shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 26, 2020 13:41:10 GMT -5
Isn't this really just part and parcel of a book in a shared universe. And when you have a team member who was a member of a by-gone team it's fait accompli that the creative team is going to delve into it. The original Doom Patrol had been gone for eight years before I started reading comics. I had very little knowledge of the team outside what was given in the first fourteen issue of NTT and I don't remember feeling remotely lost about any of it. And it was all part of the tapestry of the shared universe (back when I cared about that sort of thing). I guess what I'm saying is that your complaint seems...odd, given the context. It's an issue of balance to me. The Doom Patrol have been given a ton of space for half a year now, and it isn't even a new adventure starring the team that can give us an opportunity to get invested in them. Instead, it's issue after issue of reciting past history, and now that we are finally doing something new with the Doom Patrol, it turns out we didn't even get all the vital info we needed in order to follow along. It's just plain alienating. Somewhere in these past few pages I noted the difference in how Chris Claremont resurrected Carol Danvers in the pages of X-Men. She got time in another title's spotlight, but it was better balanced, gave us all the background info we needed while requiring a minimum of work to understand it, took very little time away from the X-Men and their story arcs, and gave us an opportunity to get actively invested in her redemption because of these things. This feels more like showing up at your favorite restaurant, and the owner and staff are making a huge fuss about some other people who are there. You can sort of piece together who they are and how far back the relationship goes, but you feel awkwardly left out, and it's disrupting the experience for which you came to the restaurant in the first place. As far as Titan history, you could argue it is there in half the team and more would filter in, such as the digest story. The first year is establishing the new team, after burying the last incarnation; so, I can understand a certain reluctance not to go into their past, especially some elements of it; but, this second year of stories does go into it. This Gar's past. The Digest gave us a meeting with the past group (well, Speedy and Aqualad). Issue 17 features a return of the original Starfire. We soon get caught up in the current Starfire's past, then Speedy comes back for the drugs and runaways story. Lilith will turn up at Donna's wedding, then come back for some stories. Mal and Bumblebee come back for the wedding. Lilith said something happened to Gnaark. Duela Dent turns up and Robin reveals she can't be Two-Face's daughter. So; I don't think they are ignoring the past, just have other agendas and mix it in when they have a reason to. With the Doom Patrol, it is pretty much all of the past that Gar has. He only appeared in 4 issues of the Teen Titans original run. I think this is a big part of building Gar's character. Raven got development first, then Cyborg, now Changeling. Starfire will be next. You could argue that this isn't fan service but character backstory. Donna's is relatively blank (apart from being rescued by Wonder Woman and her Titans past) and will get filled in later Dick and Wally are well documented. I can understand Wolfman wanting to stay far away from the campier Titans stories and the Rozakis ones are fairly inconsequential. The main era that offered some real story possibilities was the Mr Jupiter relationship. This makes a lot of sense. Well argued. I guess I just wish Wolfman and Perez made it less of an effort for someone new to the DP to follow along and get invested. Don't have the issue end on the major revelation that THE BROTHERHOOD OF EVIL IS BACK if I've never heard that name prior to this moment. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 27, 2020 11:03:26 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #15 (January 1982)  "The Brotherhood of Evil Lives Again!" Script: Marv Wolfman Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: John Costanza Grade: C I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Wolfman and Perez are beginning to master pacing and character development, but plotting continues to be their weak point. Consider how this issue opens, the second half of a nasty cliffhanger with the Titans ensnared in a pit of de-evolution:  One small problem. We never saw the first half of this cliffhanger. Last time we saw the team, their ship was about to crash (presumably into Madame Rouge's floating city):  If that's not jarring enough, consider that this entire fight is about saving the isolated African nation of Zandia. We got roughly three panels of Zandia in the previous issue that told us nothing and certainly didn't get us invested. Now, we get a few more shots of normal-looking people being attacked by Rouge's armored soldiers, but each panel is depicted from a distance -- there is no effort to humanize or make us care. In fact, as the invasion progresses, we aren't even shown what's happening. It just gets mentioned in passing as Madame Rouge watches from her viewscreen while we are far more invested in the fight aboard Rouge's vessel:  This whole battle for Zandia, the Titans' outrage at the senseless murder occurring on Zandia, and we're never even invited to care about it. For what it's worth, a narrative blurb in this issue briefly mentions for the first time that Zandia is a safe haven for wanted criminals, and that 100% of the population is criminal immigrants. A cool idea, but that doesn't seem to jibe with the visuals we get of helpless ordinary citizens being attacked on the streets, nor with the Titans' outrage over their being attacked. Do international criminals deserve protection from other criminals? It would have been a worthwhile ethical discussion. Anyway, even if you can get past all of these hurdles to being invested in this culminating chapter of a three part saga that we've been building to for over half a year now, Wolfman is still throwing Doom Patrol back story and trivia at us like it's going out of style. Yes, codystarbuck is correct that it's possible to follow most of this, but I feel like I'm doing far too much work at this point.  