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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 5, 2019 14:08:56 GMT -5
For me, much of the writing and artwork are the perfect example of Marvel, under Shooter, in the later stages. The page layouts, the story beats, the depiction of the action scenes; you basically saw the same set up in the majority of Marvel's magazines. On the plus side; you could pick up a random comic and get a pretty decent, exciting story, with decent visuals. On the negative side, it really stifled creativity. You don't see as much of that creative explosion that Marvel had in the 70s. Sales were better across the entire line, but, not many chances were being taken. For a younger reader, it probably wasn't an issue. For someone like me, who had been reading comics for over a decade, it just felt like more of the same old, generic story. By contrast, DC had taken the gloves off and there were all kinds of exciting things coming out of there. There were also their own generic books; but, they were the background noise. The indies were also in a period where a lot of alternative voices were coming into play, giving you a lot of variety from your comic. In my mind, Marvel had supplanted DC as the old stand by, with the rather dull comics. Like DC, there were pockets of something more, like Simonson's Thor; but, by this point, I was even pretty bored with X-Men and had moved on.
The consequence was missing the occasional book that reached a bit further, like Squadron Supreme, not to mention Marvel's real experimental wing, Epic. I discovered more Epic titles after the fact, a combination of dealing with college and military training and the fact that Marvel barely acknowledged the existence of Epic, unless Frank Miller was involved.
Bob Hall is an artist whose work I always thought was fine, and he did some nice work for Valiant. He just wasn't a guy whose work grabbed my attention. Squadron Supreme is definitely a writer's book; but, Hall is lending it good visuals. It just feels less than the weight of the story. It's like a Bob Brown Daredevil vs a Gene Colan. Brown provided some fine art on DD, on some very good stories. However, Colan breathed a life in the book and character that Brown just didn't have. Hall tells the story well; but, doesn't quite infuse it with that life, compared to how Dave Gibbons did, in Watchmen.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 5, 2019 14:23:50 GMT -5
So are you posting the very best of the very best?
Like that page from # 2 is kind of amazing. The different states of Tom Thumb and the other guy are contrasted by having the camera zoom in for three panels, unrelated panel, EXTREME CLOSE UP (a difficult technique to do well - Hall is doing a really good job at implying stuff that's happening off panel) and then a zoom out ending in silhouette. There's a lot of attention paid to negative space, spotting blacks to convey emotion... on top of specifically using contrasting zoom effects to anchor the characters in different emotional milleus. There's only a small handful of Marvel's '80s artists that are doing creative, formal comics storytelling on this level. That is great stuff!
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Post by rberman on Mar 5, 2019 14:39:05 GMT -5
So are you posting the very best of the very best? Like that page from # 2 is kind of amazing. The different states of Tom Thumb and the other guy are contrasted by having the camera zoom in for three panels, unrelated panel, EXTREME CLOSE UP (a difficult technique to do well - Hall is doing a really good job at implying stuff that's happening off panel) and then a zoom out ending in silhouette. There's a lot of attention paid to negative space, spotting blacks to convey emotion... on top of specifically using contrasting zoom effects to anchor the characters in different emotional milleus. There's only a small handful of Marvel's '80s artists that are doing creative, formal comics storytelling on this level. That is great stuff! Brent Anderson's late 80s work on Strikeforce: Morituri for Marvel was a nice exception.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Mar 5, 2019 19:06:18 GMT -5
That's cool! Someday I'll get around to reading Strikeforce: Morituri.
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Post by berkley on Mar 5, 2019 19:38:27 GMT -5
I find it hard to judge the artwork objectively because the reproductions with the over-bright modern colouring grates on my eyes, if I can put it that way.
So the one set of panels reproduced with the old colouring looks far and away the best to me of all these samples, while the bits Reptisaurius was admiring look to me like Frank Miller at his sketchy worst (i.e. nice, even brilliant at times, layouts and panel designs that he didn't bother to turn into finished drawings).
