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Post by codystarbuck on May 24, 2020 17:22:09 GMT -5
ps Marvel experimented with the digest format, but not as much, but went deeper into paperback, with their Pocket Book editions, collecting stories of specific characters... DC did this too. I have their New Teen Titans and Legion of Superheroes pocket books. DC went deeper with black & white mass market reprints of comic stories. They had a brief line of them, which you could buy individually or as a boxed set, from Tempo Books...        I had the Superman and Wonder Woman books. I only saw the Legion one, once, in 1978, but was sans moolah to buy it. Part of their big marketing efforts, with the Superman movie . |
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Post by shaxper on May 24, 2020 18:25:29 GMT -5
DC did this too. I have their New Teen Titans and Legion of Superheroes pocket books. DC went deeper with black & white mass market reprints of comic stories. They had a brief line of them, which you could buy individually or as a boxed set, from Tempo Books... I had the Superman and Wonder Woman books. I only saw the Legion one, once, in 1978, but was sans moolah to buy it. Part of their big marketing efforts, with the Superman movie . Did DC publish their which way books around this point, as well? I fondly recall growing up on the Batman and Superman ones. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 24, 2020 18:56:48 GMT -5
Did DC publish their which way books around this point, as well? I fondly recall growing up on the Batman and Superman ones. Those were a bit later, around 1983, by what I see. The Tempo Books volumes came out in 1978. Andy Helfer wrote the Superman Which Way, and Supergirl. I didn't see those; but, a little research says they were done in conjunction with their Super Powers merch...      This was also out in '78, which I later found in my college library.  I sucked at the quiz, despite years of Superman comics. Way more Silver Age stuff that I never saw. |
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Post by wildfire2099 on May 25, 2020 8:07:21 GMT -5
I had no idea those Blue Ribbon books had new content in them, though sounds like I didn't miss much. You mentioned Gar isn't in the story, but he's in the background in two of the panels you posted (or his head is).... was he literally wallpaper?
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Post by shaxper on May 25, 2020 8:43:39 GMT -5
You mentioned Gar isn't in the story, but he's in the background in two of the panels you posted (or his head is).... was he literally wallpaper? I hadn't even noticed him there! I went back and checked. Apparently, he is in the background in the final scene, just for those two panels. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 25, 2020 11:14:12 GMT -5
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Post by Duragizer on May 25, 2020 14:50:02 GMT -5
I own/owned a couple of these digests. My mom picked them up for me at a flea market in 1999. They were the first real exposure I had to Silver/Bronze Age DC. A few of them disintegrated on me, but I still have most of them on my shelf.
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Post by shaxper on May 26, 2020 4:16:26 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #14 (December 1981)  "Revolution!" Script: George Pérez (plot); Marv Wolfman (plot, script) Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: B+ This might be my favorite New Teen Titans adventure up to this point. It's taken Wolfman and Perez more than a year, but they've finally got their pacing down, balancing a compelling story containing multiple escalating conflicts with deep character development. Between fighting a possessed Steve Dayton and attempting to prevent a full scale assault on an isolated African nation, Dick reaches out to Donna about the feelings she is still working through post-Hyperion, Raven apologizes to Wally, confesses she loves him, and then explains why she cannot be with anyone right now, and, after finally being reunited with Steel and a recovered Steve Dayton, Gar gives us the most impressive character exploration to date in this run:   While Wolfman and Perez had previously indicated that Gar used his humor to cover up deeper feelings within, this is the first time the character we are reading in the pages of the New Teen Titans resembles the character we met way back during the original run of Teen Titans:  from Teen Titans #6I still don't get why Wolfman suddenly has him younger than Dick, Donna, and Wally in this new volume, but at least the characterization carries forward. This really is the same kid, albeit with better tricks for masking his pain now. Really, the only attempt at deep characterization that doesn't fully work this time is with Vic. Up until now, I've appreciated the Ben Grimm/Johnny Storm rapport Vic has had going with Gar, but whereas it was initially charming to see Vic growing a real attachment to Gar, Wolfman and Perez are now overplaying it at every turn:  As for the plot itself, sheesh. Look, I've suffered through multiple issues spending far too much time referencing past Doom Patrol history that I knew nothing about. I've been a good soldier. I've paid attention and reasonably understood everything Dayton