Why don't they just reprint the whole damn issue as a New Teen Titans annual at this point? I feel like we've now replayed every damn panel of that story (often multiple times) in these pages over the past six months. I'd much rather just see the thing.  We were supposed to know this? If not, why bring it up now?  Who the f*** is Larry? This far in, and they're still referencing folks that have never been mentioned previously like Titans fans are supposed to know. I can guess Larry was a member of the Doom Patrol, but it's still a disruptive, alienating moment in the story for any non-DP fan.  I mean, I can figure this one out if I'm taking notes each issue and studying carefully, but why should I have to do that much work to follow this story? As for the rest of the story, I can't say I was overly invested. I love the idea of humanizing characters and making them reflect in the midst of combat, but it comes off as heavy handed and simplistic here as every character whose head we enter is debating whether or not it is okay to murder one's enemies, all the bad guys deciding "yes," and all the good guys deciding "no," and that final conclusion gets reiterated SO many times near the end of the issue.  It feels a bit like Dora the Explorer explaining for the eighth time how to get to Ice Cream Mountain. We aren't stupid six year olds, Marv. But, at the same time, let me give Marv and George a little credit. This culminating moment for Gar is an important one, even if the transformation comes quickly and far too easily:   The ensuing reunion with Steve Dayton is touching,  but Gar does seem to get over KILLING Madame Rouge awfully quickly. In the end, though, I can sort of see what Wolfman and Perez were trying to do. The idea of not murdering ultimately morphs into a message about letting go of anger as a means of better honoring the past. We then get this final panel:  Wolfman was a huge DC fan prior to beginning work there in the mid-1960s. It seems obvious now that he was providing all of this Doom Patrol content less to please loyal fans and more to appease the loyal fan within himself. In a way, this entire story arc may have been his own efforts to let go of his anger and disappointment at DP ending the way it did and, in the process, entice a new generation of readers to care about a team he once loved. Which then begs the question -- why didn't he ask to write the Doom Patrol instead of the Teen Titans upon his return to DC? Kahn was pretty hesitant about resurrecting the Titans; seems like she might have had an easier time of greenlighting a team Wolfman seemed more passionate about. I still maintain his main reason for wanting the Titans was to get the final say after having been ejected from the title (and nearly being blacklisted from the industry) a decade earlier. But now that he got in the last laugh (though Steele says in this issue that there is no such thing as a last laugh), DP seems to be the legacy franchise he's more interested in resurrecting. Of course, as codystarbuck pointed out, he will do more to resurrect past Titans history in some issues ahead. Important Details:- Gar and Steve Dayton are reunited - Death of Madame Rouge and General Zahl - First full appearance of the new Brotherhood of Evil, now including Houngan, Phoebia, Plasmus, and Warp.  If memory serves, these guys will be coming back A LOT in this run, and I never really cared for them. However, I do give Marv and George credit for emphasizing that all of them (with the possible exception of Phobia) are not native English speakers. It's such a lazy conceit of writers to make all super-powered beings American. Then again, it is a little convenient that these guys all do speak English, even while some (Phobia and Warp as clear examples in this issue) are still learning the full extent of their powers. Did the Brain waste all their training sessions together on conjugating verbs? Minor Details:- This science makes no sense (not that we haven't seen this a million times before in poorly written comics and movies):  - As a side note, I'd have to check to be absolutely certain, but I think this is the first time we hear the phrase "Titans Together!" - Okay, let's suspend disbelief a little further. Sure, some crazed villain can create a vat of chemicals that can de-evolve a person almost instantly, and sure, once you get out of the vat you instantaneously revert back to normal with no adverse effects, but even still, explain to me how the hell Cyborg de-volves when literally 50% of his body is inorganic:  And, like, wouldn't connections break and stuff? Like, how does everything just magically put itself back together again once he's out of the vat? - Did Hounan, like, seriously disturb anyone else as a kid? Wearing that S&M costume and constantly talking about his "fetish"?  Yeah, we knew what he meant, but it still felt wrong. And if you do a little homework on Perez, I guarantee he wasn't ignorant of the double meaning  A true mess of a story, but I can at least finally respect what Wolfman was trying to do with the Doom Patrol, even if I think the implementation was messy and inconsiderate of Titans fans who had no knowledge of, nor interest in, the DP. |
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Post by rberman on May 27, 2020 13:11:09 GMT -5
First, a biographical comment. Although I was an avid fan of early 80s X-Men, FF, Alpha Flight, and LSH, I never got the NTT bug at the time. I'm not sure why. I had read some Silver Age Titans in anthologies, and maybe I thought this new series would be old-fashioned due to the shared name. However, I did read issues #14-15 at a friend's house. I enjoyed them, but again not enough to pick up the series myself. I can't remember whether I already knew the Doom Patrol at that point, but I found the exposition easy enough to follow. OK, on to issue #14! Next, since this is apparently now my trademark, let's pause for another moment of "Claremont did it too, shortly beforehand." New Teen Titans #14 (December 1981)  From the Claremont-penned Avengers Annual #10, dated a couple of months earlier:  Who appeared first: Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, or Doom Patrol's Brotherhood of Evil? I know Doom Patrol preceded X-Men overall and had shared elements that are difficult to ignore. We've discussed the lineage from earlier science-hero teams like Star Rovers, Challengers, Fantastic Four, etc. Oh, another point of Claremontinuity: This is of course the power of Danielle Moonstar in the New Mutants.  "But rberman," you say, "Wolfman can't be copying Moonstar's ability since The New Mutants didn't debut until 1982!" That is of course correct. However, Claremont was plagiarizing himself with Danielle Moonstar. He had already introduced the character Hecate a few years prior in Ms. Marvel, and she too has the power to make illusions based on her foe's greatest fear. I actually have a whole review thread in the works about 1970s Ms. Marvel, whenever I can get around to it.  OK, enough about Claremont. How about images recalling then-recent John Byrne? Here's the bad guys moving their base/city to the Baltic state of Zandia:  A few months prior, John Byrne moved the Inhumans' city of Atillan to the Blue Area of the moon:  Now, on with some other odds and ends. Two common heroic fiction tropes used to add excitement and ease in transitions from one setting to another. First is the notion that pretty much anybody can fly an airplane:  And second, that airplane crashes never have casualties. Even when they hit the ground perpendicularly at full thrust.  Another common trope is when a hero rejects his friends' aid, nobly saying, "This is one battle I must fight alone." As if! I'm taking all the help I can get. In this case, Robin initially affirms Gar's choice to attack the enemy base solo, but within a few panels the Titans change their minds and join the fight. This quick reversal lends credence to Shaxper's theory that Perez was plotting the stories himself and having Wolfman script them. Maybe Perez thought Gar was flying off after an argument, and the Titans never intended to let him go alone, but Wolfman changed that at the scripting stage later.  I was amused that Dayton mentions his wealth as a potential obstacle for Rita's affection instead of an added bonus. This was probably Wolfman's attempt to tersely mention Mento's wealth and the origin of his power-suit; it just came off clunkily. Also, his suit is off-theme for his powers. Its jagged lightning bolts make us expect a different type of hero. In fairness, it's hard to depict mental powers in a suit design. See also Xavier, Saturn Girl, etc. Actually, I'm not too clear on Mento's power set. (And I keep typing Mentos, the breath mint.) He has telekinesis, but apparently he can generate heat enough to melt Robotman's suit, somehow without frying his brain first. Good thing none of the joints got welded together! I do appreciate that Perez drew Robotman's suit as melty for the rest of the issue.  Speaking of Robotman's suit, Perez/Wolfman pull a Byrne, returning Robotman back to his classic Silver Age appearance. I like it better anyway; he looks less like one of the Metal Men, but still like a metal man.  Don't take this to mean I didn't like this issue. It and the next one are fun. These are just some things I noticed this time around. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 27, 2020 15:19:47 GMT -5
New Teen Titans #15 (January 1982)  "The Brotherhood of Evil Lives Again!" Script: Marv Wolfman Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: John Costanza Grade: C I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Wolfman and Perez are beginning to master pacing and character development, but plotting continues to be their weak point. Consider how this issue opens, the second half of a nasty cliffhanger with the Titans ensnared in a pit of de-evolution: One small problem. We never saw the first half of this cliffhanger. Last time we saw the team, their ship was about to crash (presumably into Madame Rouge's floating city): If that's not jarring enough, consider that this entire fight is about saving the isolated African nation of Zandia. We got roughly three panels of Zandia in the previous issue that told us nothing and certainly didn't get us invested. Now, we get a few more shots of normal-looking people being attacked by Rouge's armored soldiers, but each panel is depicted from a distance -- there is no effort to humanize or make us care. In fact, as the invasion progresses, we aren't even shown what's happening. It just gets mentioned in passing as Madame Rouge watches from her viewscreen while we are far more invested in the fight aboard Rouge's vessel: This whole battle for Zandia, the Titans' outrage at the senseless murder occurring on Zandia, and we're never even invited to care about it. For what it's worth, a narrative blurb in this issue briefly mentions for the first time that Zandia is a safe haven for wanted criminals, and that 100% of the population is criminal immigrants. A cool idea, but that doesn't seem to jibe with the visuals we get of helpless ordinary citizens being attacked on the streets, nor with the Titans' outrage over their being attacked. Do international criminals deserve protection from other criminals? It would have been a worthwhile ethical discussion. Also, doesn't DC already have Santa Prisca as an international harbor for criminals? Anyway, even if you can get past all of these hurdles to being invested in this culminating chapter of a three part saga that we've been building to for over half a year now, Wolfman is still throwing Doom Patrol back story and trivia at us like it's going out of style. Yes, codystarbuck is correct that it's possible to follow most of this, but I feel like I'm doing far too much work at this point. Why don't they just reprint the whole damn issue as a New Teen Titans annual at this point? I feel like we've now replayed every damn panel of that story (often multiple times) in these pages over the past six months. I'd much rather just see the thing. We were supposed to know this? If not, why bring it up now? Who the f*** is Larry? This far in, and they're still referencing folks that have never been mentioned previously like Titans fans are supposed to know. I can guess Larry was a member of the Doom Patrol, but it's still a disruptive, alienating moment in the story for any non-DP fan. I mean, I can figure this one out if I'm taking notes each issue and studying carefully, but why should I have to do that much work to follow this story? As for the rest of the story, I can't say I was overly invested. I love the idea of humanizing characters and making them reflect in the midst of combat, but