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 6, 2019 1:13:54 GMT -5
So are you posting the very best of the very best? Like that page from # 2 is kind of amazing. The different states of Tom Thumb and the other guy are contrasted by having the camera zoom in for three panels, unrelated panel, EXTREME CLOSE UP (a difficult technique to do well - Hall is doing a really good job at implying stuff that's happening off panel) and then a zoom out ending in silhouette. There's a lot of attention paid to negative space, spotting blacks to convey emotion... on top of specifically using contrasting zoom effects to anchor the characters in different emotional milleus. There's only a small handful of Marvel's '80s artists that are doing creative, formal comics storytelling on this level. That is great stuff! Mostly, I am posting key scenes from that issue, as the story is more of my interest. I just don't see SS as big artistic showcase. It has some excellent art and some good art; but, nothing that just leaps out to my tastes. It's subjective, obviously; but, this is my take on it. Brent Anderson would have been a damn good choice for this, as we would see, on Astro City. Ron Lim, Gruenwald's collaborator on Captain America, would have been an interesting choice. Hall does well with the talking head scenes and there are plenty; but, there are several where I thought they could have been more exciting. Hall kind of falls into that "house style," that seemed to prevail, under Shooter. Granted, marvel had always had "house styles," as artists were encouraged to follow Kirby and Ditko and others; but, I thought the 60s and 70s styles were a bit more lively. I do wish they had spent more time on some of the costumes. Several are drastic improvements; a few could have used a re-think. They do look a bit dated though; you can tell it's an 80s book. I suppose that is true of a lot of comics, from any decade. Paul Ryan takes over for a few issues down the road, though he wasn't quite as bombastic as he became on FF, post-Image crowd leaving Marvel.
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Post by berkley on Mar 6, 2019 2:03:10 GMT -5
I criticised some of them for being bland but when it comes to superhero costumes or superhero artwork in general, I'll take 70s-80s bland and generic over 90s excess any day of the week.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 6, 2019 2:07:50 GMT -5
Squadron Supreme #5Speaking of dated costumes.... Can't tell if the female is trying to embrace the mohawk dude or put him in a 3/4 nelson; they do look rather like 80s pro wrestlers. Creative Team: Bob Sharen is colorist, rest same as last issue. Synopsis: Golden Archer wakes up and finds himself suspended from the ceiling, in chains and restraints. Yet another bachelor party gotten out of hand? Nope, he is the prisoner of the Institute of Evil (anything like Trump University?) He is interrogated and recaps last issue, including his mind rape of Lady Lark. Turns out, it has backfired on him, as she won't leave his side and is smothering him with affection. he knew the Squadron was starting to suspect and he took it on the run (baby) and was caught by The Shape... Ape X, leader of the villains, formulates a strategy. Quagmire (the mohawk dude, on the cover, is sent for the Whizzer's wife and children. Foxfire, the limber lady trying to become one with Quagmire, goes after Princess Power's husband, Lamprey (the purple dude) is sent after Arcanna's spouse and children, Shape and Dr Decibel are sent for Blue Eagle's mother. Meanwhile, Hyperion and Arcanna are using the Behavior Modification device on convicts... They convene for their meeting and discuss Golden Archer's absence. Dr Spectrum is sent to find him. The rest spread out for their missions, leaving Tom working on a second B-Mod device. he is interrupted by the Institute, who have broken in (thanks to GA's info) and are smashing the place. Dr Decibel's sonic weapon knocks Tom for a loop, while Lamprey leaches off the energy of his force shield belt, leaving him vulnerable to Quagmire's ooze. He is then placed under the B-Mod device and brainwashed. He had sent out an emergency distress call, before, and the Squadron show up, to find their loved ones hostages, at some secret location. they give up or are taken out, then subjected to the