was talking about in this issue, but just when I thought I was caught up on what was going on, Wolfman and Perez gave me new opportunities to be confused, first with vague references like this one:  WHO?? Some of us have no idea what you're talking about! And then with this big reveal that was apparently supposed to mean enough to us to have warranted the final panel of the issue:  I remember, as a kid, being so bewildered by the reemergence of this team that I had never heard of before, precisely because Wolfman and Perez treated it like we were supposed to know and care who they were. But I can't complain too much. Those two alienating moments aside, this was a damn good story, even without much of a coherent plot to follow. Important Details:- Return of Steve Dayton Minor Details:- It occurs to me now that this title's contrast of deep characterization/relationship-building and utterly terrible villains and conflicts feels exactly like what Perez will be doing in his Wonder Woman (1987) run. Is there some chance that it's mostly Perez plotting the New Teen Titans at this point? Presumably, he and Wolfman are co-plotting, but if this feels so close to what Perez goes on to do with Wonder Woman (both the strengths and the weaknesses of that run) then what is Wolfman contributing? - Whereas faces were Perez's greatest weakness when he began this run, they've since become his greatest strength, perhaps even moreso than panel arrangements and splash pages:   - So Raven can now go into people's minds, read their thoughts/memories, and then manipulate both their thinking and their very perceptions?  Granted, she has entered Dick's dreams, and we know she made Wally fall in love with her, but this is a whole other level. Does she ever use these powers again? - On the other hand, whereas Raven could control the emotions of an actual mythological titan two issues back, she is not strong enough to counteract Madame Rouge's mind control? Seems like a lame excuse to keep a conflict from ending too early. - Two issues back, we were told Donna's strength was nearly on the level of Heracles. And now a falling wall can take her down:  And I guess we are done with the idea, presented two issues back, that she doesn't so much fly as glide on air currents. I can't imagine an air current is lifting her straight up off the ground like this with such velocity:  In spite of its weaknesses, a very promising issue that suggests Wolfman and Perez (or maybe mostly Perez) are ready to make the second year with the New Teen Titans far superior to the first! |
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Post by dbutler69 on May 26, 2020 10:14:20 GMT -5
Yeah, this is probably my second favorite issue up to this point, after #8 (A Day in the Lives).
And it does seem like Raven's powers are somewhat inconsistent, and to some extend Wonder Girl to. It does seem like the super strength/invulnerability power set is often whatever it needs to be for the story, not necessarily something unique to the Titans.
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Post by shaxper on May 26, 2020 10:51:09 GMT -5
It does seem like the super strength/invulnerability power set is often whatever it needs to be for the story, not necessarily something unique to the Titans. Sure, that's true of all the lazily written comics New Teen Titans was putting to shame and leaving behind in the dust, but if you're going to meticulously chart a character's internal journey and personal growth, it would be nice if you could offer the same level of consistency to what can kill them and what can't. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 26, 2020 11:37:04 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #14 (December 1981) "Revolution!" Script: George Pérez (plot); Marv Wolfman (plot, script) Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: Ben Oda Grade: B+ This might be my favorite New Teen Titans adventure up to this point. It's taken Wolfman and Perez more than a year, but they've finally got their pacing down, balancing a compelling story containing multiple escalating conflicts with deep character development. Between fighting a possessed Steve Dayton and attempting to prevent a full scale assault on an isolated African nation, Dick reaches out to Donna about the feelings she is still working through post-Hyperion, Raven apologizes to Wally, confesses she loves him, and then explains why she cannot be with anyone right now, and, after finally being reunited with Steel and a recovered Steve Dayton, Gar gives us the most impressive character exploration to date in this run: While Wolfman and Perez had previously indicated that Gar used his humor to cover up deeper feelings within, this is the first time the character we are reading in the pages of the New Teen Titans resembles the character we met way back during the original run of Teen Titans: from Teen Titans #6I still don't get why Wolfman suddenly has him younger than Dick, Donna, and Wally in this new volume, but at least the characterization carries forward. This really is the same kid, albeit with better tricks for masking his pain now. Really, the only attempt at deep characterization that doesn't fully work this time is with Vic. Up until now, I've appreciated the Ben Grimm/Johnny Storm rapport Vic has had