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Post by rberman on Apr 11, 2019 8:40:56 GMT -5
All of the JM Dematteis/Sal Buscema stuff from Spectacular is great...it really, and I mean really, delves into the minds of it's characters, and goes often beyond hero/villain situations and shows it's characters to all be flawed and damaged individuals struggling with their lot. Sal Buscema's slightly jagged, sharp style is a fascinating mix of Silver Age/Marvel House style adapting to the post-MacFarlane era. Spider-Man doesn't really work when he's married. Spider-man is all about comparing and contrasting the trials and problems of Spider-Man contrasted with the trials and problems of Peter Parker. Now I'm not saying that stable, faithful married couples are inherently boring but... Yeah, no. I tell a lie. Stable married couples are inherently boring. Sorry, stable married people here. I am sad that you are boring, too!* Romantic tension is a huge source of both plot and conflict in virtually all genre fiction. You remove that and writers have to scramble to fill the void. And Spider-man is much young man soap-opera-y-er than other superhero books, because the Romita Sr. run is the model for all Spider-man stories that other writers copied or deviated-from-with-extreme-awareness. Now, as a reader I really like married Spider-man. As a long time superhero fan I appreciate creators forced to deviate from traditional storytelling modes. Married Spidey is a bitch to write, and leads to hilarious plot-lines like "Mary Jane is smoking cigarettes!" Or "Shit, this is too hard to write, let's introduce a clone version of the younger Spider-man so we can go back to ripping off Stan Lee and not have to think so much." This is not limited to comic books; popular media of the last two generations focuses far more on the lives of single people than the married/family experience. Think of how TV shows like "I Love Lucy" and "Leave It to Beaver" and "Happy Days" gave way to workplace comedies and Friends-clones about singles. Chris Claremont commented in a recent interview that "Kitty Pryde and Peter Rasputin get married" would be a terrible story idea, because later writers wouldn't know what to do with that situation except break it up somehow. Claremont would know, since editorial interference had forced him to break up the marriage of Scott Summers and Maddie Pryor. Similarly JMS was forced to end Peter Parker's marriage in the much-pilloried "One More Day" story. That said, what are some of your favorite comic book stories that tell stories about marriage other than "we got married" or "we broke up"? The first couple that came to my mind is the first family of Marvel Comics, namely Reed and Sue Richards. Their marriage has been one of the few constants in the Marvel Universe since it happened. And the story that first came to mind about their marriage was the one where they moved to the suburbs, and Sue was threatening to miscarry their second child.
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Post by Randle-El on Apr 11, 2019 9:36:44 GMT -5
I think Invincible by Robert Kirkman does a pretty good job of showing what a superhero comic can do when you allow the character to actually experience the passage of time and mature into older versions of themselves -- including marriage, having kids, etc. Mark Grayson and his dad both go through a lot of stuff and you get to see how everything plays out in their marriages, their relationships with their kids, etc.
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Crimebuster
CCF Podcast Guru
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Post by Crimebuster on Apr 11, 2019 10:12:15 GMT -5
Going to dive into the box of the obscure here, but one of my favorite romance comics is the David and Eileen ongoing soap opera in Just Married #93-101. He's Jewish! She's... Irish! Can they make it work?! I love how they always say "Irish" when they really mean "Catholic," which is very clear from the actual story content. Apparently that was a bridge to far, as they were already pushing it with the whole idea. it's heavy handed and over the top, as with most romance comics, but it's also interesting. Basically, both sets of parents are very religious and traditional, and it leads to all sorts of difficulty in their marriage. Usually, each one is trying to please their partner's family, so there's a bit of a Gift of the Magi thing going on. Still, it's bold material for 1973.
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Post by rberman on Apr 11, 2019 10:53:19 GMT -5
Your comment about marriages over time calls to mind Kurt Busiek's Superman: Secret Identity which showed Lois and Clark's marriage moving through the phases of life, including kids growing up and leaving home.
