shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 22, 2020 5:48:37 GMT -5
Issue #8 did establish that Steve Dayton is missing and even earlier that he is Gar's guardian. We also saw a panel, in one of the previous issues, where Gar talks to Cliff Steele, over the phone, about it, which leads us to here, where Robin and Cyborg are searching for Dayton and Cliff and find....  So, I don't think you can say it comes out of the blue or that Marv hasn't given us a reason to wonder what is up with Steve Dayton, or why we should care. Oh, it's not that they haven't been building to this; it's that they haven't given us a reason to care. If Gar were on the trip, we could at least be invested because he cares, but he's only had one true moment where he seemed genuinely concerned with what had happened to Dayton and the team, and that was a few issues ago. As a kid, I always found this story arc confusing and alienating, as a result. I suppose that's a fair point, but this was 1981, and comics were still primarily sold on spinner racks to general audiences. The direct market just wasn't a big enough market share for a mainstream book to cater primarily to the older dedicated fans. If you were going to give them something they wanted, you had to make it palatable to general audiences as well, not re-route an entire book in an effort to deliver fan service. Before rberman gets a chance to jump in on this conversation and discuss Claremont, I'll point out how Claremont did this too, but did it differently. When Claremont wanted to bring back Carol Danvers, for example, because fans were outraged by her dismissal from the Avengers and her subsequent de-powering, he never gave her a dedicated story arc but instead asked the reader to care through an emotional between-stories scene by the side of Xavier's pool. She then came along on a mission where she was not the central focus and ended up earning a central role there. You didn't have to be a fan of Carol Danvers, or even know who she was, to get emotionally invested in her story. At least, growing up, that was my take. One can be in a relationship and still fantasize about winning over super-powered babes in skin-tight outfits, especially if one is a creep. I'm not saying Marv necessarily is, but Terry does bare some striking resemblances to him, both physically and intellectually.  I doubt he told Perez, "Hey George, draw me. Terry is supposed to be me," but he may have offered a character description to Perez that was similar enough. Perez just ended up giving him curly hair (Perez seems to give EVERYONE curly hair) and different glasses. I'm definitely feeling that as of this issue and hope to see it continue! Yes, and it's also likely that Wolfman and Perez were struggling with how to make Robin relevant in combat while partnered with such super beings who can tackle literal titans. Bringing back the limitless utility belt was one possible way to balance him out, but since it ultimately does come off like a hokey artifact from 1960s Batmania, I'd imagine they decided not to try that again. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 22, 2020 6:45:27 GMT -5
Oh, right... I remember this story. When I read it way back, I had no idea who Doom Patrol was, and I was annoyed at the focus on them. Good spotlight on Changeling though.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 22, 2020 6:53:30 GMT -5
Oh, right... I remember this story. When I read it way back, I had no idea who Doom Patrol was, and I was annoyed at the focus on them. Good spotlight on Changeling though. It's a little interesting that, at this point, they are more concerned with reconciling the Doom Patrol's history than their own. Whatever happened to Mr. Jupiter, or Mal, or Karen, or Lilith? Is Titans West still active? What happened to that house they inherited from the old man in the final issue of the original run? Are Hawk and Dove still out there? Do the Titans still have an outpost being manned by Mal? They're pretty much the Teen Titans in name and appearance only at this point (Donna and Gar could not be more different from their Silver Age counterparts), but by all means lets spend a bunch of issues resolving old Doom Patrol continuity. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 22, 2020 7:01:43 GMT -5
I can see that being annoying if you were a fan of the previous team. For me, this was a 2nd book I collected in back issues (after I exhausted Iron Man cheap back issues). I knew there was an old Teen Titans, but wrote it off as Silver Age silliness and never considered it until much later.... not until they started talking about some of those character MUCH later.
