shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 20, 2020 14:12:38 GMT -5
It's funny how some of these early stories were so forgettable.... I didn't realize how long it took Wolfman to hit his stride with the characters... I remember liking the Blackfire arc (Which I think is soon, if not next)... that should be better  The Doom Patrol storyline is next. At least I vaguely recall that arc. Funny, when I got into this as a kid in the early 1990s, I began around issue #30 via back issues (couldn't find a solid run of the issues before that) and assumed I'd missed a ton. Really, I came in at exactly the right point. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 20, 2020 14:13:36 GMT -5
I think that NTT #12 was the last one I purchased. Overall the book just wasn't working for me after some good initial issues. It was pretty to look at but honestly the only thing Wolfman ever wrote that I really liked was Tomb of Dracula. I can absolutely see why you made the choice at the time, but did you ever go back to read the Judas Contract-era stories? #38 and #39 in particular. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 20, 2020 16:07:32 GMT -5
I think that NTT #12 was the last one I purchased. Overall the book just wasn't working for me after some good initial issues. It was pretty to look at but honestly the only thing Wolfman ever wrote that I really liked was Tomb of Dracula. I can absolutely see why you made the choice at the time, but did you ever go back to read the Judas Contract-era stories? #38 and #39 in particular. I'm pretty sure I've read it. But I don't remember a thing about it. Looking at the gallery on the GCD I actually bought #13 because of Robotman on the cover. So that was my last issue. I own a copy of issue 16 for the Captain Carrot preview but I bought it as a back issue. I picked up some random back issues of ancillary titles over the years from quarter bins, but none of them are memorable enough to say anything besides "I remember the cover." Honestly, I just mostly do not like Wolfman's writing aside from Tomb of Dracula. I read Skull the Slayer #1 last night and that was a CHORE! |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 20, 2020 16:20:49 GMT -5
I can absolutely see why you made the choice at the time, but did you ever go back to read the Judas Contract-era stories? #38 and #39 in particular. I'm pretty sure I've read it. But I don't remember a thing about it. Looking at the gallery on the GCD I actually bought #13 because of Robotman on the cover. So that was my last issue. I own a copy of issue 16 for the Captain Carrot preview but I bought it as a back issue. I picked up some random back issues of ancillary titles over the years from quarter bins, but none of them are memorable enough to say anything besides "I remember the cover." Honestly, I just mostly do not like Wolfman's writing aside from Tomb of Dracula. I read Skull the Slayer #1 last night and that was a CHORE! I think NTT ended up being his magnum opus because he had Perez to balance him out. At any rate, as we near the better stuff, I hope you'll stick around and see if it piques your interest. Also, if you like Tomb of Dracula, what about Night Force? |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 20, 2020 16:27:24 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure I've read it. But I don't remember a thing about it. Looking at the gallery on the GCD I actually bought #13 because of Robotman on the cover. So that was my last issue. I own a copy of issue 16 for the Captain Carrot preview but I bought it as a back issue. I picked up some random back issues of ancillary titles over the years from quarter bins, but none of them are memorable enough to say anything besides "I remember the cover." Honestly, I just mostly do not like Wolfman's writing aside from Tomb of Dracula. I read Skull the Slayer #1 last night and that was a CHORE! I think NTT ended up being his magnum opus because he had Perez to balance him out. At any rate, as we near the better stuff, I hope you'll stick around and see if it piques your interest. Also, if you like Tomb of Dracula, what about Night Force? I have and have read Night Force, but have absolutely zero memory of it at all. I mean it's a huge blank spot that I know I've read. At 14 issues it's a bit long for my "Gone too soon" thread, but maybe. I'm sure I bought it for Gene the Dean's art. I may try to read some of NTT. But no promises as I constantly struggle to find time to read anything. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 20, 2020 16:35:59 GMT -5
I have and have read Night Force, but have absolutely zero memory of it at all. I mean it's a huge blank spot that I know I've read. At 14 issues it's a bit long for my "Gone too soon" thread, but maybe. I'm sure I bought it for Gene the Dean's art. The premise was fantastic, as was the art, but the storylines never hit their stride. Worth revisiting more for the potential than the realization. Fair enough. |