B-Mod. Whizzer escapes and goes to a police station to pick up some confiscated weapons. He returns to the HQ and opens fire on the Institute, only for the Squadron to block the bullets. Whizzer is taken down and everyone is brought to the secret location of the Institute. There, they await Ape X's orders, when the Squadron turns on their captors and kick some keester. Turns out, Tom set a restriction on the machine so that it can't be used against the Squadron, after what he suspects happened to Lady Lark. The families ae freed and the villains captured. Whizzer is forgiven; but, wonders if he will ever be trusted, again. Thoughts: We finally meet some supervillains from this world. Wonder where they have been hiding, as Emil Burbank is the only one we have met, so far. if there were superheroes, there must be supervillains. We see that Wyatt's betrayal has spread, as his guilt and stupidity drove him right into the Institute's hands and he gives up all of their secrets. The villains then target their loved ones, who have not been secured, despite the Squadron's public unmasking. These guys aren't the sharpest tool in the shed if they didn't have security on their loved ones, after a public unveiling. Arcanna gets over her reservations about the B-Mod device, until it is nearly used on her and her teammates. The villains actually use a bit of strategy to get to the team, which is a refreshing change. Some thought has gone into interesting villains and they are a powerful lot. Dr Decibel's sonic device seems to have a wide range of uses, while Lamprey is this world's Parasite. Quagmire's ooze can block Dr Spectrum's power prism. Foxfire's abilities are never really detailed. She mostly seems to be there to grope Quagmire and threaten him if he strays. Shape is a child-like stretcher and needs to be guided. Ape X is later stated to be a female and is the brains of the outfit. There is a mix of things like the Injustice Gang, SSSV, Brotherhood of Evil, and various Marvel criminal gangs. Whizzer was prepared to kill to save his family and we see the stakes are higher than they previously thought. More cracks in the team, as he harbors guilt over trying to kill. This team is a mess and vulnerable.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 6, 2019 2:12:30 GMT -5
I criticised some of them for being bland but when it comes to superhero costumes or superhero artwork in general, I'll take 70s-80s bland and generic over 90s excess any day of the week. Well, yeah, anything beats random jackets and endless pouches. Even Wally Wood would have thought Liefeld went rather overboard. I'm happy that everyone and their brother doesn't carry some big Lego Gun. I really appreciate it when some real design work is done with characters. Alex Ross and brent Anderson have done some tremendous work, on Astro City and Ross came up with some truly memorable designs for Kingdom Come. Paul Smith really captured the period with some of his designs and stylings on The Golden Age, especially Tarantula and his design for Dyna-Man, with the Deco/Atomic touches and the Studebaker nose ornament for the chest symbol.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2019 8:19:40 GMT -5
I criticised some of them for being bland but when it comes to superhero costumes or superhero artwork in general, I'll take 70s-80s bland and generic over 90s excess any day of the week. Some of it ... pretty darn bad, agree with your assessment here.
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Post by brutalis on Mar 6, 2019 8:36:31 GMT -5
I wonder if Marvel considered SS as more of a risk as a year long 12 issue series and therefore wouldn't commit a bigger name artist to doing the series or if any of them were interested? Maybe Gruenwald or Shooter wanted a lesser name artist so that they wouldn't detract from the overall story? Even harder to find an artist who could finish 12 issues. Hall only did 6 of the 12 issues. Paul Ryan did 5 and John Buscema one issue.
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Post by badwolf on Mar 6, 2019 11:02:00 GMT -5
I love Brent Anderson's art and wish he had taken over as regular artist on X-Men after John Byrne left.
I thought Bob Hall was good on the Avengers as well, though that period is never thought of as a "classic" one (apart from the infamous Yellowjacket issue.)
