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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 26, 2019 18:16:33 GMT -5
Alright, Duragizer, here we go. We haven't had a Cerebus thread in a bit. Me: I have read a fair amount of Cerebus, I have not read the whole thing, I probably will someday but I am not looking forward to it. Recommended: High Society, Church and State, Jaka's Story, Melmoth, the first chunk of Going Home. So volumes 2, 3, 4, 5, and a bit of 9. Everything else... use caution. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on May 26, 2019 18:22:30 GMT -5
Also. Dave Sim really did seem to foreshadow the tone of a lot of current right wing media, including the ComicsGate stuff. I mean I can definitely imagine talking heads on Fox News blaming everything on the "Feminist Homosexualist Axis.*" It's a little weird that I don't hear this acknowledged in comic nerd circles.
* This is a fun preview of the kind of content you get from Cerebus volumes after volume 6. Hence my "proceed with caution."
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Post by codystarbuck on May 26, 2019 19:28:23 GMT -5
I'd say the first half is definitely worth reading, then caveat emptor! I think it is a must read for anyone interested in the history of comics and anyone interested in the artform. however, it evolves over time. That is interesting to see; but, as Sim's approach evolves, so, too does his use of the series for personal attacks and to pontificate on subjects where he doesn't come out well.
The first phone book (1-25) is uneven; but, there are some real gems in there and the artistry improves and the quality of the writing goes up, too. Sim has a pretty good handle on the comedy and his timing is spot on, for that. His stories are shorter, though you can see him testing his artistic muscles. Once Lord Julius enters the picture it is gold.
High Society is my favorite arc of all and I think he was really firing on all cylinders, then.
Church and State starts out with the same standards as High Society and the addition of gerhard ups the look of things. Church & State gets a bit wonky and kind of goes slightly off the rails, but is a strong read, overall.
Jaka's Story and Melmoth seem like diversions; but, I, for the most part, liked those stories, though I think they might have been streamlined a bit.
Mothers & Daughters also starts well, then gets a bit uneven, then goes completely off the rails, as Sim's personal issues come into the work and get magnified with Reads. I stuck it out, hoping for some light at the tunnel; but, aside from the Cockroach and the commentary (via him) on the state of 90s comics, I did not enjoy it.
Guys, again, started well, and was a stronger arc overall, though Sim's anti-female components annoyed me.
Rick's Story didn't do much for me, nor did the beginning of Going Home and I tapped out because I didn't want to read about Hemingway and Fitzgerald and all of that. I wasn't enjoying it and didn't care about Sim reaching 300, anymore. His interview with the A-V Club did him no favors and didn't make me want to read the stuff I missed.
So, again, I'd say the first half is a must read and then you have to decide for yourself for the rest.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 26, 2019 20:06:59 GMT -5
I’ve read through Church & State II and liked it. But I’ve not been in mood of his political climate comics. Especially with what’s been going on in the real world, especially the US.
But I really wouldn’t judge the series by the first TPB (phonebook); to me is an absolute different animal than the following volumes I’ve read. Both in writing and how well the art improved with Gerhard’s collaboration. Vastly improved the art.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on May 27, 2019 5:05:26 GMT -5
I've never read Cerebus, and I really have no burning desire too. I always think that the black & white artwork looks really nice, but cutesy, anthropomorphic animals really aren't my thing. In addition, from what I've read online about the views that Dave Sims advocates in the comic and its accompanying text pieces, he's either a dangerously misguided mysoginist and homophobe, or just plain bat shit crazy. Either way, life's much to short to bother dignifying such regressive and short-sighted sentiments by actually reading them.
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Post by berkley on May 27, 2019 5:38:37 GMT -5
Never have liked anthropomorphised animal characters, for the most part - just like I don't like adulticised (made-up word) child characters - and the Disney empire is much to blame in both instances, though obviously not the inventor of either.