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Post by rberman on May 21, 2020 12:05:37 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #9 (July 1981)
"Like Puppets on a String!"If Wolfman and Perez were indeed toying with the idea of there being something between Kory and Terry Long last issue, there's no sign of it here.  Kory may be into Terry, or she may simply be curious about Earth's customs regarding romance, but Terry definitely doesn't seem interested in her. I'd say it falls between nothing and something. If Terry Long is a stand-in for Wolfman, it's a bit of innocent wish fulfillment. Terry is the good boyfriend who will never cheat on Donna, but he also gets to hang out with Donna's super-hot friend all the time, and we get all the reminders that this dude is hanging around two hot chicks. He makes a cheeky comment now and then, and she always conspicuously modeling. The scenes starts with Terry and Kory alone in the room and Terry gets to check out Kory posing when she's looking the other way. He notes that she doesn't have any tentacles (heh, heh). We get the reminder that Donna is a younger woman. And Donna specifically mentions his female students (co-eds). "And, watching, Terrence Long smiles as the two slim figures . . . " We get it! Terry's life is filled with babes! Then there's this:  I found this panel unsettling. In a film, when the protagonists are departing, and the camera stays on a secondary character watching the heroes leave without being seen himself, it's often code for "This guy is about to do something sneaky but wants to make sure he's alone first." Add the downward contour of Terry's eyebrows, and the reference to a smile seemed more sinister to me than placid. This could be: 1) Wolfman's intent to be ambiguous, possibly keeping his options open for Terry to turn out to be a bad guy; 2) Wolfman and Perez/Tanghal not on the same page about the subtext of the scene; 3) Me overthinking it. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 21, 2020 12:33:14 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #13 (November 1981)  "Friends and Foes Alike!" Script: George Pérez (plot); Marv Wolfman (plot, script) Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: B+ It seems likely at this point that Wolfman and Perez hadn't planned for this title to last a full year. They played out every major story arc they had been suggesting and working at since those first few issues and now scramble to find something worthy of a major story arc, first on Paradise Island, and now by dredging up ancient convoluted Doom Patrol history, which would have been confusing and potentially off-putting to many of their readers. In both cases, the Titans charge into these storylines without Wolfman and Perez offering us any reason to feel invested. Why do we care what happens to the gods of Paradise Island, to Steve Dayton, Steele, or the bad guys who defeated The Doom Patrol? It's all a desperate gamble, but considering how tiresome dredging up the H.I.V.E. and the Terminator each issue was getting, I guess I'll take this direction instead. The Fearsome Five proved that Wolfman isn't always a powerhouse in generating his own villains and conflicts. In fact, without Perez's art sweetening the deal, the Trigon storyline probably would have felt like an utter waste as well. Anyway, this story manages to impress me in spite of its desperation because most of the issue isn't concerned with plot lines. The New Teen Titans is becoming one of those very rare '80s books that finds even more success in the conversations and reflections between adventures than in the adventures themselves. The Avengers' writers had managed to pull this off on a few occasions, Claremont was becoming a master of it with the X-Men, Moench with Master of Kung Fu, and Perez would go on to do it well on his own with the Post-Crisis Wonder Woman. While Wolfman and Perez had attempted the dedicated "between stories" issue more deliberately with NTT #8, it comes off as more earned and is better done here. A few examples of the rich character development occurring in this issue: Donna and Terry building their relationship, and Donna coping with the events of the previous issue:  Robin finally developing a personality in showing off surprisingly wise leadership with Vic:  Vic resolving his inner struggles about Gar and Sarah by repairing Steele:  And Kory's warrior perspective finally getting fair treatment by Wolfman and Perez. We finally sympathize instead of judge:  All while Raven offers a simple and under-explored counterpoint about pacifism (I guess we've spent enough time on Raven by this point). Really, the only time it doesn't work is with Wally, who really isn't saying anything new.  