shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 12, 2019 7:55:56 GMT -5
Sorry Shax, I just re-read that page, They DON'T reference the attack in issue #2. NTT # 2  NTT #3  "What now, Trigon? Another attack?" He hasn't attacked her in this scene, so that seems to be a reference to the previous encounter. I believe it is Raven speaking, and she is referring to herself. Look at the difference in lettering between Trigon's dialogue and Raven's. The complex father-daughter relationship at its murkiest. Trigon is twice depicted in this issue as being nothing more than a pair of menacing eyes (the second time being during Psimon's origin flashback. Sure seems like the same character is implied. Okay. But you're wrong  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 12, 2019 7:58:22 GMT -5
Dr. Light fought the original Teen Titans, even though they specifically discuss his encounters with The JLA and even The Atom. While the team calls themselves the New Titans, Dr. Light actually refers to them as the New Teen Titans. I thought that implied his past knowledge. He thinks of them as a new version (with additional members) of a Teen Titans team that he is familiar with. That's why he uses Teen when they don't. It's really "new Teen Titans" to him. Nice catch! I missed that. Still, Wolfman avoids drawing overt attention to this, even while having the team retread Dr. Light's past encounters with superheroes. I find that interesting. And yeah, I agree that villain super-teams introduced early on as antagonists to a superhero team rarely ever work out well. What are the exceptions to this rule? There must be some, but none come to mind. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 12, 2019 8:04:33 GMT -5
Okay Shax, you got me on the dialogue coming from Raven and not the voice. But we will see about the rest.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 12, 2019 8:13:24 GMT -5
I agree about the poor motivations. Chalking them up to mind control and unexplained prophecy is sloppy writing. If Claremont were writing this, we would have seen the Five assemble in issue #1 as a C-plot, have their little walk in the cloisters in issue #2, and confront the heroes in issue #3. (There may have still been mind control, though.) Abso-frickin'-lutely. Oh yeah! Well, tropical for her planet. But, then again, isn't "tropical" a label that only makes sense in contrast to a more temperate environment? Her planet is tropical in comparison to what? And why does her entire planet have one never-changing climate zone? What next? A planet that's all desert, or all ice? A moon that's all forest? Come on, no one would ever buy into a concept that stupid!  Well, I mean, if the intent is to honor and formalize the team's existence, addressing them by code-name would seem appropriate. Plus, it creates some misdirection as to who made the invitations  |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 12, 2019 8:15:00 GMT -5
Okay Shax, you got me on the dialogue coming from Raven and not the voice. But we will see about the rest. If you know something about a future issue that I'm not recalling, it's also possible the plan changed. I can only argue for the creative intent as of the publication of these two issues. |
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Post by brutalis on Apr 12, 2019 8:28:08 GMT -5
Okay Shax, you got me on the dialogue coming from Raven and not the voice. But we will see about the rest. If you know something about a future issue that I'm not recalling, it's also possible the plan changed. I can only argue for the creative intent as of the publication of these two issues. Of course the plan with Trigon/Raven was changed. Look at the art: 2 eyes for Trigon when eventually he is fully revealed with 4 eyes. His "face" appearing within a star (fairly generic look) and not in a more "demonic style" which Trigon fully embodies when he appears. I am quite sure Wolfman had no "long term" ideas' laid out other than some basic plot ideas for Raven, Cyborg and Starfire which like any writer will tell you: the best laid plans all change as the characters are being written and the story's develop. Happens all the time based upon the time restraints making such decisions seeming as the best idea at the moment for that story and then in a few months after what happened seems out of character or is contradicted as the character has evolved. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 12, 2019 8:36:16 GMT -5
Well, tropical for her planet. But, then again, isn't "tropical" a label that only makes sense in contrast to a more temperate environment? Her planet is tropical in comparison to what? And why does her entire planet have one never-changing climate zone? What next? A planet that's all desert, or all ice? A moon that's all forest? Come on, no one would ever buy into a concept that stupid! Yes, "planets with one biome" is a goofy sci-fi trope that we just have to roll with. It's safe to think that Kori's magical command of the English language allows her to use the word "tropical" as we would. that's what we see in the very next panel certainly, and her whole flashback is ringed with green leafy vines to further highlight the rich jungle vegetation of Tamaran.  |
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Post by badwolf on Apr 12, 2019 9:03:45 GMT -5
And yeah, I agree that villain super-teams introduced early on as antagonists to a superhero team rarely ever work out well. What are the exceptions to this rule? There must be some, but none come to mind. The Masters of Evil? Although their lineup changed frequently. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants were fairly consistent (in two versions). |
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 12, 2019 9:19:42 GMT -5