I remember being shocked that Aqualad was involved at first.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 22, 2020 7:07:19 GMT -5
I can see that being annoying if you were a fan of the previous team. For me, this was a 2nd book I collected in back issues (after I exhausted Iron Man cheap back issues). I knew there was an old Teen Titans, but wrote it off as Silver Age silliness and never considered it until much later.... not until they started talking about some of those character MUCH later. I remember being shocked that Aqualad was involved at first. I think yours is the experience most general audience readers had upon encountering the title. And I think it's totally fair to leave old Titans continuity buried in the past for the sake of new readers, but then don't divert the series to explore old Doom Patrol continuity either. |
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Post by brutalis on May 22, 2020 7:34:08 GMT -5
I can see that being annoying if you were a fan of the previous team. For me, this was a 2nd book I collected in back issues (after I exhausted Iron Man cheap back issues). I knew there was an old Teen Titans, but wrote it off as Silver Age silliness and never considered it until much later.... not until they started talking about some of those character MUCH later. I remember being shocked that Aqualad was involved at first. I think yours is the experience most general audience readers had upon encountering the title. And I think it's totally fair to leave old Titans continuity buried in the past for the sake of new readers, but then don't divert the series to explore old Doom Patrol continuity either.And yet you have to wonder, Doom Patrol was always associated/compared with original X-Men and now New Teen Titan's is closely associated/compared with New X-Men so why not connect the dots with DP and show deeper and further association (that is already there with Gar and Gar/Cyborg relationship, so similar to Gar/Robotman) for fueling fan interest/discussion/following? Fairly smart move from a writing viewpoint and while avoiding the past Titan book you as a writer still get to fulfill the history and past of your NEW Teen Titan's. Add to that, you have the very CULT following the Doom Patrol has which will attract other readers perhaps not yet finding New Teen Titan's that might become regular followers after checking out the DP story? |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 22, 2020 7:38:38 GMT -5
Shaxper may rein himself in from noting the X-Men connections, but I'm ready to go all the way! #11 is the Claremontiest issue of NTT so far. Shall we count the ways? #1 The noble bad guy kidnaps and brainwashes/immobilizes the bold warrior heroine to become his queen, dressed in sexy robes (or less). "Soul and heart" is very close to Claremont's favorite "body and soul." #2 Mind-control orgasms of female characters #3 Fake cliffhanger death. As Shaxper noted: What bugged me even more? How the Hell (there, I did it too) did Wolfman take us from this last issue: to this: Yeah, that's not what you said last issue. What a rip-off. Yes, and it's straight from the X-Men #133-134 playbook. #4 This may be a stretch, but when I saw these two siblings in black: I couldn't help but think of these two: Claremont hardly invented all those examples that you use. I also think that some of your examples came after those NTT issues. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 22, 2020 7:39:04 GMT -5
I think yours is the experience most general audience readers had upon encountering the title. And I think it's totally fair to leave old Titans continuity buried in the past for the sake of new readers, but then don't divert the series to explore old Doom Patrol continuity either.And yet you have to wonder, Doom Patrol was always associated/compared with original X-Men and now New Teen Titan's is closely associated/compared with New X-Men so why not connect the dots with DP and show deeper and further association (that is already there with Gar and Gar/Cyborg relationship, so similar to Gar/Robotman) for fueling fan interest/discussion/following? Fairly smart move from a writing viewpoint and while avoiding the past Titan book you as a writer still get to fulfill the history and past of your NEW Teen Titan's. Add to that, you have the very CULT following the Doom Patrol has which will attract other readers perhaps not yet finding New Teen Titan's that might become regular followers after checking out the DP story? There's the crux of it, though. This approach might have made total sense a few years later in the age of the direct market, but comics were still largely a newsstand phenomenon at this point and were catering to a very diverse market of which the diehard fans were only a small percentage. Kids like wildfire2099 and I, first discovering comics as we were reading these issues, were totally alienated by this move. |
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Post by brutalis on May 22, 2020 8:12:44 GMT -5
And yet you have to wonder, Doom Patrol was always associated/compared with original X-Men and now New Teen Titan's is closely associated/compared with New X-Men so why not connect the dots with DP and show deeper and further association (that is already there with Gar and Gar/Cyborg relationship, so similar to Gar/Robotman) for fueling fan interest/discussion/following? Fairly smart move from a writing viewpoint and while avoiding the past Titan book you as a writer still get to fulfill the history and past of your NEW Teen Titan's. Add to that, you have the very CULT following the Doom Patrol has which will attract other readers perhaps not yet finding New Teen Titan's that might become regular followers after checking out the DP story? There's the crux of it, though. This approach might have made total sense a few years later in the age of the direct market, but comics were still largely a newsstand phenomenon at this point and were catering to a very diverse market of which the diehard fans were only a small percentage. Kids like wildfire2099 and I, first discovering comics as we were reading these issues, were totally alienated by this move. I was totally the reverse. I knew of and had a few DP issues and NONE of the prior Titan's comics. So I had knowledge and history of the DP combined with the current Titans. And I was buying New Teen Titans and other comics mostly from the LCS now as there were 2 in walking distance (literally across the street and a block away) from the College I was attending. |
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Post by rberman on May 22, 2020 8:28:47 GMT -5
