shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 18, 2019 13:43:16 GMT -5
I guess I can see it. I've argued extensively that Wolfman was deeply attached to the characters he created during the original Titans run and did something to honor each of them in the new run (Cyborg and Raven essentially play the same roles on the team that Mal and Lilith did, the names "Starfire" and "Jericho" get reused...), and Wolfman was the one to write Donna's origin (though he basically stole ideas from fan letters), so it's reasonable to assume he would feel a connection to the character. It's just odd then that he neglected her for so long. I think I edited my comment after you read it. I looked it up and found that dates for both of those interviews, and they did both call her their favorite character. I agree with you that she's oddly neglected in this series. I think I edited mine in response to your edited post, and after you posted this reply. Sorry for the confusion! |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 18, 2019 13:44:25 GMT -5
We are only up to issue #4. She gets plenty of attention later on. Actually, all of them get their own stories except Robin. Well, obviously Robin got #39, right after Donna got her due in #38. Before that, I honestly can't recall. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 18, 2019 14:09:01 GMT -5
I think I edited my comment after you read it. I looked it up and found that dates for both of those interviews, and they did both call her their favorite character. I agree with you that she's oddly neglected in this series. I think I edited mine in response to your edited post, and after you posted this reply. Sorry for the confusion! Me too. I should have typed what I wanted to say correctly in the first place. Oh well. |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 18, 2019 14:24:54 GMT -5
I think I edited mine in response to your edited post, and after you posted this reply. Sorry for the confusion! Me too. I should have typed what I wanted to say correctly in the first place. Oh well. If I had a nickel for every post I checked, re-checked, posted, and THEN went back and edited it anyway, I'd be very very rich. |
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Post by profh0011 on Apr 18, 2019 14:29:24 GMT -5
I've heard this before. At some point, I'll have to read Junior Tracy's origin in order to see. Thanks for reminding me! Because he had red hair and grew up to be a photographer, "Junior Tracy" was not only the original "Robin"... he was also the original "Jimmy Olsen"!  |
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Post by String on Apr 18, 2019 16:26:36 GMT -5
Some thoughts on NTT #4:
- Who exactly were these three sorcerers? The ones who commanded the Necromaforce! (??) They don't appear to be associated with Azarath. Based on their dialogue, they have attempted to thwart Trigon many times before this yet failed. Are they from Trigon's home dimension then? How have they survived this long with such attempts? Did Trigon actually manage to kill them here at last? (I didn't see them in the aftermath of the battle alongside the Titans and the JLA)
- Wow, the JLA does not come off looking good here at all. The three sorcerers beat them back (using the Necromaforce!), the Titans get the upper hand on them aboard the satellite (but they're holding back because still kids after all) and they get roughed up by both sides again on the mystical battlefield. Zatanna seemed the only one able to hold her own to any degree throughout the issue. Though I love the sight of Dick wrapping his yellow cape around Hal's ring hand and adding a swift kick to him. Ah, the simpler days.
- Wolfman may not care all that much about broad continuity but here, it definitely feels like I missed something in the pages of JLA. That's what I felt early on when Raven confronted the JLA during their first attempt to stop the three sorcerers and Hal immediately recognized her. Zatanna's dialogue at issue's end only strengthened that notion as if I was missing the footnote asterik pointing me to the previous JLA issue. It's an odd disconnect for this issue and story.
-Wolfman does a great job with Raven here though. Early on, she seems in control, confident of what must be done. But by issue's end, her deceptions have come to light and her team walks away from her. Again, there's little indication of why she picked these specific heroes. One would think the reason would be because they're comparable to the League's current roster since she approached them for help first (therefore the League has the abilities needed to defeat Trigon?) But that hardly seems likely though. The last scenes with Raven pleading with them is moving and unsettling.
- Why weren't the Fearful Five present in this conflict?