going with Gar, but whereas it was initially charming to see Vic growing a real attachment to Gar, Wolfman and Perez are now overplaying it at every turn: As for the plot itself, sheesh. Look, I've suffered through multiple issues spending far too much time referencing past Doom Patrol history that I knew nothing about. I've been a good soldier. I've paid attention and reasonably understood everything Dayton was talking about in this issue, but just when I thought I was caught up on what was going on, Wolfman and Perez gave me new opportunities to be confused, first with vague references like this one: WHO?? Some of us have no idea what you're talking about! And then with this big reveal that was apparently supposed to mean enough to us to have warranted the final panel of the issue: I remember, as a kid, being so bewildered by the reemergence of this team that I had never heard of before, precisely because Wolfman and Perez treated it like we were supposed to know and care who they were. But I can't complain too much. Those two alienating moments aside, this was a damn good story, even without much of a coherent plot to follow. Important Details:- Return of Steve Dayton Minor Details:- It occurs to me now that this title's contrast of deep characterization/relationship-building and utterly terrible villains and conflicts feels exactly like what Perez will be doing in his Wonder Woman (1987) run. Is there some chance that it's mostly Perez plotting the New Teen Titans at this point? Presumably, he and Wolfman are co-plotting, but if this feels so close to what Perez goes on to do with Wonder Woman (both the strengths and the weaknesses of that run) then what is Wolfman contributing? - Whereas faces were Perez's greatest weakness when he began this run, they've since become his greatest strength, perhaps even moreso than panel arrangements and splash pages: - So Raven can now go into people's minds, read their thoughts/memories, and then manipulate both their thinking and their very perceptions? Granted, she has entered Dick's dreams, and we know she made Wally fall in love with her, but this is a whole other level. Does she ever use these powers again? - On the other hand, whereas Raven could control the emotions of an actual mythological titan two issues back, she is not strong enough to counteract Madame Rouge's mind control? Seems like a lame excuse to keep a conflict from ending too early. - Two issues back, we were told Donna's strength was nearly on the level of Heracles. And now a falling wall can take her down: And I guess we are done with the idea, presented two issues back, that she doesn't so much fly as glide on air currents. I can't imagine an air current is lifting her straight up off the ground like this with such velocity: In spite of its weaknesses, a very promising issue that suggests Wolfman and Perez (or maybe mostly Perez) are ready to make the second year with the New Teen Titans far superior to the first! Madame Rouge was in love with Niles Caulder, the Chief. Zahl killed the Doom Patrol when they refused to let an innocent town die in their place. I was confused when you said Gar was reunited with Steel and Dayton, until I realized you left off the E at the end of Robotman's name, Cliff Steele. I kept thinking you had him confused with Hank Heywood or John Henry Irons. Vic's feelings for Gar and the connection to the Doom Patrol history doesn't exactly come out of the blue. I can understand if you come into this cold, with this issue or the preceding. However, issue 2 has a snippet or two of Gar's past, issue 8 has quite a bit more and 9 goes into depth on his personal history, what Rita Farr meant to him (and the Patrol) and how Steve Dayton is all he has left. He and Vic talk pretty honestly and bond over the telling. It also features Robotman checking in, mentioning that ge was in Brazil and traced Dayton to Uganda and was headed there, next, with Gar's blessing. Gar's emotional state is wrapped up in Dayton on his quest, the murder of board members of Dayton Industries, and the HIVE's plot to steal Promethium, in a bomb form. That leads to Deathstroke battling a rapidly shifting Gar, who proves dangerous because he can change for at will and it is all Deathstroke can do to keep up, though he hits him with his blaststick, which seems to kill him, leading to the Paradise Island two-part. Robotman's state when he is found and his reaction to seeing Madame Rouge on a monitor screen, in issue 13, help sell the hatred for what she and Zahl did. In this issue, when Vic sees Gar alive, he is elated, which is earned by what happened between issues 8 and 13, in my opinion. The recap of Gar's past with the Patrol, in issue 9, makes it clear that Madame Rouge and Zahl were the killers of the Patrol. What was not made clear was Madame Rouge being in love with Niles Caulder. That is a definite mis-step by Marv. Also, he hadn't made past mention to the Brotherhood of Evil and Madame Rouge's membership in it. You were kind of left to either know that or infer it. So, fair point on that. I still think there is enough here to fill you in on the basics, even if you hadn't seen any of the previous issues and had never heard of the Doom Patrol. What we don't see; and I don't have in the files I'm looking at, is any further explanation in