Shaxper may rein himself in from noting the X-Men connections, but I'm ready to go all the way! #11 is the Claremontiest issue of NTT so far. Shall we count the ways? #1 The noble bad guy kidnaps and brainwashes/immobilizes the bold warrior heroine to become his queen, dressed in sexy robes (or less). "Soul and heart" is very close to Claremont's favorite "body and soul." #2 Mind-control orgasms of female characters #3 Fake cliffhanger death. As Shaxper noted: Yes, and it's straight from the X-Men #133-134 playbook. #4 This may be a stretch, but when I saw these two siblings in black: I couldn't help but think of these two: Claremont hardly invented all those examples that you use. I also think that some of your examples came after those NTT issues. The Loki and X-Men/Micronauts examples did come later. I just think of them as stereotypical Claremont things which he did repeatedly, and he was the writer whose success other writers were prone to chase in the early 80s. As you say, he himself was drawing from plenty of previous material, mashing it all up. He's the George Lucas of comic books! Grant Morrison does the same. |
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Post by Icctrombone on May 22, 2020 8:30:56 GMT -5
Everyone draws from previous material. It wasn't a knock on you  . I think that the NTT series was superior to the X-men series. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 22, 2020 8:51:07 GMT -5
I think that the NTT series was superior to the X-men series. I'm curious if my feelings will change as I re-examine this thread with new eyes, but no, I don't agree for now. Titans often had the superior artwork, but I felt X-Men had better established personalities and interpersonal relationships, better individual stories/adventures, and more organic long-term growth. The high points of the Titans exceed the high points of the X-Men, but the Titans had far more forgettable issues where nothing of value happened. With the X-Men, nearly everything mattered, and there was almost always rich character progression at work. I think there are maybe four issues from the Claremont/Byrne/Cockrum era I would skip if re-reading for pleasure. For the Wolfman/Perez Titans, I might not even start until issue #30, and then I'd stop again twenty issues later. |
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Post by dbutler69 on May 22, 2020 9:15:23 GMT -5
I think that the NTT series was superior to the X-men series. I'm curious if my feelings will change as I re-examine this thread with new eyes, but no, I don't agree for now. Titans often had the superior artwork, but I felt X-Men had better established personalities and interpersonal relationships, better individual stories/adventures, and more organic long-term growth. The high points of the Titans exceed the high points of the X-Men, but the Titans had far more forgettable issues where nothing of value happened. With the X-Men, nearly everything mattered, and there was almost always rich character progression at work. I think there are maybe four issues from the Claremont/Byrne/Cockrum era I would skip if re-reading for pleasure. For the Wolfman/Perez Titans, I might not even start until issue #30, and then I'd stop again twenty issues later. I agree. I think the Claremont/Byrne/Austin X-Men is definitely better than the Titans. Perez is my favorite artist so I'll give the Titans a slight advantage there, but I agree with you that the stories and characterization is definitely better with the X-Men. I just try not to think of all of the X-Garbage that's gone on in the last several decades when I read the X-Men stuff. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 22, 2020 9:17:28 GMT -5
I'm curious if my feelings will change as I re-examine this thread with new eyes, but no, I don't agree for now. Titans often had the superior artwork, but I felt X-Men had better established personalities and interpersonal relationships, better individual stories/adventures, and more organic long-term growth. The high points of the Titans exceed the high points of the X-Men, but the Titans had far more forgettable issues where nothing of value happened. With the X-Men, nearly everything mattered, and there was almost always rich character progression at work. I think there are maybe four issues from the Claremont/Byrne/Cockrum era I would skip if re-reading for pleasure. For the Wolfman/Perez Titans, I might not even start until issue #30, and then I'd stop again twenty issues later. I agree. I think the Claremont/Byrne/Austin X-Men is definitely better than the Titans. Perez is my favorite artist so I'll give the Titans a slight advantage there, but I agree with you that the stories and characterization is definitely better with the X-Men. I just try not to think of all of the X-Garbage that's gone on in the last several decades when I read the X-Men stuff. True. The golden rule is to stop reading somewhere around issue #200, but that's still a hundred issues of goodness, along with spin-offs and tie-ins. The Golden Age of the Wolfman/Perez Titans definitely didn't make it that long. |
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Post by rberman on May 22, 2020 9:24:06 GMT -5
Everyone draws from previous material. It wasn't a knock on you . I think that the NTT series was superior to the X-men series. I'm curious if my feelings will change as I re-examine this thread with new eyes, but no, I don't agree for now. Titans often had the superior artwork, but I felt X-Men had better established personalities and interpersonal relationships, better individual stories/adventures, and more organic long-term growth. The high points of the Titans exceed the high points of the X-Men, but the Titans had far more forgettable issues where nothing of value happened. With the X-Men, nearly everything mattered, and there was almost always rich character progression at work. I think there are maybe four issues from the Claremont/Byrne/Cockrum era I would skip if re-reading for pleasure. For the Wolfman/Perez Titans, I might not even start until issue #30, and then I'd stop again twenty issues later. Claremont earned his sales through good stories and characterizations, even though it's easy to pick apart now in adult retrospective. However, I cannot for the life of me understand why Jim Shooter let JRJr stay on the top-selling Marvel book of the day. In a book that was heavy on drama, he was just not good with faces:  When this was what the competition (at both Marvel and DC) was doing artwise:       I can only imagine some degree of nepotism, keeping Daddy John happy. Plus JRJr seems to have been personally liked. |
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. I think that the NTT series was superior to the X-men series. 