it comes off as heavy handed and simplistic here as every character whose head we enter is debating whether or not it is okay to murder one's enemies, all the bad guys deciding "yes," and all the good guys deciding "no," and that final conclusion gets reiterated SO many times near the end of the issue. It feels a bit like Dora the Explorer explaining for the eighth time how to get to Ice Cream Mountain. We aren't stupid six year olds, Marv. But, at the same time, let me give Marv and George a little credit. This culminating moment for Gar is an important one, even if the transformation comes quickly and far too easily: The ensuing reunion with Steve Dayton is touching, but Gar does seem to get over KILLING Madame Rouge awfully quickly. In the end, though, I can sort of see what Wolfman and Perez were trying to do. The idea of not murdering ultimately morphs into a message about letting go of anger as a means of better honoring the past. We then get this final panel: Wolfman was a huge DC fan prior to beginning work there in the mid-1960s. It seems obvious now that he was providing all of this Doom Patrol content less to please loyal fans and more to appease the loyal fan within himself. In a way, this entire story arc may have been his own efforts to let go of his anger and disappointment at DP ending the way it did and, in the process, entice a new generation of readers to care about a team he once loved. Which then begs the question -- why didn't he ask to write the Doom Patrol instead of the Teen Titans upon his return to DC? Kahn was pretty hesitant about resurrecting the Titans; seems like she might have had an easier time of greenlighting a team Wolfman seemed more passionate about. I still maintain his main reason for wanting the Titans was to get the final say after having been ejected from the title (and nearly being blacklisted from the industry) a decade earlier. But now that he got in the last laugh (though Steele says in this issue that there is no such thing as a last laugh), DP seems to be the legacy franchise he's more interested in resurrecting. Of course, as codystarbuck pointed out, he will do more to resurrect past Titans history in some issues ahead. Important Details:- Gar and Steve Dayton are reunited - Death of Madame Rouge and General Zahl - First full appearance of the new Brotherhood of Evil, now including Houngan, Phoebia, Plasmus, and Warp. If memory serves, these guys will be coming back A LOT in this run, and I never really cared for them. However, I do give Marv and George credit for emphasizing that all of them (with the possible exception of Phobia) are not native English speakers. It's such a lazy conceit of writers to make all super-powered beings American. Then again, it is a little convenient that these guys all do speak English, even while some (Phobia and Warp as clear examples in this issue) are still learning the full extent of their powers. Did the Brain waste all their training sessions together on conjugating verbs? Minor Details:- This science makes no sense (not that we haven't seen this a million times before in poorly written comics and movies): - As a side note, I'd have to check to be absolutely certain, but I think this is the first time we hear the phrase "Titans Together!" - Okay, let's suspend disbelief a little further. Sure, some crazed villain can create a vat of chemicals that can de-evolve a person almost instantly, and sure, once you get out of the vat you instantaneously revert back to normal with no adverse effects, but even still, explain to me how the hell Cyborg de-volves when literally 50% of his body is inorganic: And, like, wouldn't connections break and stuff? Like, how does everything just magically put itself back together again once he's out of the vat? - Did Hounan, like, seriously disturb anyone else as a kid? Wearing that S&M costume and constantly talking about his "fetish"? Yeah, we knew what he meant, but it still felt wrong. And if you do a little homework on Perez, I guarantee he wasn't ignorant of the double meaning A true mess of a story, but I can at least finally respect what Wolfman was trying to do with the Doom Patrol, even if I think the implementation was messy and inconsiderate of Titans fans who had no knowledge of, nor interest in, the DP. Reading over this again; yes, Marv is pretty over-wrought, with the dialogue, and , yes, he doesn't really introduce Zandia and give us much reason to care. However, I think that is more symptomatic of comic book storytelling, at the time, especially the Marvel contingent that Marv came from. Being a more visually driven company, visuals always seemed to trump motivations and story structure. With artists crafting the visuals before the dialogue, you often got a disconnect between words and pictures, either because the artists didn't give a visual representation to something the writer intended to emphasize or because the writer was now trying to explain a confusing visual. George is co-plotting; but, I suspect he was working a different POV on this story than Marv. he might have also have been rushed and forget that he hadn't set up the pit, before the splash page. He had been doing both Titans and JLA, just before this issue. Why didn't Marv just pitch Doom Patrol? Probably because it had been axed just before the Implosion. The New Doom Patrol had appeared in Showcase, led by Celsius, who was Niles Caulder's alleged lost wife. She forms a new team, first locating the body of Robotman and reviving him, then a new Negative Woman, who was possessed by the same energy that turned Larry Trainor into Negative Man (it having survived the bomb, but not Larry's body). The last member of the team was Tempest, a Vietnam medic who witnessed a massacre, which triggered his latent mutant power. He deserted the Army and returned to the US, where he was recruited by Ariani Desai Caulder. They got a 3-issue tryout in Showcase, but sales weren't good enough for a series. They did appear in a 3-part Supergirl story and a DC Comics Presents issue. Their series was revived post-Crisis, which, ultimately, led into Grant Morrison taking over and turning it into his weirdness. So, DC wasn't high on Doom Patrol, either, as it existed at the time. Everyone had a fondness for the original group, which was dead, except for Robotman and Gar. So, again, the Doom Patrol had a bit of a