I'm still not sure why Wally is back on the team. Wolfman and Perez don't seem to like him there any more than we do. As for the little bits of story we are given, the Paradise Island one seems forced and ridiculous. Over the course of only three issues, Paula's Purple Ray has now malfunctioned twice while trying to save Gar's life.  Last issue suggested there was a foreign entity that had entered the Purple beam so as to possess Gar, but no mention of that here, and the conflict appears to be resolved. Are we ever returning to this plot point? The other conflict, the invasion of Madame Rouge's underground fortress, is pretty much mindless action, but Wolfman's banter keeps it interesting, as does Perez's art:  All in all, this may well be the first issue in the run to actually feel like the New Teen Titans I remember and love from my youth. Hopefully, the next issue to feel this way won't be far off. Minor Details:- The debut of Robin's collapsible shield:  - Nice to see that Cyborg has a weapon other than white sound -- the extending fist!  Will either of them use these new abilities ever again? - I still can't decide if Terry Long is the ideal male in a feminist world or a cringe-worthy sleaze posing as a feminist who could easily be a fantasy avatar for Wolfman himself:  All the hot ladies wanna date Terry because he shows strength by being weak...or something. I've known far too many creeps like this who think they deserve something from women because they acknowledge them as equal, and I'd trust them less around my female friends than an old-fashioned alpha male. Very strong issue, but as a superhero team title inevitably has to get back to focusing on plots and conflicts most of the time, we may have many more issues before we see this level of quality again. Bringing in this level of characterization and humanity while fighting...now there's a challenge I'm ready for Wolfman and Perez to master. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 21, 2020 12:34:26 GMT -5
Then there's this: I found this panel unsettling. In a film, when the protagonists are departing, and the camera stays on a secondary character watching the heroes leave without being seen, it's often code for "This guy is about to do something sneaky but wants to make sure he's alone first." Add the downward contour of Terry's eyebrows, and the reference to a smile seemed more sinister to me than placid. This could be: 1) Wolfman's intend to be ambiguous, possibly keeping his options open for Terry to turn out to be a bad guy; 2) Wolfman and Perez/Tanghal not on the same page about the subtext of the scene; 3) Me overthinking it. So glad you brought this up, as the review I literally just wrote returns to this unsettling feeling about Terry again. |
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Post by dbutler69 on May 21, 2020 14:24:31 GMT -5
I don't remember ever seeing Robin's collapsible shield or Cyborg's extend-fist again.
I think that the Titans excel in these light-on-action character building issues, or at least those are the ones I've enjoyed more for the most part.
I don't know. I like Terry. I don't get the impression that Wolfman/Perez are portraying him as creepy. Maybe some people are reading to much into things, or maybe I'm not reading enough into them.
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Post by rberman on May 21, 2020 15:24:41 GMT -5
Shaxper may rein himself in from noting the X-Men connections, but I'm ready to go all the way! #11 is the Claremontiest issue of NTT so far. Shall we count the ways? #1 The noble bad guy kidnaps and brainwashes/immobilizes the bold warrior heroine to become his queen, dressed in sexy robes (or less). "Soul and heart" is very close to Claremont's favorite "body and soul."      #2 Mind-control orgasms of female characters    #3 Fake cliffhanger death. As Shaxper noted: What bugged me even more? How the Hell (there, I did it too) did Wolfman take us from this last issue:  to this:  Yeah, that's not what you said last issue. What a rip-off. Yes, and it's straight from the X-Men #133-134 playbook.   #4 This may be a stretch, but when I saw these two siblings in black:  I couldn't help but think of these two:  |
