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Post by tarkintino on Apr 18, 2019 5:54:48 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #4 (February 1981)  "Against All Friends!" Script: George Pérez (plot); Marv Wolfman (plot, script) Pencils: George Pérez Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Wolfman's considerable talent aside, I found that attitude unrealistic. The characters were part of the same universe; this was not Golden Age DC, where stories were usually trotted out with no relation to another character or book. In this regard, he was no Roy Thomas about company continuity. Another error, since the JLA not only knew the Titans (well, the original members), but also had to assume no one is going to run around the streets with anything less than world-class powers or abilities. This was not the Titans from their Brave and the Bold debut. ...which undermines the value of team in the readers' eyes, as we should assume a team is aware of their ability to be as effective as others, not written off as the second-stringers or pretenders. Is that not the problem with most comic book villains? Why did the Red Skull want to conquer earth? Why did Galactus or the Fatal Five do anything? Ultimately in the eyes of the protagonists, they are "bad" and must be stopped. Motive or desired outcome matters not because there's a real and present danger to humans (or in some cases, the universe). This is why the villains with a personal motive tied to the hero (more than Trigon at this point in the Titans book) always worked better--lifting the villain out of "common criminal" zone (essentially what happened to the Green Goblin by making him Harry's father instead of a generic hood). Still, the title is young, and despite Wolfman going into this project with a head full of fresh ideas, there are many bugs to be worked out, such as who are the Titans in the DC universe--a question that should have been answered from the jump, as the team (in its earlier forms) already had a reputation as experienced heroes. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 18, 2019 6:44:04 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #4 And, speaking of Trigon, we get his origin here, and really he's just a generic villain with extra eyes. He wants to conquer more. Always more. Why? No particular reason. We are told he has no morals or empathy. He's just bad. Is that not the problem with most comic book villains? Why did the Red Skull want to conquer earth? Why did Galactus or the Fatal Five do anything? Ultimately in the eyes of the protagonists, they are "bad" and must be stopped. Motive or desired outcome matters not because there's a real and present danger to humans (or in some cases, the universe). This is why the villains with a personal motive tied to the hero (more than Trigon at this point in the Titans book) always worked better--lifting the villain out of "common criminal" zone (essentially what happened to the Green Goblin by making him Harry's father instead of a generic hood). A world- or universe- conquering tyrant can be pretty boring, I agree. The better villains tend to be immorally pursuing some goal to which we can relate. Protecting our families (Kingpin under Miller). Being hungry (Phoenix, Galactus). Avenging a perceived or actual slight. I'm suprised by the perennial popularity of villains like the Daleks or Cybermen who have essentially one thought; they can't be reasoned with or deflected to an alternative goal. For many grown ups, the most interesting stories are those that simply show people in conflict due to incompatible agendas, without one of them having to be the "bad guy" who kills kittens for fun as well. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 18, 2019 7:47:11 GMT -5
Is that not the problem with most comic book villains? Why did the Red Skull want to conquer earth? Why did Galactus or the Fatal Five do anything? Ultimately in the eyes of the protagonists, they are "bad" and must be stopped. Motive or desired outcome matters not because there's a real and present danger to humans (or in some cases, the universe). This is why the villains with a personal motive tied to the hero (more than Trigon at this point in the Titans book) always worked better--lifting the villain out of "common criminal" zone (essentially what happened to the Green Goblin by making him Harry's father instead of a generic hood). A world- or universe- conquering tyrant can be pretty boring, I agree. The better villains tend to be immorally pursuing some goal to which we can relate. Protecting our families (Kingpin under Miller). Being hungry (Phoenix, Galactus). Avenging a perceived or actual slight. I'm suprised by the perennial popularity of villains like the Daleks or Cybermen who have essentially one thought; they can't be reasoned with or deflected to an alternative goal. For many grown ups, the most interesting stories are those that simply show people in conflict due to incompatible agendas, without one of them having to be the "bad guy" who kills kittens for fun as well. I still think you can sell the classic/generic villain with good dialogue. All I needed from Trigon was a speech about an unholy crusade to bring chaos to the galaxy for the sake of his demon heritage or something. Right now, we've got no indication Wolfman and Perez see Trigon as anything other than a convenient source of conflict. Considering how much characterization they are trying to bring to their heroes, this is really disappointing. In fact, I wouldn't have Trigon explain any of this. He's too big to be concerned with rationalizing his actions to anyone. Instead, explanations should be coming from his zealot, Psimon. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 18, 2019 8:30:59 GMT -5
In fact, I wouldn't have Trigon explain any of this. He's too big to be concerned with rationalizing his actions to anyone. Instead, explanations should be coming from his zealot, Psimon. Yep. Once the villain starts talking, that brings him down to our level. Better to keep him silent, so we can believe that his thoughts and words are higher than ours. Tolkien was wise to keep Sauron silent and only known through his agents in LoTR. Jackson did show him to us in a couple of ways, but he still kept him silent, which again was wise. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 18, 2019 8:48:00 GMT -5
Interesting. What is your opinion about Dr. Doom pontificating?