recent history at DC, plus, was talked about in letters pages and in the Daily Planet pages at the back of their comics, in that era. That is where I first learned about the Doom Patrol. I'm with you that I have never really thought the New Brotherhood of Evil was that great, beyond Brain and Monsieur Mallah. Perez and Wolfman seemed to struggle with really memorable villains and Perez did churn out a bunch of gimmick henchmen types. I don't get where you are coming from, as far as Houngan's costume being an S&M look. It's not black leather, there are no spikes, he's not belted all over the place, no full face mask; none of the stereotyped look. It looks like Perez's generic supernatuarl costume, with some armoring, in his fashion. It looks like what it is, an attempt to do a voodoo character, but give a twist of being scientific. That part never worked for me. I hate magic characters, mostly (Zatanna gets a pass for being sexy); but, science being used to simulate supernatural ideas is just as bad, especially science which makes no sense. How does a strand of hair allow Houngan to transmit pain to Changeling's neurons, if the hair is not connected into his nervous system? It don't work, mate! The Brotherhood of Evil debuted in Doom Patrol #86 (the issue where the comic switched the title from My Greatest Adventure to Doom Patrol), released in January, 1964. The Brotherhood of Evil Mutants first appeared (aside from Magneto) in X-Men #4, in January, 1964. According to Mike's Amazing World, the X-Men comic came out January 3 and Doom Patrol January 23; so, they beat DP to the punch by 20 days! Definitely a coincidence, as I don't see Arnold Drake and Stan Lee having lunch together, comparing notes on their new series. However, Doom Patrol debuted in April of 1963 and X-Men in July; so, the chances of X-Men being a copy of the Patrol or a reaction to it is much higher. The basic concept is the same; a group of weird outcasts, led by a wheelchair-bound doctor (medical or PhD), dealing with odd villains. The approaches were different, but the concepts were pretty much mirror images. The original Brotherhood, with Brain, Mallah and Madame Rouge was far more interesting, and they later teamed up with Gen. Immortus, the other major foe of the team. You'll notice that the best elements of the modern brotherhood are still the originals. I never felt Wolfman ever did much with Houngan, Phobia, or Warp. Primus kind of fell in between, as he had an interesting visual and was sort of given a backstory, here. There is a sort of precedent for Zandia. The Comoros Islands, off the coast of Eastern Africa (the Indian Ocean, between Mozambique and Madagascar) had been under French rule, before independence, in 1975. In 1978, mercenary Bob Denard, with the backing of the French government and intelligence services, launched a coup and deposed the sitting leader, reinstating the original president, at time of independence. Denard's mercenary force formed the Presidential Guard and enforced an authoritarian government. The President grew paranoid about the armed forces and ordered denard and his mercenaries to disarm them, which led to fighting. The President was killed and Denard was evacuated by French paratroops, allegedly helping to restore order. Denard returned and launched another coup in 1995, which was overthrown by the French military and he was taken into custody in France. During the mercenary occupation, Denard and his men grew quite rich, exploiting the country. The Comoros Islands were a key supplier to the French perfume industry, as it is home to many species of rare and exotic flowers. France had backed the original coup, in '78, along with South Africa and Rhodesia, fearing the previous government was too cozy with the Soviets and Chinese. Denard had always worked for French Intelligence and French interests, both there and in the Congo, when he was part of the French involvement in the Katanga Secession and the Simba Revolt. He had the patronage of the Francois Mitterand government and the Gaulist politicians, but they were out of favor, by the time the French sent their military to oust the mercenaries, for the last time. So, you have an island state that, for a time, was run by mercenary soldiers, who exploited its economy. You could also point to Katanga, in the Congo, during the Congo Crisis, when they seceded from the Union of the Congo and used mercenary soldiers, paid for by their mineral wealth and with the backing of the French and Belgian governments (the French sent Legion officers and men, under detached service, under the command of Legion officer Roger Faulques). Marv also says Zandia is a Baltic island, but Madame Rouge and Zahl had traveled in their floating city, from Uganda. That's quite a haul, without being challenged by several governments, not to mention NATO. Would have made more sense if it was in the Indian Ocean, near Somalia, or something similar, to tie it to the piracy of ships transiting the Suez Canal. Makes more sens from a geographic and political standpoint. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 27, 2020 15:34:11 GMT -5
First, a biographical comment. Although I was an avid fan of early 80s X-Men, FF, Alpha Flight, and LSH, I never got the NTT bug at the time. I'm not sure why. I had read some Silver Age Titans in anthologies, and maybe I thought this new series would be old-fashioned due to the shared name. However, I did read issues #14-15 at a friend's house. I enjoyed them, but again not enough to pick up the series myself. I can't remember whether I already knew the Doom Patrol at that point, but I found the exposition easy enough to follow. OK, on to issue #14! Next, since this is apparently now my trademark, let's pause for another moment of "Claremont did it too, shortly beforehand." New Teen Titans #14 (December 1981) From the Claremont-penned Avengers Annual #10, dated a couple of months earlier: Who appeared first: Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, or Doom Patrol's Brotherhood of Evil? I know Doom Patrol preceded X-Men overall and had shared elements that are difficult to ignore. We've discussed the lineage from earlier science-hero teams like Star Rovers, Challengers, Fantastic Four, etc. Oh, another point of Claremontinuity: This is of course the power of Danielle Moonstar in the New Mutants. "But rberman," you