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Post by codystarbuck on Apr 11, 2019 11:16:15 GMT -5
Anything with Ralph & Sue Dibny; but, especially, the later era stuff in Starman. James Robinson got the fact that they were Nick & Nora Charles, in superhero drag. Sue was just as integral as Ralph, despite the lack of powers. She was every bit the detective he was and she adored her hubby. It's why Identity Crisis rips out your heart and ticks you (well, me) off. Sue is Laura Petrie, with a bit more adventure in her life and she gets toasted. I could maybe live with that, if she hadn't have been retroactively raped as well. Then, for it to just be a mcguffin for a bad and psychotic story, just made that thing poison, for me.
In the 70s, Barry and Iris made for a great couple, with Iris doing her thing and Barry his, with home interactions and the odd time where Iris' journalism fed Barry info. Then, she got murdered.
Sense a pattern here?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2019 18:04:49 GMT -5
I need reminders who is/was married.
At DC: Superman & Lois. Flash & Iris. Wally & Linda. Aquaman & Mera. Ralph & Sue. Some of the Legion. Most of the JSA.
At Marvel: Reed & Sue. Peter & MJ. Hank & Janet? Bruce & Betty.
Who else?
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Post by rberman on Apr 11, 2019 19:07:04 GMT -5
Katar and Shayere Hol are married in the JLA. The LSH has many couples, but typically the only marriages are Lightning Lad/Saturn Girl and Bouncing Boy/Duo Damsel. Karate Kid and Princess Projectra were married about five minutes before he was killed. Other LSH marriages are sometimes seen in imaginary/future stories. Didn't Donna Troy marry Terry?
At Marvel, Ororo is married to T'Challa. Scott Summers has been married to Maddie Pryor and Jean Grey. Mac and Heather in Alpha Flight. Did Johnny Storm marry the fake Alicia?
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Post by tarkintino on Apr 11, 2019 20:58:15 GMT -5
I appreciated the relationship of Clark and Diana Kingdom Come (1996) along with Barry and Iris from JLA: Liberty and Justice (2003). Its probably coincidence that Alex Ross was the artist for both, but marriage is depicted as such a natural, loving thing: ..free of the baked-in dysfunction so many comic book relationships suffer from, as if that should be expected. In just a few panels of the JLA tabloid and Kingdom Come, the reader can feel how deep the feelings are between the characters, and not sold in a sweeping, Hollywood way, but like someone took a couple of pages out something closer to reality.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Apr 11, 2019 21:21:20 GMT -5
I need reminders who is/was married. At DC: Superman & Lois. Flash & Iris. Wally & Linda. Aquaman & Mera. Ralph & Sue. Some of the Legion. Most of the JSA. At Marvel: Reed & Sue. Peter & MJ. Hank & Janet? Bruce & Betty. Who else? Vision and Scarlet Witch... I guess Vision and Mrs. Vision from the Tom King series, too. Crystal and Quicksilver (not sure if they're divorced now).. Black Bolt and Medusa... maybe some other Inhumans?
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Apr 11, 2019 23:06:38 GMT -5
I need reminders who is/was married. At DC: Superman & Lois. Flash & Iris. Wally & Linda. Aquaman & Mera. Ralph & Sue. Some of the Legion. Most of the JSA. At Marvel: Reed & Sue. Peter & MJ. Hank & Janet? Bruce & Betty. Who else? Vision and Scarlet Witch... I guess Vision and Mrs. Vision from the Tom King series, too. Crystal and Quicksilver (not sure if they're divorced now).. Black Bolt and Medusa... maybe some other Inhumans? I think the Huntress (original Earth-Two version) and the SPortsmaster and Punch and Jewlee were both married.
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Post by berkley on Apr 12, 2019 0:22:55 GMT -5
If we're talking superhero comics then yeah, the number of good examples is probably pretty limited. Sue and Reed Richards worked well because the whole premise of the FF is that they're a family - which is why I think introducing outside "guest-members" is always a risky proposition. Crystal worked because she basically functioned as part of that family, but I'm not sure any of the others did. Then again, I'm not nearly as familiar with those later runs as I am with the first 100 issues or so.
The Pyms never appealed to me much, mainly because I always felt some distaste for the Wasp as a character. And the less said about the Crystal + Qucksilver match the better, in my book.
Barda and Scott Free would seem to be an obvious example from DC but then it occurs to me that they only got married in the last issue of original series run, so we never got to see how they would have worked as a married couple in Kirby's version - though one could argue that for all intents and purposes they were written that way for much of that run, even before they actually got married.