the letters pages, where a lot of background detail would be filled in, based on letters from confused or ignorant readers. Raven's powers are empathic, which would seem to logically include manipulating emotions, as witnessed by the manipulation of Wally. I don't think the scenes are meant to be showing that she is reading Dayton's thoughts as much as tapping into his emotions, which are probably wrapped up in the brainwashing from Madame Rouge. They certainly would have been swirling about when he was captured, since he was hunting for his wife's killer; and, there, are likely to be riding pretty high on the surface of his mind. The power and flight inconsistency is par for the course with most superheroes, I find. It is a matter of plot convenience, all too often, at DC, Marvel and elsewhere. Early on in the issue, dialogue mocks Dayton's costume; but, I thought it was pretty decent and way better than a lot of Perez's previous stylings. It is pretty flamboyant, for a mental figure; but, Dayton is a flamboyant kind of guy. I mean, he became a superhero to meet girls (well, a specific one)! ps. Monsieur Mallah rules! |
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Post by shaxper on May 26, 2020 12:25:06 GMT -5
the connection to the Doom Patrol history doesn't exactly come out of the blue. I can understand if you come into this cold, with this issue or the preceding. However, issue 2 has a snippet or two of Gar's past, issue 8 has quite a bit more and 9 goes into depth on his personal history, what Rita Farr meant to him (and the Patrol) and how Steve Dayton is all he has left. He and Vic talk pretty honestly and bond over the telling. It also features Robotman checking in, mentioning that ge was in Brazil and traced Dayton to Uganda and was headed there, next, with Gar's blessing. Gar's emotional state is wrapped up in Dayton on his quest, the murder of board members of Dayton Industries, and the HIVE's plot to steal Promethium, in a bomb form. That leads to Deathstroke battling a rapidly shifting Gar, who proves dangerous because he can change for at will and it is all Deathstroke can do to keep up, though he hits him with his blaststick, which seems to kill him, leading to the Paradise Island two-part. Yup. I got all of that. It was confusing and alienating when it was presented, but I got all of that. However, none of that prepped me for Madame Rouge's backstory with Niles Caulder (thanks for explaining that bit) nor for the return of the Brotherhood of Evil, a team I'd never heard of when I first encountered this issue. Again, this brings me to my point that Wolfman and Perez are delivering a whole lot of fan service to loyal readers of a cancelled book in someone else's title. And again, I wish they cared this much about past Titans history. Either this is a clean slate, or we're going to mine past continuity, but at least do this consistently. Yep. Thanks. I'm not saying it isn't possible to figure all of this out. My point is that it is alienating. Why are loyal readers of this team being forced to do so much homework to comprehend what happened to some other team in a totally different book? I bought this because it said "New Teen Titans" on it, not "Remembering The Doom Patrol". |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 26, 2020 12:38:58 GMT -5
the connection to the Doom Patrol history doesn't exactly come out of the blue. I can understand if you come into this cold, with this issue or the preceding. However, issue 2 has a snippet or two of Gar's past, issue 8 has quite a bit more and 9 goes into depth on his personal history, what Rita Farr meant to him (and the Patrol) and how Steve Dayton is all he has left. He and Vic talk pretty honestly and bond over the telling. It also features Robotman checking in, mentioning that ge was in Brazil and traced Dayton to Uganda and was headed there, next, with Gar's blessing. Gar's emotional state is wrapped up in Dayton on his quest, the murder of board members of Dayton Industries, and the HIVE's plot to steal Promethium, in a bomb form. That leads to Deathstroke battling a rapidly shifting Gar, who proves dangerous because he can change for at will and it is all Deathstroke can do to keep up, though he hits him with his blaststick, which seems to kill him, leading to the Paradise Island two-part. Yup. I got all of that. It was confusing and alienating when it was presented, but I got all of that. However, none of that prepped me for Madame Rouge's backstory with Niles Caulder (thanks for explaining that bit) nor for the return of the Brotherhood of Evil, a team I'd never heard of when I first encountered this issue. Again, this brings me to my point that Wolfman and Perez are delivering a whole lot of fan service to loyal readers of a cancelled book in someone else's title. And again, I wish they cared this much about past Titans history. Either this is a clean slate, or we're going to mine past continuity, but at least do this consistently. Yep. I'm not saying it isn't possible to figure all of this out. My point is that it is alienating. Why are loyal readers of this team being forced to do so much homework to comprehend what happened to some other team in a totally different book? I bought this because it said "New Teen Titans" on it, not "Remembering The Doom Patrol".
