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Post by dbutler69 on May 19, 2019 15:44:42 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #8 (June 1981) I don't remember this from my previous readings and sincerely hope it's going to get abandoned. I used to LOVE Terry and Donna together -- a truly normal and loving post-feminist relationship. Don't f**k with my adolescent impressions, please! Maybe you and I are in the minority, because I liked the Terry/Donna relationship, also. I don't think he really hits on Kory or anything, but maybe I'm misremembering, too. Also, yes, I too loved the stuff with Vic. I thought it was rather touching. And yes, I too found Wally's whining annoying. Just leave already.
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Post by tarkintino on May 19, 2019 17:53:18 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #8 (June 1981) I don't remember this from my previous readings and sincerely hope it's going to get abandoned. I used to LOVE Terry and Donna together -- a truly normal and loving post-feminist relationship. Don't f**k with my adolescent impressions, please! Maybe you and I are in the minority, because I liked the Terry/Donna relationship, also. I don't think he really hits on Kory or anything, but maybe I'm misremembering, too. Also, yes, I too loved the stuff with Vic. I thought it was rather touching. And yes, I too found Wally's whining annoying. Just leave already. From the reader perspective, the Terry/Donna relationship seemed like a deliberate attempt to "shake things up" by breaking of expectations about the kind of man Donna would be in a relationship with. Most would have thought it would come "in house" (e.g. Dick Grayson, until they were made more of a sibling relationship), as another in their line of work would truly understand their special circumstances in life. Terry had no clue about that kind of life, which is (in superhero fiction) meant to be something nearly inseparable from the private life. As for Vic...no excuse for how the Simms issue was treated/handled.
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 19, 2019 21:13:50 GMT -5
I have to say they definitely did a better job with the Donna/Terry relationship than they did when they had her dating Kyle Rayner. I thought it was nice to have a superhero have a relationship that was, for quite a while, completely outside the superhero world.
After all, while it's certainly not unprecedented for people who work together to end up in a relationship, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it does in the superhero world.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 20, 2019 4:58:26 GMT -5
I have to say they definitely did a better job with the Donna/Terry relationship than they did when they had her dating Kyle Rayner. I thought it was nice to have a superhero have a relationship that was, for quite a while, completely outside the superhero world. After all, while it's certainly not unprecedented for people who work together to end up in a relationship, it doesn't happen nearly as often as it does in the superhero world. And, as this issue proved, Wolfman and Perez were far more interested writing about everyday people with everyday problems who just happened to also be superheroes. This proved that to the fans and also opened the door for that couple to face struggles and obstacles that wouldn't be resolved with fists and sonic blasts. And let's not lose the whole feminist angle here. I learned a lot about how a man didn't need to be the big strong provider from Terry's example. He had to come to terms with his own insecurity about his fiance being a superhero powerhouse, and that in itself proved tremendous strength on his part. Terry's example really influenced my own perceptions of feminism and heterosexual romantic relationships.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 20, 2019 5:40:31 GMT -5
I have to say that a relationship between Super people and Non superheroes has always been boring to me. The PTB must sense that as well, that's why many of the love interests become super powered at some point. Terry Long was a shlub.
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Post by tarkintino on May 20, 2019 5:46:40 GMT -5
I have to say that a relationship between Super people and Non superheroes has always been boring to me. The PTB must sense that as well, that's why many of the love interests become super powered at some point. Terry Long was a shlub. Probably because its a soap opera trope--the "he/she balances regular life with regular person while I have this other side they cannot understand" trope. That writing gimmick can only go so far, and in the end, someone as incredibly different as a superhero cannot be fully understood by someone who is not in their world to some degree. That's one of the reasons the Peter Parker/Mary Jane marriage never worked as a running plot, since who would believe she would ever truly understand / be able to support him, or he just "turn off" his mind to act as if he can settle into domestic life, never thinking about the world she can never be a part of?
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Post by Icctrombone on May 20, 2019 5:48:17 GMT -5
It also sets up the ,partner as hostage played out, scenario.
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Post by tarkintino on May 20, 2019 7:42:42 GMT -5
It also sets up the ,partner as hostage played out, scenario. ...or victim. After Gwen Stacy's murder, Parker struggled with "moving on," including putting others at risk if his enemies knew his civilian I.D., but they had him pursue the unrealistically managed Mary Jane relationship. At least with Captain America's early romamce with Sharon Carter, she was a SHIELD agent who faced almost as much danger as he did (and some of the same threats), so their union could not be exploited with the "look what i've brought to this innocent!" plotting. That is not the case with Donna/Terry, and ultimately, no matter the method, we know how it all ended.
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Post by dbutler69 on May 20, 2019 7:55:15 GMT -5
Maybe you and I are in the minority, because I liked the Terry/Donna relationship, also. I don't think he really hits on Kory or anything, but maybe I'm misremembering, too. Also, yes, I too loved the stuff with Vic. I thought it was rather touching. And yes, I too found Wally's whining annoying. Just leave already. From the reader perspective, the Terry/Donna relationship seemed like a deliberate attempt to "shake things up" by breaking of expectations about the kind of man Donna would be in a relationship with. Most would have thought it would come "in house" (e.g. Dick Grayson, until they were made more of a sibling relationship), as another in their line of work would truly understand their special circumstances in life. Terry had no clue about that kind of life, which is (in superhero fiction) meant to be something nearly inseparable from the private life. As for Vic...no excuse for how the Simms issue was treated/handled. I like that she went with a "normal" guy. Sort of like if a movie starlet married an accountant or something. I really do wonder if Marv & George had some sort of romance planned for Vic and Sarah. There's probably an interview out there somewhere that sheds light on that.