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 6, 2019 11:45:27 GMT -5
I wonder if Marvel considered SS as more of a risk as a year long 12 issue series and therefore wouldn't commit a bigger name artist to doing the series or if any of them were interested? Maybe Gruenwald or Shooter wanted a lesser name artist so that they wouldn't detract from the overall story? Even harder to find an artist who could finish 12 issues. Hall only did 6 of the 12 issues. Paul Ryan did 5 and John Buscema one issue. Marvel was kind of hurting on the art front. Several of their biggies had left for DC or to the independents, for ownership. They had some rookies around, who were slowly developing. Byrne was doing FF (and heading to DC soon) and Simonson was on Thor, writing their own material; so, I doubt they had any great desire to work on it. They probably had to drag Buscema on to do the one issue. Secret Wars II was out, at the same time and had Milgrom art. Michael Golden hadn't done a series, since Micronauts, though he would do The 'Nam, the following year. JRJR was doing X-Men and probably getting big royalty checks. Not exactly a big pool. Of the rookies, Brent Anderson was developed enough that he would have done a spectacular job. Mignola was pretty rough, at this stage; he took a bt longer to develop into his signature style. Art Adams was doing Longshot. Zeck would have been an obvious choice; but, had just come off of a long stint on Captain America and Secret Wars and probably wasn't looking to do another long series, at that point. The Punisher mini came out about half way into SS.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 6, 2019 15:19:15 GMT -5
Squadron Supreme #6Another of the better covers. Less is more. Creative Team: Several changes. Paul Ryan-pencils, Kieth Williams joins Sam Delarosa on inks, John Workman takes over lettering Synopsis: Arcanna is busy casting an illusion over a large complex, in a desert region. Turns out, it is Squadron City, the new HQ and living community for the Squadron and their families. Arcanna has made the complex appear invisible, to the naked eye. The families move in and we see them get to know each other, much like military dependents who have moved into new base quarters (see The Right Stuff, when Gordon and Trudy Cooper first move in at Edwards AFB). The former Institute have been subjected to behavior modification and are assisting the team in construction and moving, as are other former criminals, also subjected o B-Mod. Everything seems all hunky dory, until we see Amphibian. He is brooding about the B-Mod devices and about being so far from natural water, as he supervises the filling of an artificial lake. he blows up at Hyperion, when he checks in, who basically tells him the majority voted and it "Sucks to be you!" Blue Eagle has grown increasingly suspicious about Lady Lark's behavior and confronts her about it. She blasts him with a sonic wave and tells him to step off. Meanwhile, the world's premiere super-criminal, Master Menace, watches from his secret complex, studying the information about the B-Mod devices. He has used the chaos, in wake of the Overmind/Null event and the withdraul of US troops to conquer the Middle East. He has visitors: Mink, Remnat and Pinball, three criminals on the run, after discovering what happened to the Institute of Evil. They ask MM to use his machines to send them to another dimension, which he does. MM contemplates the threat the Squadron represents to himself and his new Empire. The Squadron open their new Assembly Chamber and the meeting starts off badly. Whizzer reports that a warden has refused the B-Mod program. Hyperion says they will work on convincing them and Amphibian angrily asks what then, if that doesn't work? he goes on a tirade about the morality of the devices and where it will stop. Hyperion sidesteps the issue and brings up admission of the former Institute members as new Squadron inductees. Whizzer is against it based on their appearances, Lady Lark objects because of the torture of Golden Archer, Amphibian objects because they can't refuse the offer, as they have been conditioned to obey the Squadron. Power Princess, Spectrum, and Tom Thumb feel they are reformed, Blue Eagle thinks it will be good for their image, and Arcanna says they need the help and announces she is pregnant. A vote is taken, which is split and Hyperion casts the deciding vote, in favor. Ble Eagle then brings up Lady Lark's behavior and charges Golden Archer with using the B-Mod device on her. He presents the evidence of the recording of the device and Tom's alteration of the device so it can't be used against the Squadron, after LL started acting strangely. Tom admits to finding the recording that it had been used on LL; but cops out to knowing if GA did it. GA is brought before the group and confesses. The