Gruenwald tries for a balanced argument; but it reads rather one-sided; though, given recent history, it makes a point. Gruenwald never really addresses the constitutionality of taking away weapons, although this is a registration program. However, the military and law enforcement are being disarmed, with non-lethal weapons being substituted. One person's non-lethal can easily be a deadly weapon, in the wrong circumstances, as tasers have proven. Gruenwald brings up fear as a motivator for arming and defying the law; but, doesn't really explore it much. fear is the key factor that drives gun sales, which is why the pro-gun lobby and the arms industry use it to sell their agendas and products. Sensationalism in the media helps fuel the fear, which is why advertising is such a major factor in how news broadcasts are structured. Stories that help fuel heightened states of anxiety are quickly followed by soothing advertisements. Buy our products and your worries will be solved. With the gun industry, it is fear of criminals, psychotics and "them." They may be coming for you; are you armed? The flip side of that is that, in this world, there is justification for that fear. The Squadron aided an alien entity in turning America into a fascist state, where people were jailed for dissent, and war was launched against other nations, undermining their sovereignty. The Squadron was under the mental domination of Overmind and Null; but, who's to say it couldn't happen again. What if guns are only the start? Also, it wasn't that long ago that things had broken down and gangs were terrorizing cities and rural areas. Has all of that really been resolved? Gruenwald is trying to bring in real world concerns; but, he really doesn't spend much time exploring it. he is very much wrapped up in the idea that superheroes can make it happen; 'cause, comics! Now, to a certain extent, that fits within the structure of the Silver and bronze Age JLA; they were able to make just about anything happen, with enough perseverance and splitting and regrouping of teams. However, I think he is spending a bit too much time throwing out ideas, then not following them up, to, instead, focus on superhero action scenes. There is a lot of character stuff happening, too; but, the ideas just kind of get left on the table. Character is the strong point of this issue, as we first see Spectrum as a jerk, as he, essentially, sexually harasses Power princess; and, is lucky his testicles don't get rammed up to his throat, via the long journey. Zarda gets him back for his insensitivity by nominating him to go find Nuke and bring him back into the fold. This sets Spectrum on a collision course for Nuke, someone he kind of sneers at, who he soon learns has suffered immense loss. Spectrum isn't able to handle the situation, beyond using his powers, resulting in Nuke's death. he fails in his mission and is racked with gult. He now sees what Zarda meant when she said he would pay for his behavior. His flippant attitudes caused the death of one of his teammates and it is his fault. We also see, briefly, that the team is sleeping in co-ed quarters, due to space limitations. This causes some problems, as Arcana sleeps in the buff! Also, Amphibian has a literal water bed, as he must be immersed in water, periodically. So, lots to chew on and much grief and guilt. The Utopia Program is in a rough shape. Will the team recover?
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2019 3:03:11 GMT -5
Squadron Supreme #4 Now, I personally think this is the best over of the series. It gets to the heart of the plot and isn't crowded with extraneous details, backgrounds or effects. the colors pop more and the image sells the seriousness of what happens in the story. Creative Team: Sam Delarosa is the new inker and Mark Philips is the new colorist. Synopsis: The Squadron are attacking a military base, where a general and his men have defied the order to disarm. The team are using Tom Thumb's force field belts to protect against bullets. Blue Eagle and Lady Lark smash into a building and BE sets up the Ultravox Modulator, then he and Lady Lark reap the Wild Wind... Lady Larks sonic scream sets off a tone that affects the sleep centers of the brain and pacify the soldiers. Power Princess absorbs an artillery shell, from a tank, though she can't do much of that. Amphibian is able to bend the tank's cannon and render it harmless, then he and PP tip the tank on its side.  Whizzer zooms around grabbing weapons and a soldier with a rocket launcher hits Golden Archer's sky sled, dumping him out. Arcana brings up a wind and breaks his fall; but, a soldier nearly greases him, until Whizzer rips the gun out of his hands. GA is shaken by coming so close to death and decides that maybe it is time he got serious about life and proposed to Lady Lark. He and Whizzer check in on Dr Spectrum, who has taken leave of a combat role and is dumping weapons into a furnace for destruction. he is still grieving over Nuke's death and can't face endangering anyone else. At the meeting, they state that the military has now been disarmed and their attention will turn to law enforcement, which they think may be a bigger battle. meanwhile, Tom Thumb unveils his new Behavior Modification device.  