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Post by rberman on May 21, 2020 16:04:23 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #12 (October 1981)  Perez and Wolfman are not shy with the X-Men references, are they!  I do like how Perez puts Wonder Girl and Starfire a little ahead of their respective armies, highlighting them for readers. But that also makes this "Covers that Lie" since Wonder Girl refuses to fight her comrades when they show up on Olympus. Another Claremontism was the "heart and soul" from Athena at the issue's end.  That's the problem with setting this story on Paradise Island, where by definition men can't participate. But why couldn't the boys have come along for the Tartarus and Olympus portions of the adventure? Is it a coincidence that the NTT go to "ancient Greece" at about the same point in their book that the New Mutants went to "ancient Rome" in their book? Funny you should mention that, since the next time Perez tackles this material ( Wonder Woman #10, 1987), Zeus attempts to rape Wonder Woman.  The second half of the issue was super-talky, but the fight scenes in the first half were fun.  |
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Post by rberman on May 21, 2020 16:38:46 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #13 (November 1981) Anyway, this story manages to impress me in spite of its desperation because most of the issue isn't concerned with plot lines. The New Teen Titans is becoming one of those very rare '80s books that finds even more success in the conversations and reflections between adventures than in the adventures themselves. The Avengers' writers had managed to pull this off on a few occasions, Claremont was becoming a master of it with the X-Men, Moench with Master of Kung Fu, and Perez would go on to do it well on his own with the Post-Crisis Wonder Woman. While Wolfman and Perez had attempted the dedicated "between stories" issue more deliberately with NTT #8, it comes off as more earned and is better done here. I get a major Claremont vibe from Donna's self-recrimination.   I am OK with Kory winning a free-for-all tournament. However it's rather Mary Sue of her to win a 3-on-1 against Paradise Island's finest warriors. What kind of tournament is arranged as "everybody vs the outlander"? Not very sportsmanlike.  Furthermore, Hestia is one of the Greek gods, a sister of Zeus. I guess this is an Amazonian named after Hestia like Diana is named after a Roman god? Well, it does fit in very well with Golden Age Wonder Woman themes about the secret desire of strong men to submit to women. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 21, 2020 21:12:05 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #12 (October 1981) Perez and Wolfman are not shy with the X-Men references, are they! Carmine did get there earlier...  |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 21, 2020 21:39:47 GMT -5
Issue #8 did establish that Steve Dayton is missing and even earlier that he is Gar's guardian. We also saw a panel, in one of the previous issues, where Gar talks to Cliff Steele, over the phone, about it, which leads us to here, where Robin and Cyborg are searching for Dayton and Cliff and find....  So, I don't think you can say it comes out of the blue or that Marv hasn't given us a reason to wonder what is up with Steve Dayton, or why we should care. Meanwhile, the Doom Patrol was relatively well known; at least, in fan circles, which was becoming very important, at this time frame. DC letter columns brought them up all the time, which led to the New Doom Patrol, in Showcase and partially to why Gar was included in this group. By story's end, I felt they had done a pretty good job of making us care about the DP, because of Gar's connection and what we see of what happened to Robotman and his desire to find Madame Rouge and Zahl, the people who murdered his friends and Gar's adoptive mother. Meanwhile, I love when Gar wakes up....  I do have to question the temple, in Uganda. It doesn't fit in with the country's history or that part of the world. I think Marv has read too much Edgar Rice Burroughs. I also wouldn't say that Terry is a fantasy stand-in for Marv. For one thing, Marv was married to Michelle Wolfman; though I'm not sure if he was still married to her at this point or not. They did divorce and he remarried. So, I'm pretty certain adult Marv was okay with the ladies, compared to teenaged Marv (who knows though; he might have been quite the operator, for all we know). Now, I do think he reflects Marv's attitudes in certain areas; but, so do other characters. Perez really does go to town, including Gar transformed into a giant dinosaur, after the Purple Ray feedback, before Raven helps him regain control.  I missed this issue and the next one and didn't get to see them until I was in college. They really recovered well here; and, for the most part, really start to gel over the subsequent issues, as they build towards the introduction of Blackfire and the battle with the Gordanians & the Citadel; not to mention the Tales of the New Teen Titans mini-series, with bio stories of the newer characters (and Gar, who hadn't really been developed until the NTT series). As for Robin's shield, I suspect someone was homaging this... (or the Joker episode, with the Batshield) |
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