say, "Wolfman can't be copying Moonstar's ability since The New Mutants didn't debut until 1982!" That is of course correct. However, Claremont was plagiarizing himself with Danielle Moonstar. He had already introduced the character Hecate a few years prior in Ms. Marvel, and she too has the power to make illusions based on her foe's greatest fear. I actually have a whole review thread in the works about 1970s Ms. Marvel, whenever I can get around to it. OK, enough about Claremont. How about images recalling then-recent John Byrne? Here's the bad guys moving their base/city to the Baltic state of Zandia: A few months prior, John Byrne moved the Inhumans' city of Atillan to the Blue Area of the moon: Now, on with some other odds and ends. Two common heroic fiction tropes used to add excitement and ease in transitions from one setting to another. First is the notion that pretty much anybody can fly an airplane: And second, that airplane crashes never have casualties. Even when they hit the ground perpendicularly at full thrust. Another common trope is when a hero rejects his friends' aid, nobly saying, "This is one battle I must fight alone." As if! I'm taking all the help I can get. In this case, Robin initially affirms Gar's choice to attack the enemy base solo, but within a few panels the Titans change their minds and join the fight. This quick reversal lends credence to Shaxper's theory that Perez was plotting the stories himself and having Wolfman script them. Maybe Perez thought Gar was flying off after an argument, and the Titans never intended to let him go alone, but Wolfman changed that at the scripting stage later. I was amused that Dayton mentions his wealth as a potential obstacle for Rita's affection instead of an added bonus. This was probably Wolfman's attempt to tersely mention Mento's wealth and the origin of his power-suit; it just came off clunkily. Also, his suit is off-theme for his powers. Its jagged lightning bolts make us expect a different type of hero. In fairness, it's hard to depict mental powers in a suit design. See also Xavier, Saturn Girl, etc. Actually, I'm not too clear on Mento's power set. (And I keep typing Mentos, the breath mint.) He has telekinesis, but apparently he can generate heat enough to melt Robotman's suit, somehow without frying his brain first. Good thing none of the joints got welded together! I do appreciate that Perez drew Robotman's suit as melty for the rest of the issue. Speaking of Robotman's suit, Perez/Wolfman pull a Byrne, returning Robotman back to his classic Silver Age appearance. I like it better anyway; he looks less like one of the Metal Men, but still like a metal man. Don't take this to mean I didn't like this issue. It and the next one are fun. These are just some things I noticed this time around. Floating city goes back to Flash Gordon and the city of the Hawkmen, plus Swift's Laputa, before that. So, Claremont was following the same pathway. As I said above, the two Brotherhoods appeared 20 days apart and were conceived on the same writing schedule; so just a coincidence. Second time around? X-Men needed villains, as Magneto had a sort of face turn, around this point. Titans needed villains and the Brotherhood fit the bill nicely and had personal connections. Probably a coincidence, again. The reason why the revived Robotman body looked like one of the Metal Men was because it was designed and built by Dr Will Magnus, creator of the Metal Men. Mento had no power of his own. He used a helmet that gave him telekinesis, project illusions and deliver mental blasts. The new costume and helmet have boosted the powers, though that was made clear later on. His use of the helmet affects his own mental state, especially the newer version, with its greater power. Psycho Pirate was manipulating emotions and fears in the Silver Age, just to show that Claremont followed on other heels, just like everyone else in comics. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on May 27, 2020 22:27:13 GMT -5
OK, enough about Claremont. How about images recalling then-recent John Byrne? Here's the bad guys moving their base/city to the Baltic state of Zandia: A few months prior, John Byrne moved the Inhumans' city of Atillan to the Blue Area of the moon: Holy crud. Hard to chalk this one up to coincidence. I actually liked that line. How can you know if she truly loves you if she also has a fortune to gain by pretending she does? |
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Post by shaxper on May 27, 2020 22:39:57 GMT -5
Reading over this again; yes, Marv is pretty over-wrought, with the dialogue, and , yes, he doesn't really introduce Zandia and give us much reason to care. However, I think that is more symptomatic of comic book storytelling, at the time, especially the Marvel contingent that Marv came from. Being a more visually driven company, visuals always seemed to trump motivations and story structure. With artists crafting the visuals before the dialogue, you often got a disconnect between words and pictures, either because the artists didn't give a visual representation to something the writer intended to emphasize or because the writer was now trying to explain a confusing visual. George is co-plotting; but, I suspect he was working a different POV on this story than Marv. he might have also have been rushed and forget that he hadn't set up the pit, before the splash page. He had been doing both Titans and JLA, just before this issue. I would agree this scenario is likely. You can definitely tell this story's overall shape and direction went differently than originally planned. The last two titles really haven't matched what happened in the issues at all, and when Marv first introduced Zandia, he teased the reader about some deep mystery about the place that (I can only assume) would have been revealed to be the fact that the population is entirely made up of international fugitives. Seems like Marv originally intended to spend more time on the ground in Zandia, but the Doom Patrol, Gar's need for vengeance, and the re-introduction of the Brotherhood sort of stole away from that. All the same, the finished product is a bit of a mess. Thanks for the crash-course! Absolutely, and I suspect that's part of why they didn't just launch a new super-villain team with these four new members. That and yet another desire to