And yeah, I agree that villain super-teams introduced early on as antagonists to a superhero team rarely ever work out well. What are the exceptions to this rule? There must be some, but none come to mind.gave a nod to the Avengers antagonists Baron Zemo and the Masters of Evil. I see them as the strongest, early villain team, with all of the Cap/Zemo drama spearheading their conflicts. Other villain groups did not necessarily have that very personal dynamic. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 12, 2019 11:31:19 GMT -5
Okay Shax, you got me on the dialogue coming from Raven and not the voice. But we will see about the rest. If you know something about a future issue that I'm not recalling, it's also possible the plan changed. I can only argue for the creative intent as of the publication of these two issues. I am reading the issues when you are. I don’t want to ruin the fun of discussing the books by reading ahead and “having all the answers “. Plus , the only NTT issues I’ve read in 30 years has been the Judas contract when I got the TPB. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 12, 2019 12:27:03 GMT -5
Sadly, Starfire as a sex slave at 14/15 is probably the most believable thing about her back story. It's way too common a thing, in places like Thailand and the Philippines and other parts of the world (especially those areas with sea ports). 12 and 13 is also far too common. If only half of the stories I heard about the Philippines, especially Olongapo, outside the old Subic bay naval base, then is was a pretty sad and horrific place and life for young girls. I heard tales of families selling their daughters to brothels to just survive, economically. One of my ROTC classmates, while on summer training cruise, made a port visit to Subic, was sight-seeing and had a kid come up to him, pimping his mother's services. Marv's toned it way down.
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 12, 2019 12:32:37 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #3 (January 1981) "The Fearsome Five!" I thought about that too, and chalked it up to plot convenience...even if its out of character. I would say the Fantastic Four explored that first, with the family and "frienemy" vibe (the latter between Ben and Johnny) creating a bond unlike other team books of the early years of the Silver Age. Every team antagonist is not going to hit it out of the park, so to speak. While Wolfman and Perez were building other threats, I think it was important to continue to world-build TNTT with different classes of villains--some that allowed the Titans' team dynamic room to breathe and grow before facing greater dangers where their lives would depend on being synced as people as much as any use of ability. Wolfman commented on the types of villains used in the early years: Teen Titans Companion: "How do you walk the fine line between creating a threat which is dangerous enough for the Titans to face, but not so dangerous that, logically, the Justice League would step in?"Marv Wolfman: "Oh, I didn't worry too much about the Justice League. I've never been a big fan of continuity in terms of cross-company continuity. I believed we could fit the Justice League into the Titans, but we wouldn't have to worry about them later. I only cared about the book's own continuity, so when we needed the Justice League, we would use them. I didn't think that we had to go out of our way to explain why the Justice League [wasn't there].""Most of the Titans' villains are not of Trigon's size, [necessitating] that you would bring in the entire group. And that's done on purpose, too, because you don't want to have the Justice League in all the time, because, why bother ever having a Teen Titans then, if they can handle everything? So in some cases you ignore the inter-company thing because you have to, and in some cases you deal with it when it's most advantageous to you."Sort of a mixed bag answer. On the one hand, Wolfman is acknowledging that the Titans do not always need to fall back on the "big guys" from the JLA, but at the same time, he's admitting that some of the Titans' villains are not exactly the greatest threat either. Surely, this applies to this early period in the run, since it would not be long before the title had the Titans face threats that were just as formidable as anything seen in a JLA comic of the period. Back in the 80s, I remember some fans thinking Wolfman was "obsessed with sex" (their description), and also complained about Tara Markov when her true backstory/relationships were revealed. Wolfman may not have intended for readers to form not-too-flattering opinions about his mindset, but he sort of opened the door to questions. Even among themselves, that's weird and takes a reader out of the story for a moment. The equivalent would be the S.S. Minnow castaways referring to their island as "Gilligan's Island." |
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Post by String on Apr 12, 2019 13:45:38 GMT -5
Ugh, I have to some reading to catch up on. Been out of the state on a trip that got extended due to a delay and and really didn't have access to ye ol' Interweb.
That being said, some great reviews and thoughts upon these first three issues. My initial thought is to question just how widespread Raven's manipulation may in fact be in these events. Wally's near devotion to her is the most visible sign but what about elsewhere? Cyborg destroys the alien ship and all aboard with nary a dissenting cry or tear. Dick despite apparent reservations about her and this team comfortably remains and becomes ensconced with them. Emotional control and power of empathy could help explain these odd occurrences especially as Raven keeps pointing out, she needs them specifically.
The introduction of Slade in #2 this early really doesn't surprise me all that much. Hindsight allows us to view the eventual importance and popularity he will bring to the team overall but at the time, could the readers have known of such relevance? It's certainly a credit to Wolfman/Perez's plotting that they were thinking that far ahead (especially in terms of the Wilson family) but could readers in the 60s have known similarly about the eventual importance of Doctor Doom to the FF when he first appeared in FF #5 (to give an example)?