Isn't this really just part and parcel of a book in a shared universe. And when you have a team member who was a member of a by-gone team it's fait accompli that the creative team is going to delve into it. The original Doom Patrol had been gone for eight years before I started reading comics. I had very little knowledge of the team outside what was given in the first fourteen issue of NTT and I don't remember feeling remotely lost about any of it. And it was all part of the tapestry of the shared universe (back when I cared about that sort of thing). I guess what I'm saying is that your complaint seems...odd, given the context. |
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Post by EdoBosnar on May 26, 2020 13:23:41 GMT -5
(...) I'm not saying it isn't possible to figure all of this out. My point is that it is alienating. Why are loyal readers of this team being forced to do so much homework to comprehend what happened to some other team in a totally different book? I bought this because it said "New Teen Titans" on it, not "Remembering The Doom Patrol".
Isn't this really just part and parcel of a book in a shared universe. And when you have a team member who was a member of a by-gone team it's fait accompli that the creative team is going to delve into it. The original Doom Patrol had been gone for eight years before I started reading comics. I had very little knowledge of the team outside what was given in the first fourteen issue of NTT and I don't remember feeling remotely lost about any of it. And it was all part of the tapestry of the shared universe (back when I cared about that sort of thing). I guess what I'm saying is that your complaint seems...odd, given the context. Yeah, I'm a bit puzzled by this complaint as well. I was all in on New Teen Titans when the series was coming out, and, like Slam, had minimal prior knowledge of the Doom Patrol, and I thoroughly enjoyed this three-issue story arc. To me, it was pretty much the opposite of alienating. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 26, 2020 13:32:47 GMT -5
I always got the feeling that New Teen Titans skewed a bit older than average (like X-Men) and tended to have more longer-term fans, which may explain why Wolfman & Perez seem to be catering to them (that's Marv, anyway). It seems like the big fan-driven books at DC were traditionally the team books and youth books: JLA, Teen Titans, Legion of Superheroes and the Doom Patrol (Blackhawk, to a certain extent). Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman were more mainstream titles.
As far as Titan history, you could argue it is there in half the team and more would filter in, such as the digest story. The first year is establishing the new team, after burying the last incarnation; so, I can understand a certain reluctance not to go into their past, especially some elements of it; but, this second year of stories does go into it. This Gar's past. The Digest gave us a meeting with the past group (well, Speedy and Aqualad). Issue 17 features a return of the original Starfire. We soon get caught up in the current Starfire's past, then Speedy comes back for the drugs and runaways story. Lilith will turn up at Donna's wedding, then come back for some stories. Mal and Bumblebee come back for the wedding. Lilith said something happened to Gnaark. Duela Dent turns up and Robin reveals she can't be Two-Face's daughter.
So; I don't think they are ignoring the past, just have other agendas and mix it in when they have a reason to. With the Doom Patrol, it is pretty much all of the past that Gar has. He only appeared in 4 issues of the Teen Titans original run. I think this is a big part of building Gar's character. Raven got development first, then Cyborg, now Changeling. Starfire will be next. You could argue that this isn't fan service but character backstory. Donna's is relatively blank (apart from being rescued by Wonder Woman and her Titans past) and will get filled in later Dick and Wally are well documented.
I can understand Wolfman wanting to stay far away from the campier Titans stories and the Rozakis ones are fairly inconsequential. The main era that offered some real story possibilities was the Mr Jupiter relationship.
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