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 18, 2019 17:39:53 GMT -5
Is that not the problem with most comic book villains? Why did the Red Skull want to conquer earth? Why did Galactus or the Fatal Five do anything? Ultimately in the eyes of the protagonists, they are "bad" and must be stopped. Motive or desired outcome matters not because there's a real and present danger to humans (or in some cases, the universe). This is why the villains with a personal motive tied to the hero (more than Trigon at this point in the Titans book) always worked better--lifting the villain out of "common criminal" zone (essentially what happened to the Green Goblin by making him Harry's father instead of a generic hood). A world- or universe- conquering tyrant can be pretty boring, I agree. The better villains tend to be immorally pursuing some goal to which we can relate. Protecting our families (Kingpin under Miller). Being hungry (Phoenix, Galactus). Avenging a perceived or actual slight. I'm suprised by the perennial popularity of villains like the Daleks or Cybermen who have essentially one thought; they can't be reasoned with or deflected to an alternative goal. For many grown ups, the most interesting stories are those that simply show people in conflict due to incompatible agendas, without one of them having to be the "bad guy" who kills kittens for fun as well. Agreed; its why I find most cosmic or earth-bound villains (no matter their pedigree being technological, political, magical or anything else) bent on controlling "everything" a yawn. Unless there's a truly developed, believable personal motivation (in other words, not Thanos as seen in the movies) that dips into some equally believable emotional well, I tend to write it off as a villain created to be the Big Bad without really being one worthy of the heroes--or making the heroes' conflicts important. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 19, 2019 8:04:30 GMT -5
Is that not the problem with most comic book villains? Why did the Red Skull want to conquer earth? Why did Galactus or the Fatal Five do anything? Ultimately in the eyes of the protagonists, they are "bad" and must be stopped. Motive or desired outcome matters not because there's a real and present danger to humans (or in some cases, the universe). This is why the villains with a personal motive tied to the hero (more than Trigon at this point in the Titans book) always worked better--lifting the villain out of "common criminal" zone (essentially what happened to the Green Goblin by making him Harry's father instead of a generic hood). A world- or universe- conquering tyrant can be pretty boring, I agree. The better villains tend to be immorally pursuing some goal to which we can relate. Protecting our families (Kingpin under Miller). Being hungry (Phoenix, Galactus). Avenging a perceived or actual slight. I'm suprised by the perennial popularity of villains like the Daleks or Cybermen who have essentially one thought; they can't be reasoned with or deflected to an alternative goal. For many grown ups, the most interesting stories are those that simply show people in conflict due to incompatible agendas, without one of them having to be the "bad guy" who kills kittens for fun as well. I think that's also why R'as Al Ghul became interesting, as he was basically trying to wipe out most of humanity in order to save the environment, at least in one iteration of the character. His goal of saving the planet is a worthy one, but his methods are of course reprehensible. |
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Post by spoon on Apr 19, 2019 8:51:11 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #4 (February 1981)  "Against All Friends!" Script: George Pérez (plot); Marv Wolfman (plot, script) Pencils: George Pérez Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: B George Perez is now completely done with Marvel, and (coincidentally enough) this is the first issue in which he tackles the full penciling chores. Definitely an improvement. And I love the cover, which appears to be Perez inking himself. I did the same thing someone else here mentioned, checking a chronology of appearances for Raven and I saw nothing that would correspond with that meeting. I was wondering how it's determined who from the JLA is in this issue. I've never read a sustained run of issues from the original Justice League of American series. From the issues that I've read and covers that I've seen, I got the impression they weren't sticklers for keeping the same roster from issue to issue and mandating everyone show up for missions. It just seems like there were a pool or members and the writer or editor would select whoever they wanted to appear in that issue. But like I said, I haven't read much of the series. Is that how it worked? I was surprised to see Hal, because I know there were a couple of big chunks of time (when he was exiled in space and when he gave up the ring) that he was out of the mix. But it turns out this issue is so early that it's way before his space exile. I didn't think the Titans came across as too strong when I read this, but after reading everyone else's thoughts, I guess a better result would be for the Titans to be barely staying afloat in the battle. To me, Perez's Batman looks a lot like the Marshall Rogers version. I wonder how influential that rendition was at the time. Would Irv Novick be the Bat artist of that era? I don't think they were on to Newton and Colan yet. Either way, it seems very different from the Rogers style. It's something that probably had to happen given Raven's manipulation. I'm really not sure if the details of the plot are more or less confusing after this issue. I'm not reading ahead and it's been a long time since I read these issues. But I believe Trigon is involved in the next couple issues. I wonder if there powers come into place later on rather than just this particular part of the conflict. Maybe Raven's premonitions are imprecise. This is interesting, because it seems like Raven really cares about Wally. This goes to my theory, which I think I posted upthread, that Raven had mixed motives. Maybe she was attracted to Wally, and given very bizarre upbringing in another dimension with her "heritage", she manipulated him rather than taking an ethical approach to her feelings. He looks pretty intimidating. That's a lot by itself. And we're just at the beginning. I think keeping Raven's face hidden for a few issues was just to build up anticipation, given that she has a human face. The only unusual thing is the jewel that's like a bindi. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 19, 2019 10:18:11 GMT -5
This is interesting, because it seems like Raven really cares about Wally. This goes to my theory, which I think I posted upthread, that Raven had mixed motives. Maybe she was attracted to Wally, and given very bizarre upbringing in another dimension with her "heritage", she manipulated him rather than taking an ethical approach to her feelings. That's an interesting read on the character! I doubt Wolfman and Perez are going that deep, but I wish they would. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 19, 2019 11:14:48 GMT -5
NTT#4-that's one of my favorite covers and it reminds me of the cover for Teen Titans #50 (Titans West/Titans East). I was young when I read this story and remember being blown away by it--seeing the JLA and Titans fight. Loved seeing Zatanna rat Raven out at the end!
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 22, 2019 7:18:29 GMT -5
Hey shaxper, when can we expect the review of # 5 ? |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 22, 2019 7:38:41 GMT -5
Hey shaxper, when can we expect the review of # 5 ? Hopefully today, actually! Sorry. Been a crazy holiday weekend. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 22, 2019 7:45:56 GMT -5
No worries. I haven't been this involved with a review thread since ever.  |
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Post by shaxper on Apr 22, 2019 11:45:41 GMT -5
Looks like today's a bust. New review will be posted Wednesday or Thursday evening. Sorry, folks.
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