resurrect aspects of the DP. Working from very old memories of this run, when they reappear after this, it starts to feel like The Fearsome Five Take-2. Wolfman and Perez's first attempt at an arch-rival team didn't take, so let's try this one instead. Of course, the Fearsome Five end up coming back too, right? It's...kinky. Don't get me wrong -- Cyborg and Raven's costumes are kinky too. Perez is actually really big on Fetish conventions and is prominent in the subculture, and I can see the inspiration in his costume designs -- less the more obvious signature things and more the the way a costume is cut. Here's another way to put it: while virtually every comic artist draws their super-heroins practically busting out of their costumes, Perez is the only mainstream artist of the time I can think of who had his men practically busting out of their costumes too, and Hounan is a particularly strong example of this. I think the implication was that the technology enhances the magic rather than replaces it, but that strikes me as even more ridiculous. Giving a super team a team of super antagonists seems like it would have been a pretty generic concept even in 1964. Hadn't The Howling Commandos already faced a team of Nazis that were their opposites by this point? It's been a long while, but I thought that happened even before The Blitzkrieg Squad in 1965. I learn so very much from you. Thank you for this. |
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Post by dbutler69 on May 28, 2020 11:01:13 GMT -5
This whole battle for Zandia, the Titans' outrage at the senseless murder occurring on Zandia, and we're never even invited to care about it. For what it's worth, a narrative blurb in this issue briefly mentions for the first time that Zandia is a safe haven for wanted criminals, and that 100% of the population is criminal immigrants. A cool idea, but that doesn't seem to jibe with the visuals we get of helpless ordinary citizens being attacked on the streets, nor with the Titans' outrage over their being attacked. Do international criminals deserve protection from other criminals? It would have been a worthwhile ethical discussion. Also, doesn't DC already have Santa Prisca as an international harbor for criminals? My understanding is that Santa Prisca didn't exist at this point. I don't think it appears until 1987. Anyway, I do agree with you that this does require a lot of Doom Patrol knowledge (well, not require really, but it would help) which I don't really have, but I still enjoyed this story. I also agree that Wolfman/Perez didn't do such a good job of making us care about the "innocent" Zandian war victims. As far as Woflman writing for the fan in himself, I don't have a big problem with that. After all, it worked out pretty well for Roy Thomas. Having said that, some setup of this Doom Patrol stuff ahead of time would have helped a lot in terms of both informing those of us who weren't familiar with them as well as making us care. |
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Post by shaxper on May 28, 2020 12:10:59 GMT -5
]My understanding is that Santa Prisca didn't exist at this point. I don't think it appears until 1987. Noted and corrected! It is nice to have someone share my perspective on this  |
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Post by rberman on May 28, 2020 13:27:46 GMT -5
There is a sort of precedent for Zandia. The Comoros Islands, off the coast of Eastern Africa (the Indian Ocean, between Mozambique and Madagascar) had been under French rule, before independence, in 1975. In 1978, mercenary Bob Denard, with the backing of the French government and intelligence services, launched a coup and deposed the sitting leader, reinstating the original president, at time of independence. Denard's mercenary force formed the Presidential Guard and enforced an authoritarian government. The President grew paranoid about the armed forces and ordered denard and his mercenaries to disarm them, which led to fighting. The President was killed and Denard was evacuated by French paratroops, allegedly helping to restore order. Denard returned and launched another coup in 1995, which was overthrown by the French military and he was taken into custody in France. During the mercenary occupation, Denard and his men grew quite rich, exploiting the country. The Comoros Islands were a key supplier to the French perfume industry, as it is home to many species of rare and exotic flowers. France had backed the original coup, in '78, along with South Africa and Rhodesia, fearing the previous government was too cozy with the Soviets and Chinese. Denard had always worked for French Intelligence and French interests, both there and in the Congo, when he was part of the French involvement in the Katanga Secession and the Simba Revolt. He had the patronage of the Francois Mitterand government and the Gaulist politicians, but they were out of favor, by the time the French sent their military to oust the mercenaries, for the last time. So, you have an island state that, for a time, was run by mercenary soldiers, who exploited its economy. You could also point to Katanga, in the Congo, during the Congo Crisis, when they seceded from the Union of the Congo and used mercenary soldiers, paid for by their mineral wealth and with the backing of the French and Belgian governments (the French sent Legion officers and men, under detached service, under the command of Legion officer Roger Faulques). I learn so very much from you. Thank you for this. I found this information about The Comoros Islands interesting as well. The detail of "nation of criminals" fits. However, Wolfman may also have had another source for his story about a team of villains taking over a small country that nobody cares about.  This is from X-Men #4 (1964) by Kirby and Lee. Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil (Mutants) conquers the nation of San Marco, which is supposedly South American yet like Zandia appears to be populated entirely by Europeans. Sounds pretty similar to the Brotherhood of Evil taking over Zandia, whose name sounds like a cipher for "Zambia" just as "Latveria" is for "Latvia." |
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Post by shaxper on May 28, 2020 13:52:08 GMT -5