Snippets of the team's downtime were always welcome of course but here in #3, I have to ask, if you're relaxing, why are you still in costume? Dick having his corset open is one thing but Wally is lounging in the chair, holding a book (trying to read...at night...with no apparent lamp??) while in his costume. It just looks weird. (As does Donna serving drinks in her costume).
Meh, I really don't have a problem with the Fearful Five overall. Gizmo is probably my favorite member because he always seems prepared. As for other early super-villain teams, would the Frightful Four rate high perhaps?
HIVE do start off rather generic in appearance and method. However, I think writers may be running out of cool acronyms. I can never remember what H.I.V.E. stands for (other than Hierarchy but that's about it).
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Post by badwolf on Apr 12, 2019 16:06:04 GMT -5
I liked Jinx, from a later line-up, after Psimon had taken leadership of the Five.
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Post by String on Apr 12, 2019 17:08:53 GMT -5
Okay, all caught up so here's some more pondering thoughts:
- I think Raven is doing quite a bit more manipulation that it appears here. Dick doesn't trust her due to lack of knowledge and how she keeps flirting in and out during their engagements. Yet he stays with this team. Wally is clearly infatuated with her (the difference here being that he's aware of it to some extent instead of just blind clinging). She offers Vic a home among other 'freaks'. Donna and Gar stay because of Dick's explanation (what did he explain? A witch-like girl appeared in my dreams, then in front of me saying we're destined to reunite? Would you take that at face value?)
Then there's Kory. In #2, when they let Slade depart with Grant's body, Kory is surprised by this. Raven admonishes her by saying they have to be different from their enemies by showing compassion. Yet in #1, Raven was the one who led Vic to the spot where he could rig the alien ship to blow up, an act which no one disagreed with. Where was the compassion then? They had already rescued Kory so why not let them retreat instead? Unless seeing the destruction of her enemies impressed a weakened Kory, a member of a warrior race who thrives upon and respects aggression and violence (which Dick later notices) and thus perhaps made her more open to join this new (and alien to her) team. Hm....
- Grant Wilson. My understanding is that Grant wanted to take revenge upon the group for destroying his apartment and messing up his relationship with his girlfriend. He somehow contacts HIVE and points out the group to them. They agree to assist him and using analysis of Slade, give Grant powers comparable to Slade so he could fulfill the contract HIVE then puts upon the team. He fails, he dies, Slade blames the team and vows to fulfill his son's contract.
Since HIVE apparently wanted Slade to do this job to begin with, this was an interesting form of manipulation here. Using the fractured Wilson family dynamic to achieve their goal (and at free cost no less). I'm confused though over Grant's reaction upon seeing Deathstroke. He acts as if he doesn't know that is his father Slade. Yet Grant says that he knows of Deathstroke and his skills because his father told him. Slade clearly recognizes his son Grant yet does little to dissuade him of going after the team even though he knows that Grant's powers will soon kill him. Lies and deceit seem to be the order here but the reasoning why may have to wait till later.
- Speaking of HIVE, are they trying to make a name for themselves? In the waterfront fight in issue #2, the captioning clearly states that the Titans have only been a team for less than a week. So in that short period of time, HIVE was somehow contacted by Grant about this new superhero team and decided to hire the best assassin available to take them out. That seems like a rash decision as if they were testing themselves against young heroes before trying to take on a larger perhaps more formidable foe like the Justice League. It just seems awful quick that the group gained this level of attention and animosity.
- About that waterfront fight....who exactly were the villains again? And what exactly were they doing? Dick asked Vic to follow up with any clues with his father's help but the matter seems to have been dropped or forgotten altogether (even though Wally collected Donna and Kory for this fight because it was 'an emergency').
- During that fight, Robin clearly states that they called her Starfire due to the starfire bolts she displays.
- I would agree with the reasoning behind Kory's kiss and the potential problems it may cause for her relationship with Dick.
- I have to agree with shax here, I think Raven was talking to Trigon both times. She may have been appealing to him in an effort to avoid conflict on Earth (compassion perhaps?). But this would seem to go against the premonitions we learn she has in #3 unless she was trying to avert that future. (Hedging her bet here by assembling this team regardless?)
- Issue #3's logic is wonky, both Raven and Psimon having some form of premonitions that conflict and connect. It's very interesting that upon Dick's demand about the truth, Raven still wasn't being completely honest.
Last, I seem to recall reading somewhere that upon showing a colleague his design for Kory, Perez was told that her hair was the best visual element and that he should focus on that. Which lead him to coming up with her hair forming the long streak of her flight. I have no idea if that is accurate but sounds cool to me anyway.
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