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Post by rberman on Apr 12, 2019 12:07:38 GMT -5
Outside the Marvel/DC superhero box, one of the most significant comic book portrayals of marriage is Saga by Vaughan and Staples. The whole thing is one big space opera allegory about the travails of marriage. Having babies, raising kids, trying to earn money, avoiding drugs, saying no to affairs, introducing your wife to your parents (see below), avoiding bounty hunters by travelling in giant spaceship trees... all the usual married stuff.
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Post by badwolf on Apr 12, 2019 12:27:59 GMT -5
I enjoyed reading about the marriage of Buddy and Ellen Baker in the modern Animal Man series. His whole family was used to good effect.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 12, 2019 13:26:26 GMT -5
The Creepiest Wedding EverThis wedding had an element of novelty to it. Usually when superheroes tie the knot, it's to a fellow hero or loved one they've been chasing for years. But rather than do the predictable thing and marry Dick Grayson, Donna Troy opted for college professor Terry Long. Not only was he a perfectly ordinary DCU civilian, he was a good ten years older than his bride. Which, considering the book is called Teen Titans, is kind of creepy. The effect this wedding had on the series was mixed at best. The wedding itself was handled well enough. Marv Wolfman and George Perez offered readers a spot of light in a series that had grown surprisingly dark thanks to storylines like "The Judas Contract." No power-mad villains showed up to spoil the festivities - just Donna's friends and family to celebrate her big day. But it was not a marriage that lasted long, even by comic book standards. A subsequent storyline saw the Titans meet up with a future incarnation of their team and battle a crazy villain who wanted to destroy the universe. That villain turned out to be none other than Donna and Terry's unborn child. She was forced to renounce her godhood and eventually her marriage in order to prevent this villain from rising to power. So basically, it wasn't long before darkness crept back into the book. And Donna embraced her status as one of the most convoluted and confusing characters in the DCU. Source of the above information is found here.Personal NotesI read Teen Titans pretty much about 60-65 percent of the issues and I'm really surprised to see that no one not even mentioning the marriage of Donna Troy and Terry Long and I'm really surprised to see shaxper not even mentioning it. It was so bad in my own human opinion made Donna status in the DCU one of the most difficult characters ever and even that this article (see above) that their unborn child became a villain that alone drove her nuts and forced to renounce her godhood and that's why fans did not care for her at all. That and other criteria (not worth mentioning) that made Donna a black sheep in the DCU and that's why no writer wants to take her on. That's why I have a hard time dealing with it and it's made me very unhappy that DC Comics made this character not loved anymore and this alone made me angry with Marv Wolfman and George Perez handling of Donna a dark character that left me very speechless indeed. That's pretty much all I know of ... and I felt that marriage of Donna and Terry should never had taken place at all. Many of my friends at the LCS told me that this comic book above should never been printed and it's one of the most difficult one to read even today. Members at my store are still talking about it today.
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Post by Farrar on Apr 12, 2019 15:20:38 GMT -5
Going to dive into the box of the obscure here, but one of my favorite romance comics is the David and Eileen ongoing soap opera in Just Married #93-101. He's Jewish! She's... Irish! Can they make it work?! I love how they always say "Irish" when they really mean "Catholic," which is very clear from the actual story content. Apparently that was a bridge to far, as they were already pushing it with the whole idea. it's heavy handed and over the top, as with most romance comics, but it's also interesting. Basically, both sets of parents are very religious and traditional, and it leads to all sorts of difficulty in their marriage. Usually, each one is trying to please their partner's family, so there's a bit of a Gift of the Magi thing going on. Still, it's bold material for 1973. Based on the timing, this must have been inspired by Bridget Love Bernie, a 1972-73 sitcom about a newly-married couple consisting of a Jewish guy and an Irish Catholic gal; and their parents. It starred Meredith Baxter and David Birney, who later married (she was billed as Meredith Baxter Birney when she co-starred in Family Ties later on). Their off-camera romance added to the show's popularity, but the show was too controversial and the show only ran one season. (There were of course predecessors to Bridget Loves Bernie such as the play Abie's Irish Rose; Stiller and Meara's comedy shtick, etc. )
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