However, Wolfman may also have had another source for his story about a team of villains taking over a small country that nobody cares about. This is from X-Men #4 (1964) by Kirby and Lee. Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil (Mutants) conquers the nation of San Marco, which is supposedly South American yet like Zandia appears to be populated entirely by Europeans. Sounds pretty similar to the Brotherhood of Evil taking over Zandia, whose name sounds like a cipher for "Zambia" just as "Latveria" is for "Latvia." I've never enjoyed persistence quite as much as I do here  |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 28, 2020 19:06:09 GMT -5
However, Wolfman may also have had another source for his story about a team of villains taking over a small country that nobody cares about. This is from X-Men #4 (1964) by Kirby and Lee. Magneto's Brotherhood of Evil (Mutants) conquers the nation of San Marco, which is supposedly South American yet like Zandia appears to be populated entirely by Europeans. Sounds pretty similar to the Brotherhood of Evil taking over Zandia, whose name sounds like a cipher for "Zambia" just as "Latveria" is for "Latvia." I've never enjoyed persistence quite as much as I do here Well, you could also point to pirates operating from their own islands and such, in the Caribbean and in the gulf of Mexico, plus other parts of the world. Jean LaFitte operated from an island in Bataria Bay,in Louisiana, in the early 1800s (and aided Andrew Jackson at the Battle of New Orleans, in 1815) and pirates operated from the island of Tortuga, off the coast of Haiti, in the mid-1600s (mainly French and English, attacking the Spanish). They essentially took over land from established governments and operated as their own law, until driven out or captured. |
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Post by spoon on May 28, 2020 21:51:02 GMT -5
Okay, let's give this thread one more try... New Teen Titans #11 (September 1981)  "When Titans Clash" Script: George Pérez (plot); Marv Wolfman (plot, script) Pencils: George Pérez (breakdowns); Romeo Tanghal (finished art) Inks: Romeo Tanghal Colors: Adrienne Roy Letters: John Costanza Grade: D+ After ten issues, Wolfman and Perez had effectively played all of their cards. The team is fully established, The Trigon situation is resolved, and The H.I.V.E. and Deathstroke have gotten plenty of time in the book as of late, so it's time to detour and add some new conflict to spice up this series. I guess the idea of going to Paradise Island made sense on paper. First, the concept of The Titans fighting...The Titans is as catchy as it is a bad dad joke, but there's far more opportunity than that here. After all, Vic, Raven, Kory, and Gar have all had ample opportunity to develop their characters in these pages, but what about the veteran members of the team? A visit to Paradise Island should give us plenty of opportunity to get to know Donna better, right? Well, that or have her be mind-controlled and not herself for most of the story.  Man, that's disturbing. So many panels in this issue really shouldn't have slipped by the comics code...In fact, I'd argue that, as of now, Wolfman and Perez's Donna Troy has less characterization than her Silver Age counterpart. Donna often feels like a mouthpiece for 1980's feminism. I'm glad the viewpoint is repeatedly shared, but there is no human being to go along with such sentiments. She frowns at Gar's chauvinistic behavior, diplomatically explains Paradise Island's anti-man policy to Vic, and fights back like a bad-ass when gods try to molest her:  but that's all we really get from her. Pardon the pun, but who is Donna Troy? I'm just jumping back into the thread. I actually thought this was a solid issue. I've barely read any of the original Teen Titans, so I can't really speak to whether Donna is changed. But since she is mind-controlled for most of the issue, Donna doesn't really have a chance to express her personality. Hyperion is really the focus of the issue, followed by Donna. The rest of the team fades more into the background, especially the guys. The fact that the men can't set foot on Paradise Island is a significant plot constraint. It's interesting to read the mythological parts of this story and then look up the actual mythology to compare. Yes, the Hell thing bugged me, too. Why use Christian terminology when they've got their own underworld? I only got into New Teen Titans after reading tons of Claremont's X-Men, so I'm a little biased by what I read first. For me, NTT generally reads as less complex and target at younger readers than Claremont's X-Men. |
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Post by shaxper on May 28, 2020 22:19:57 GMT -5
For me, NTT generally reads as less complex and target at younger readers than Claremont's X-Men. I've suspected that myself, and it might be an editorial issue. I've noticed that there are never editor's boxes explaining references to past events, almost as if they don't want to make the reading experience too complex. Trust us, it happened somewhere. Don't bother yourself with where or when. |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 28, 2020 22:39:34 GMT -5
I don't know about being targeted at younger readers; maybe, but I was 14 when it debuted and I jumped right on board. Simpler, maybe, in terms of not buckling under the weight of unresolved subplots, like X-Men had gotten, by this point. Pretty much, the two books were the top dogs in the industry and were getting the most coverage in fanzines. For DC, it was a welcome hit in an era where some of their best sales came from Mike Grell's Warlord.
I think the lack of editor fingerprints all over this is due to the editor being Len Wein, Marv's best bud. I think it was probably more of him trusting Marv to cover things in the book, while he handled the support stuff. Also, Jenette Kahn and Dick Giordano tended to allow more freedom to their editors (within certain boundaries) and here is where we start to see it pay off. The freedom and the royalty payments were a big enticement to those who were less than gruntled, under Shooter, within a couple of years, DC is starting to really get people to sit up and take notice and in another couple of years, will be just about all anyone talks about, aside from the Turtles.
The letters pages always skewed older, but, that could have been by design.
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