group now debates his fate. Again, opinions are split, with Amphibian calling the team hypocrites, over objecting to someone using the device to modify behavior, when they are doing the same thing. Only Arcanna brings up the moral objection that GA's actions were the equivalent of physical rape and says she could never work alongside GA again. In the end, Hyperion must once again cast the deciding vote and he votes for expulsion. Lady Lark quits in protest. Tom confirms there is no way to undo the process. That night, Amphibian sneaks in and smashes the machines and orders Ape X to erase the computer schematics. He knows Tom can rebuild; but, it will take time. He takes a sky skimmer and heads to the ocean, abandoning the team, for good. The issue ends in the Middle East, as we see what Nighthawk has been up to... Thoughts: The cracks have turned into fault lines, as the team starts falling apart. Amphibian's growing resentment to the Utopia Program comes to a head and the use of the B-Mod device leads to his departure, as well as Golden Archer's and Lady Lark's, as byproducts. Arcanna's pregnancy will take her out of the mix and the Squadron is now bringing former enemies into the fold. Amphibian calls them out on exploiting the B-Mod criminals as laborers, both the Institute and the rank and file ex-cons. One the one hand, they have given jobs to the reformed criminals; on the other, the criminals were reformed by brainwashing. Gruenwald explores the side effects of the B-Mod, again taking a page from Anthony Burgess. Like Alex DeLarge, the Institute members cannot commit criminal acts. Also like him, there are side effects. Alex would grow sick when hearing Beethoven's 9th Symphony, due to its use with images of the Nazis, during the conditioning process. The Institute members cannot make their own choices about their fates, as they have been programmed to obey the Squadron. They cannot even refuse an order of one Squadron, who is defying the rest of the team, as Amphibian compels Ape X to erase the computer records. He states they can't even refuse membership and is probably right, as the offer of membership would likely be received as a command, by their modified brains. Hyperion's actions are troubling, as he routinely dismisses objections by Amphibian and others, showing that his arrogance is greater than their collective arrogance in thinking they can solve all of society's ills in one year. Greater minds than theirs have spent thousands of years and haven't managed it. In this, Hyperion can be seen to mirror the Superman we see in Kingdom Come, 10 + years later Master Menace presents a new wrinkle. This is the world's greatest criminal, which, if you have been paying attention, makes his identity obvious. he has conquered the Middle east, which means he controls much of the world's oil reserves. He also has access to dimensional transportation devices, which he uses to help others escape. The character is shown to be a mix of Lex Luthor and Dr Doom, and his studying of the monitors, for media images of the B-Mod program, also mirrors Adrian Veidt's similar study in Watchmen. Gruenwald delves deeply into the moral implications of the Squadron's actions, in this one, and the foundation starts crumbling. Paul Ryan's art isn't significantly different from Bob Hall's, further reinforcing the "house" look of things. he handles the expressions well, which helps sell the emotions of the arguments. We finally get a reappearance of Nighthawk and his presence in the Middle East suggests a meeting with Master Menace. Bruce Wayne turns to Lex Luthor. Seems to me I read this somewhere, later on. Next up, we get a little detour, as the story moves to Captain America #314, as we find out what happens to Mink, Remnant and Pinball.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 6, 2019 16:17:58 GMT -5
Captain America #314Cover by John Byrne and Dennis Janke, swiping/homaging a bit from Dick Sprang. Creative Team: Mark Gruenwald-writer, Paul Neary-pencils, Dennis Janke-inks, Diana Albers-letters, Ken Feduniewicz-colors, Mike Carlin-editor Seeing how Carlin was Gruenwald's assistant/protege, I get the feeling that Gruenwald didn't have to make many changes to his stories. Unless Shooter required them, that is. Synopsis: Turns out I made an incorrect assumption; Nighthawk is somewhere in the US, where he comes to the Temple of Contemplation for Professor Imam, the sorcerer supreme of Other Earth. He is seeking aid against the Squadron; but, Imam's powers are weaker and he is conserving strength to pass on his powers to his successor, 400 years in the future (must be Buck Rogers). He does, however, send Nighthawk through the dimensional barrier to seek the aid of the Avengers. He appears in the middle of the Avenger's Mansion gym, as Cap is working out, which sets up a brief battle, before Nighthawk