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Post by tarkintino on Apr 4, 2019 2:37:09 GMT -5
This is of course Majestrix Lilandra Neramani from X-Men #107 (December 1977), but the story began in earnest with issue #105 (June 1977), published barely after Star Wars but clearly in production before it. Chris Claremont had been setting up that story since Xavier began having visions of Lilandra in issue #97 (February 1976). Claremont may have set up the story, but when were the Star Wars similarities (visuals) created? |
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Post by rberman on Apr 4, 2019 5:15:12 GMT -5
This is of course Majestrix Lilandra Neramani from X-Men #107 (December 1977), but the story began in earnest with issue #105 (June 1977), published barely after Star Wars but clearly in production before it. Chris Claremont had been setting up that story since Xavier began having visions of Lilandra in issue #97 (February 1976). Claremont may have set up the story, but when were the Star Wars similarities (visuals) created? That depends on which visuals you mean. The bug-like appearance of the Shi'ar spacecraft and space suits were seen quite early in the visions, before Star Wars. When we saw the interior in #105 (also on the stands before Star Wars), the visuals and language were lifted wholesale from Star Trek, including "Captain K'rk" dictating a "ship's log" as he leans on the arm of his captain's chair in a very Shatnerian manner, "Mr. S'lar" at the helm, a science officer with pointed ears, a bridge layout identical to the Enterprise, a female communications officer with darker skin, different colored shirts with a ship's logo emblazoned on the left breast, photon torpedos, and a transporter pad. And of course when we meet the Shi'ar Imperial Guard a few issues later, they are clearly the Legion of Super-Heroes.   |
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Post by rberman on Apr 4, 2019 5:36:44 GMT -5
In regards to X-Men and Lilandra, whether or not Claremont had been working on that storyline before the film's release, it's an old trope. Star Wars cribbed everything from all kinds of sources, including Kurosawa, EE Smith, Burroughs, Asimov, Errol Flynn, Alistair McLane, Leigh brackett, CL Moore, King Arthur. John Carter features a princess in peril, rescued from her captors by the her, with great ship battles in the skies. The Galactic Patrol features young Lensman Kim Kinnison ejecting from a ship in a lifeboat, with a wie recording of an advanced Boskone pirate ship, after the Patrol ship was boarded by the armored pirates. Linnison lands on a nearby planet and works to get the vital plans to the Patrol, to help them attack the Boskone's mobile base. Everyone was stealing from elsewhere. Deathlok beat the Six Million Dollar man tv series to the screen; but, not the original novel nor the first film special. The Nyctalope was a Cyborg well before Steve Austin or Luther Manning was even a thought. To be sure, there was no shortage of copying of Star Wars and its antecedents at the "House of Ideas" in those days. Here are just a couple of late 70s examples.   |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 4, 2019 7:48:10 GMT -5
Went back and added this to the review of #1. Tell me what you think. MINOR DETAILS:- At this point, Raven's face remains completely eclipsed in shadows at all times. Is it possible Wolfman was toying with it actually being Lilith under that hood? If not, I have to imagine some loyal fans were thinking it. Actually, it's really odd that Robin never considers this possibility, as Raven's actions in this story (though, admittedly, not all of her abilities) are right up Lilith's alley. After all, this is exactly what Wolfman does when he resets the team with the much later Titans Hunt storyline, where a mysterious cloaked figure shows up to unite a new team and turns out to be an old familiar Titans face behind the mask. |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 4, 2019 8:23:51 GMT -5
To further expand upon this, Lilith was constantly searching for the identities of her true parents, and in one story she learned that her mother had been fleeing from her father when she gave Lilith up for adoption, and that dark magic had been involved. Raven's origin story easily could have been hers. Also, (and I mentioned this one previously) the B story for Batman #241-242 establishes that Lilith has terrible, demonic-like powers of which she has no awareness nor control. We even see a mental projection of hers that looks a lot like how Perez will ultimately choose to draw Trigon, as well as Raven's demonic side:  So this is not any kind of proof that Raven definitely was originally slated to be a disguised and rebranded Lilith -- just proof that it could have been the original intent. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 4, 2019 8:42:08 GMT -5
I know there are lots of "daughter of the devil" stories, but I wonder whether Chris Claremont was riffing off of Lilith in particular when he developed Illyana "Darkchilde" Rasputin.  |
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 4, 2019 9:00:42 GMT -5
I like the part during the battle outside the UN when Kid Flash knocks out the last few Gordanians, and Gar, not seeing it, wonders how they won. Maybe it was just me (I'm sure it was), but I always thought the name "Gordanians" was meant to be a nod to Dick Giordano, even though the anagram didn't quite work. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2019 9:32:47 GMT -5
It has been a long time since I read those early NTT issues, but I think in the letter columns, readers were thinking Raven was Lilith (before we see Raven's face). Of course my memory on that is a bit hazy. Raven was an intriguing character to me, but Lilith is my favorite. Maybe it's the smart fashions she sports, haha!