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Post by tarkintino on May 20, 2019 8:38:56 GMT -5
From the reader perspective, the Terry/Donna relationship seemed like a deliberate attempt to "shake things up" by breaking of expectations about the kind of man Donna would be in a relationship with. Most would have thought it would come "in house" (e.g. Dick Grayson, until they were made more of a sibling relationship), as another in their line of work would truly understand their special circumstances in life. Terry had no clue about that kind of life, which is (in superhero fiction) meant to be something nearly inseparable from the private life. As for Vic...no excuse for how the Simms issue was treated/handled. I like that she went with a "normal" guy. Sort of like if a movie starlet married an accountant or something. I really do wonder if Marv & George had some sort of romance planned for Vic and Sarah. There's probably an interview out there somewhere that sheds light on that. Regarding Vic and Simms, I posted Wolfman's explanation about that a few posts ago. Its an unsatisfactory statement, but its his "how and why" of the relationship that never happened.
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Post by dbutler69 on May 20, 2019 8:55:44 GMT -5
I like that she went with a "normal" guy. Sort of like if a movie starlet married an accountant or something. I really do wonder if Marv & George had some sort of romance planned for Vic and Sarah. There's probably an interview out there somewhere that sheds light on that. Regarding Vic and Simms, I posted Wolfman's explanation about that a few posts ago. Its an unsatisfactory statement, but its his "how and why" of the relationship that never happened. Thanks. I just read your post. I agree that it's a shame they didn't take a plunge with an interracial relationship back then, and Wolfman's explanation seems odd to me.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 20, 2019 9:09:14 GMT -5
That relationship was not as normal as it is today. They probably didn’t want to rock the boat.
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Post by rberman on May 20, 2019 10:33:20 GMT -5
I have to say that a relationship between Super people and Non superheroes has always been boring to me. The PTB must sense that as well, that's why many of the love interests become super powered at some point. Terry Long was a shlub. Probably because its a soap opera trope--the "he/she balances regular life with regular person while I have this other side they cannot understand" trope. That writing gimmick can only go so far, and in the end, someone as incredibly different as a superhero cannot be fully understood by someone who is not in their world to some degree. That's one of the reasons the Peter Parker/Mary Jane marriage never worked as a running plot, since who would believe she would ever truly understand / be able to support him, or he just "turn off" his mind to act as if he can settle into domestic life, never thinking about the world she can never be a part of? This was the biggest problem with Moore's wish-fulfillment story in Swamp Thing as well. The foreign babe enters a relationship with the big shambling klutz, then realizes he doesn't fit into her orderly world, then decides to abandon her world to go live in mosquitoville with him inside a giant sexual organ.
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Post by rberman on May 20, 2019 11:11:05 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #8 (June 1981) Contrary to what the cover and title may promise, these are not 25 pages of pure and unhindered character development. A significant amount of time is allotted to a non-sensical Raven conflict that is lighter on significance than Perez and Wolfman might like us to believe. Raven considers becoming a student at "Manhattan University" (I guess DC was afraid NYU might sue?), and, immediately upon checking it out with her soul self, she conveniently wanders upon three terrorists who have taken hostages and are about to blow the place up. Ugh. She saves the day, but as she is doing so, Perez and Wolfman decide for the first time that Raven has a five minute limit on how long her soul self can be apart from her body. Wow. EXACTLY 300 seconds. Funny how nature and magic conform to our artificial measurements of time. Anyway, after a really long, prose-heavy, and generally unnecessary struggle, she discovers it's actually pretty damn easy to push past the five minute limit. And this somehow gives her a renewed sense of purpose since the followers of Azar were wrong. I really could have done without this segment. I suppose there was a perceived need for a superpower-related plot. I would rather have seen Raven either succeed or fail at building a life outside of solitude in Titans Tower. Maybe they just couldn't think of anything for her to do along those lines. It must have been continuity with The Brave and the Bold at work here. But the notion of Dick taking a theatrical gig (which is what circus acrobatics are) is a poor fit, despite his background. Theater is highly programmed, and his schedule isn't stable enough for it. When did Donna have time to become a famous photographer? Is this the first hint dropped about this career? I just took it more that Kory was getting interested in human modes of physical affection in general, not Terry in particular. We don't yet know enough about Terry to decide whether he's a philanderer or just a gentleman. He appears to be engaging in playful banter with Donna about Kory, without Donna feeling threatened. That was already a problem back in issue #2, when Kory claimed that Tamaran was a tropical world. I got the impression that the Italian lech was sleeping with Candy, which is why he was insisting on Donna using her as a model even though Candy was obviously terrible at it. I'm sure there are Italian designers like that in NYC. Garth could afford a Jaguar, BMW, Ferrari, etc. Instead, he's driving a Pontiac Firebird, the car of choice for lower middle class teens of the early 80s. It's a rejection of the billionnaire lifestyle. Good point about him being too young to drive, though. It came with many model roofs; Garth's has a sun roof, while the one below is a T-top.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 20, 2019 11:20:09 GMT -5
When did Donna have time to become a famous photographer? Is this the first hint dropped about this career? In NTT #3, she is asked how she affords her penthouse apartment. She explains it's a combination of a regular stipend she is sent from Paradise Island and her day job, though she never mentions what that job is. Interesting. I always saw Firebirds as dream cars that people looked upon with envy. Then again, I was a little kid. What did I know? But still, he pulls up in front of Vic's apartment, and Perez emphasizes its sparkling finish in contrast to the run-down neighborhood around it. It's a tone-deaf, rich kid move.
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