The device allows the user to add new suggestions to the brain, forcing the subject to incorporate that into their personality. he proposes to use it to wipe out criminal impulses, by replacing them with more positive aspects. Amphibian immediately questions the ethics of this, as it is destroying free will. Blue Eagle argues that criminals no longer have the rights to sanctity of their minds, since they went outside the law. Arcana sides with Amphibian; but, the majority votes for it. Amphibian leaves, resolving not to be involved with the use of the device. GA corners LL and proposes and she doesn't react with joy. She confides to Arcana that she had actually intended to break off with GA and Arcana urges her to follow her instincts. They meet again and in very wordy panels, she dumps the nitwit and he doesn't take it well. he tries to goad Spectrum into a fight; but, he is willing to let Wyatt get his aggression out and Wyatt just gives up. For now. We later see Wyatt get all buddy-buddy with Tom, despite previous occasions where he belittled and insulted Tom. tom shows him how the Behavior Modification device works. That night, Wyatt slips over to Lady Lark's bed and slips her a mickey.  He then takes her and hooks her up to the Behavior Modification device. he hesitates, for a second, then implants the suggestion that she is madly in love with Wyatt and no other. The next morning, she catches up with GA and accepts his proposal and they kiss. Blue Eagle looks surprised; but Arcana is stunned. Dr Spectrum knew that LL turned GA down; but, he looks like he is pleased.  Thoughts: So, we start out with imposed gun control of the military and end up with mind-rape. This is some heavy stuff. At the start, we see that there are elements of the military who don't react well to the Squadron dictating how they will defend the country. Assuming that this has been order by the Commander-in-Chief and that the disarmament has been legislated by Congress, the general and his men are in violation of the UCMJ for failing to obey a lawful order. However, if this was imposed solely by the Squadron, without legislative backing, then they are protecting and defending the Constitution from a domestic enemy. We haven't seen much of this, so far; and it is disposed of rather lightly. this is a serious thing, as it seems that the branches of government have ceded authority to the Squadron. How has this been viewed by the Supreme Court? Gruenwald doesn't address that. It's introduced and disposed of in a couple of pages. The crux of the issue is one that Anthony Burgess illustrated in A Clockwork Orange. Is is ethical to strip away free will, in order to impose law and order? re their harmful side effects? What happens when it is used not to modify negative impulses; but, to override someone's personality and impose your will upon them? That is what Wyatt/Golden Archer does. Linda/Lady Lark has spurned his offer of marriage. She wants to sing again, more than anything and has changed in her feelings about their on again-off again relationship. Wyatt can't handle to rejection and, instead, takes away Linda's right to choose, forcing her to love him. The panel where she is unconscious, under the machine, says it all. her body is in a pose that suggests physical rape, as she sis lumped, unconscious, her legs spread apart. It may or may not have been deliberately staged; but, it drives home what is happening. Wyatt rapes her free will and bends Linda to his; which is no different than the physical act of rape. This issue probably comes the closest to paralleling Watchmen, with the attempted rape of Sally Jupiter, by the Comedian. For Moore & Gibbons, this was a central event, as it casts a long shadow over Laurel's life and relationship with her mother, is one element of Sally's complicated relationship with her teammates; and, especially Eddie/Comedian. It has major repercussions. Gruenwald hasn't quite gone that deep, yet; but, he is on the fringes of the territory. We will have to see how this plays out. One thing is for certain, Golden Archer has crossed a line, from which he probably can't come back. The idea of correcting criminal impulses is an old one, leading to much unethical research and surgery, both in fact and fiction. Doc Savage performed surgeries on criminals to remove their criminal impulses, which was then later used for a crossover, between the Shadow and Doc Savage, when DC held the license, in the late 80s. These ideas ignore the parts that neglect, abuse, and economic deprivation have on fostering criminal behaviors. You can't magically fix these thing with surgery or mind control. As long as socio-economic factors and psychological trauma continue to playa part in a person's development, criminal activity and behavior will continue. We see the flaw in just about every utopian vision; who decides what a utopia looks like? What happens to those who reject that idea? Do they get a choice to join or not? Again, Gruenwald is playing with some big ideas; but, letting superhero conventions get in the way. This issue is probably his strongest yet, though, as he really delves into the loss of free will to establish this "utopia."
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 5, 2019 5:28:57 GMT -5
I haven't read SS in forever, but I'm really impressed with the storytelling here. There's a lot of really interesting and clever camera work that doesn't brea the flow of the story. I'd probably like this less if Perez drew it, honestly.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 5, 2019 12:00:42 GMT -5
I haven't read this in decades, either. I actually like Bob Hall's artwork, for the most part.
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