Raven was such a heavy character with so many issues. After she was purged of Trigon in the baxter series, she really didn't interest me as much. It was fun seeing her experience emotions. Didn't she try to take Nightwing away from Starfire at one point?
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 4, 2019 9:34:53 GMT -5
shaxper wrote: "Beast Boy is now called "Changeling" and (as noted earlier) is now significantly younger than the rest of the team." You went on to mention that this really didn't gibe with his introduction to the Titans back in their original run. I know that none of the Titans in that or other stories mentioned that Gar Logan was substantially younger than they were, but as a reader back in the 60s, I always got the impression that Beast Boy was drawn to be just a tad smaller than the others, and that in general he was just less mature than the other teenage sidekicks. There can be an enormous gap in emotional maturity between a 14-year-old and a 15-year-old, let alone between a 14-year-old and a 16-year-old, which I always thought was the implied intention with Beast Boy, and later Changeling. Yes, he was a "teen," but he seemed to be a year or two behind the others, if not chronologically, then at least emotionally. As we used to say, he was emerging bass-ackwards. And who could blame the kid? He had an upbringing that can only be described as right out of Dickens and Aldous Huxley. I realize this might be giving way too much credit to the writer, but remember, the DP's writer was the very clever Arnold Drake. Beast Boy was a gigantic pain in the patoot in that comic, almost like Renfrew in his Jerry Lewis stories. looking back, Beast Boy exhibited traits that in those days simply equated with being a punk or a brat, but that today would be described as ADHD, PTSD, and ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder). Get the kid on an IEP, stat!
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 4, 2019 9:39:17 GMT -5
I know there are lots of "daughter of the devil" stories, but I wonder whether Chris Claremont was riffing off of Lilith in particular when he developed Illyana "Darkchilde" Rasputin.  I'm not sure how well known Lilith was outside of Teen Titans fandom. She guest-appeared in two Batman B-stories, as I noted, but I think that was it for her non-Titans appearances. That being said, I have seen it argued that Magik was a riff on Raven. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 4, 2019 9:44:43 GMT -5
shaxper wrote: "Beast Boy is now called "Changeling" and (as noted earlier) is now significantly younger than the rest of the team." You went on to mention that this really didn't gibe with his introduction to the Titans back in their original run. I know that none of the Titans in that or other stories mentioned that Gar Logan was substantially younger than they were, but as a reader back in the 60s, I always got the impression that Beast Boy was drawn to be just a tad smaller than the others, and that in general he was just less mature than the other teenage sidekicks. I was specifically looking for any evidence of this when I reviewed the issue, as well as when Beast Boy returned to be a member of the short-lived Titans West. Suffice to say, I saw absolutely no evidence of it, and (in fact) he seemed to be an almost intimidating presence to the team.  I can definitely agree with that part. In fact, that's different in his New Teen Titans depiction as well. As others have mentioned, he will go on to reveal that he uses humor as a means of coping with his inner turmoil. That's not something the original Beast Boy seemed capable of. Proto-Jason Todd/Terra, really! Oppositional Defiance Disorder would probably qualify for a 504. Sorry, I took your geeky educator comment and went ten steps geekier. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2019 9:45:09 GMT -5
Another thing about Lilith....some newer Titans readers often say Lilith is a Raven rip off and have no idea that Lilith has been around since 1970.
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 4, 2019 9:52:24 GMT -5
shaxper, that 504 comment made me howl!  I can only plead that nearly four years out of the classroom made me forgetful.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 4, 2019 10:42:51 GMT -5
I like the part during the battle outside the UN when Kid Flash knocks out the last few Gordanians, and Gar, not seeing it, wonders how they won. Maybe it was just me (I'm sure it was), but I always thought the name "Gordanians" was meant to be a nod to Dick Giordano, even though the anagram didn't quite work. If they were a bit hard of hearing, I'd buy it. (Giordano suffered Scarlet Fever,as a child, which affected his hearing). |
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 4, 2019 13:53:09 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #1 (November 1980)  An exciting first issue all around that sets up future conflicts, builds inter and intra character conflict, and keeps us glued with non-stop action and personality. Not a particularly meaningful first meeting of these characters, nor a particularly memorable set of antagonists and conflict, but maybe that isn't where Wolfman wanted our attention while we were getting to know these characters for the first (or second) time. As a fan of the original Teen Titans, I would have liked a little more of an acknowledgement and loving nod to what went before, but apparently no one at DC was feeling any love for the original property at this point, so that's kind of forgivable. Of course, why call it "The New Teen Titans" then? Why not a new name entirely? That "Teen" bit was going to cause a lot of confusion and limitation for Wolfman and Perez in the years to come anyway. I could be mistaken, but I think that, within the comic, they only refer to themselves as "Titans" not "Teen Titans". So, maybe they should have called the book "The New Titans" or simply "The Titans" if Wolfman really didn't want to evoke the original Teen Titans. Of course, they would eventually get around to that... and yeah, not having read this in years, and re-reading it the other day, I was shocked at how they casually destroyed a ship of aliens. That's almost unheard of in superhero comics of that time. |
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