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 18, 2019 9:14:15 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #4 (February 1981) So this is the big inevitable first meeting between The New (Teen) Titans and the JLA, done entirely in this book and by this creative team, allowing the Titans to look a little more impressive on their own turf. Am I the only one who spent entirely too long flipping through JLA books from around this time period, trying to find the issue where Raven first comes to them, begging for their help? Well, as Wolfman has noted on several occasions, he was concerned with this title's continuity, and not anyone else's. Well, I didn't go flipping through old JLA's, but I did look Raven up in comicdb.com to find any appearances outside of the New Teen Titans around this time and found none. As far as Raven being the creators' favorite character, I don't know who was their favorite at this point, but form reading interviews of both guys from years later, I believe Wonder Girl was actually the favorite character of both Wolfman and Perez if memory serves me correctly (though Perez said his favorite character to draw was Starfire and the character he identified with the most was Cyborg). |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 18, 2019 9:50:38 GMT -5
Looking at this cover my thoughts were Perez draws capes really well and his Hawkman was amazing. |
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Post by rberman on Apr 18, 2019 9:53:54 GMT -5
Interesting. What is your opinion about Dr. Doom pontificating? What an interesting question! First of all, Victor Von Doom really is just a man, so showing him speak is not an issue as it is for Galactus, Dormammu, Thanos, Darkseid, or some other being who is supposed to be otherworldly and indescribably imposing. I found it effective when Tom King conveyed Darkseid's will only through Desaad:  Kurt Busiek's Galactus was felt rather than heard.  Doom on the other hand is for all his science and magic just a megalomaniac dude. Having him act as if he's grand is fine, because he wants to be grand. But again, really still just a dude, so it's OK if he comes across as pompous and even ridiculous at times. Especially since Reed Richards can say, "I remember when he was a crazy would-be Dr. Frankenstein who got kicked out of college."  Better to let his minions speak on his behalf.  Ok, maybe not those particular minions. |
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Post by Prince Hal on Apr 18, 2019 9:57:11 GMT -5
rberman, is Darkseid doing the Wotan thing and removing his eye in that sequence?
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Post by rberman on Apr 18, 2019 10:17:59 GMT -5
rberman , is Darkseid doing the Wotan thing and removing his eye in that sequence? Yep! I'll be starting up a review thread on this series ( Mister Miracle by Tom King and Mitch Gerads) soon. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 18, 2019 10:38:22 GMT -5
As far as Raven being the creators' favorite character, I don't know who was their favorite at this point, but form reading interviews of both guys from years later, I believe Wonder Girl was actually the favorite character of both Wolfman and Perez if memory serves me correctly (though Perez said his favorite character to draw was Starfire and the character he identified with the most was Cyborg). Interesting. I can believe they would say that around the time of "Who is Donna Troy?" but she's pretty much the most under-used character until that point. Wolfman alluded to the mystery of her parents in the first issue, but I don't recall that, nor any significant characterization of Donna, coming up again for three more years. She tells Gar he's being gross (not even noting the hypocrisy in this, as she used to do the same stuff with the original team), and that's pretty much all I recall of her treatment in these early stories. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 18, 2019 11:10:58 GMT -5
As far as Raven being the creators' favorite character, I don't know who was their favorite at this point, but form reading interviews of both guys from years later, I believe Wonder Girl was actually the favorite character of both Wolfman and Perez if memory serves me correctly (though Perez said his favorite character to draw was Starfire and the character he identified with the most was Cyborg). Interesting. I can believe they would say that around the time of "Who is Donna Troy?" but she's pretty much the most under-used character until that point. Wolfman alluded to the mystery of her parents in the first issue, but I don't recall that, nor any significant characterization of Donna, coming up again for three more years. She tells Gar he's being gross (not even noting the hypocrisy in this, as she used to do the same stuff with the original team), and that's pretty much all I recall of her treatment in these early stories. Yeah, I found it surprising too. Wolfman said it in a 1983 interview. Perez said in a 1987 interview that Donna Troy was his favorite character, as far as person he would love to meet the most. So, that one is after "Who is Donna Troy?" at least. I wonder if they didn't focus on her more because they wanted to bring attention to the characters that they had created? |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Apr 18, 2019 11:17:36 GMT -5
Interesting. I can believe they would say that around the time of "Who is Donna Troy?" but she's pretty much the most under-used character until that point. Wolfman alluded to the mystery of her parents in the first issue, but I don't recall that, nor any significant characterization of Donna, coming up again for three more years. She tells Gar he's being gross (not even noting the hypocrisy in this, as she used to do the same stuff with the original team), and that's pretty much all I recall of her treatment in these early stories. Yeah, I found it surprising too. Wolfman said it in a 1983 interview. Ah. "Who is Donna Troy?" was published in January of 1984. |
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 18, 2019 11:20:29 GMT -5
Yeah, I found it surprising too. Wolfman said it in a 1983 interview. I guess I can see it. I've argued extensively that Wolfman was deeply attached to the characters he created during the original Titans run and did something to honor each of them in the new run (Cyborg and Raven essentially play the same roles on the team that Mal and Lilith did, the names "Starfire" and "Jericho" get reused...), and Wolfman was the one to write Donna's origin (though he basically stole ideas from fan letters), so it's reasonable to assume he would feel a connection to the character. It's just odd then that he neglected her for so long. I think I edited my comment after you read it. I looked it up and found that dates for both of those interviews, and they did both call her their favorite character. I agree with you that she's oddly neglected in this series. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 18, 2019 11:58:16 GMT -5
We are only up to issue #4. She gets plenty of attention later on. Actually, all of them get their own stories except Robin.
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