recounts past Squadron stories and crossovers with the Avengers. Cap puts his request to the current Avengers (the awesome lineup of Wasp, Black Knight, Hercules, Captain Marvel/Photon, and Sue & reed Richards). They turn him down, feeling that they have no right to interfere in another world, which has never stopped them before. However, for convenience's sake (and plot) they do it now. Kyle then decides to try the Defenders (disbanded), West Coast Avengers ("We'll get back to you;" must be at the beach), Alpha Flight (out at a hockey game) and X-Men (not returning phone calls of lesser selling titles). Meanwhile, Cap has gotten an alert, via his hotline (probably a 900 number, to pay for the motorcycle) about some guy with a flying carpet. Nighthawk recognizes the description of his foe, Remnant, and tags along. Cap and Nighthawk get the 411 from a kid and Nighthawk disappears, on the hunt. he tracks the trio of Mink, Remnant, and Pinball down to an exclusive club, called the Magic Carpet (where Steppenwolf plays all the time). A fight breaks out... which spills over to the nearby Industrial Display Company, where Nighthawk battles the crooks, on the battlefield of a giant typewriter. Nighthawk takes out Remnant; but, gets gassed by Mink's perfume and tumbles into the giant keys. Cap has tracked them down and stops the trio, because Nighthawk, being from the Other Earth, is too incompetent. They explain how they got there and ask for political asylum, even if that means jail. Cap turns them down and Nighthawk says they need to join forces to stop the Squadron and he has an idea for seeking further allies. They pop back to their world. Meanwhile, Steve rogers turns in pages at the Marvel offices, for the upcoming Captain America comic and bernie Rosenthal gets a 43 on her LSATs (and apparently lounges in aerobics wear and fishnets). However, Cap leaves her to hunt down the criminals and Nighthawk, rather than celebrate. Hope he enjoys sleeping on the couch! Thoughts: I miss Bernie Rosenthal! My favorite Cap girlfriend. This is pretty much just Gruenwald getting some more screen time for Nighthawk, since he is a bit constrained in SS. The whole issue ends up being a big homage to Batman, with the whole giant prop motif and Nighthawk skulking around rooftops. Remnant is able to create pieces of carpet, which he can control. He could probably make more money by teaming up with the Empire guy... (anyone from Chicago or who had WGN on their cable system will know what I mean) Mink has claws and can emit noxious perfume and Pinball is basically Bouncing Boy. I had to laugh a bit at Mink. When I was younger, my mother, a former music teacher), was selling Koskot cosmetics. Their big thing was mink oil-based products and I was inundated with that smell, thanks to it providing our shampoo, suntan lotion, and the mink oil she had me rub on the scar of my broken nose (golf mishap at the age of 6), to make it heal better (didn't do a damn thing but overwhelm my sense of smell). Basically,, the company was a pyramid scheme, selling distributorships, while the owner, Glenn W Turner (ironically, sharing a name with my elementary school principal) also sold them motivational materials, via his Dare To Be Great company (including a paperback book we had, that contained humorous stories that Turner would use in speaking engagements). Needless to say, my mother didn't get rich, we had a ton of that crap lying around (I used an afro comb for years, as we had a couple of dozen, for sales to African-American customers), and she moved on to real estate (which wasn't much more reputable, if you ask me). However, the local market went in the toilet, in the 70s, thanks to the Recession, the closing of manufacturing plants in Decatur, IL, and the grain embargo on the USSR, which badly hurt the agri-business companies in decatur (ADM and Staley, both of which are key manufacturers of high-fructose corn syrups and other soy bean and corn-based products). Anyway, this basically answers the question of why don't the dissenters get help from the regular Marvel Universe and sets up Nighthawk's plans to fight the Squadron. otherwise, it is a diversion in the regular Cap series. It is interesting to compare and contrast Gruenwald's writing here, which is a bit more lighthearted than in the SS series. Politics and morals are still central; but, in different approaches. Gruenwald infused a lot of political philosophy in Cap, though in a more balanced way that Englehart. Gruenwald's were of a more centrist nature, providing arguments on both sides, rather than the political allegories of Englehart. Of course, Englehart was writing post-Watergate, while Gruenwald was writing in the Reagan 80s. Very different climates. Back to our regularly scheduled maxi-series, already in progress...
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