There are exceptions - like Kenneth Grahame's Wind in the Willows, which is an off the charts masterpiece that transcends whatever genre anyone tries to limit it inside of.
And Howard the Duck worked for me in spite, or perhaps even because of my distastee for this stuff - because I think Gerber was deliberately playing a little bit on whatever anti-Disney backlash might have been nascent at the time, but even more obviously on Marvel's adolescent or young-adult superhero universe -meant in the double sense of the development of Marvel Inc's fictional universe but also of the readership at the time. Funny animals were felt to be beneath them - and yet he made it work.
But for that very reason, I saw the next few anthropomorphic characters Marvel came up with as failures, cheap copy-cats of Gerber's stroke of genius, so I ws never too taken with Rocket Raccoon, amongst others.
But anyway, yes, I think I should - and I put it that way meaning myself, specifically, not trying to tell anyone else what they should do. - I've read enough of Cerebus that I now wish I had followed it when it first came out.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 27, 2019 6:10:18 GMT -5
I guess I'm in the minority for enjoying the first volume and hating the rest. Cerebus becomes the straight man for a crazy political world in the latter stories.
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Post by Confessor on May 27, 2019 6:12:15 GMT -5
There are exceptions - like Kenneth Grahame's Wind in the Willows, which is an off the charts masterpiece that transcends whatever genre anyone tries to limit it inside of. Agreed. But I think that's because, anthropomorphised though they may be, the animals in Wind in the Willows are not really cutesy. At least not in a Disney-eque way. There's a lot more going on in that book than that, and some of it is very dark or weird indeed. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 27, 2019 6:16:12 GMT -5
It is a remarkable achievement, and is definitely worth reading.
I would stay away from the editorial pages, unless one happens to share all of the author’s views; like Robert E. Howard’s letters, they bring nothing to the story and even cast a shadow over it, as demonstrated by many online comments that are not about the comic but about Sim’s unpopular ideas.
The Cerebus tale itself, though, is amazing. Not reading Cerebus because one doesn’t like his politics is fine, but it’s like not listening to Wagner because he was antisemitic, not reading Tintin because “Tintin in the Congo” presents Africans in an infantilizing way, or not reading a Neal Adams comic because he thinks the Earth grows like a balloon and plate tectonic is fake news.
I could have done without the last few books reinterpreting the Torah, but apparently some readers just loved it... so there’s something for everyone in there.
And the art is brilliant.
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Post by shaxper on May 27, 2019 7:26:50 GMT -5
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Post by Icctrombone on May 27, 2019 7:33:23 GMT -5
By not finishing it, you gave mercy to the members of the forum...  |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 27, 2019 8:31:59 GMT -5
I agree! Especially that since we have now gone beyond the original time schedule, we should be able to discuss every era of the mag. Right?
By the way, I think that Timothy's Callahan's review of the whole series is pretty much spot-on. |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 27, 2019 9:01:32 GMT -5
There are exceptions - like Kenneth Grahame's Wind in the Willows, which is an off the charts masterpiece that transcends whatever genre anyone tries to limit it inside of. Agreed. But I think that's because, anthropomorphised though they may be, the animals in Wind in the Willows are not really cutesy. At least not in a Disney-eque way. There's a lot more going on in that book than that, and some of it is very dark or weird indeed. Nor is Cerebus cutesy. Not in any way. |
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Post by rberman on May 27, 2019 9:11:10 GMT -5
There are exceptions - like Kenneth Grahame's Wind in the Willows, which is an off the charts masterpiece that transcends whatever genre anyone tries to limit it inside of. Agreed. But I think that's because, anthropomorphised though they may be, the animals in Wind in the Willows are not really cutesy. At least not in a Disney-eque way. There's a lot more going on in that book than that, and some of it is very dark or weird indeed. Likewise Watership Down. Animal tales have a long history in myth and fable. Milne's original Winnie-the-Pooh stories are also charming and clever, with some surprising deviations into meta in which the act of telling the story to young Christopher Robin becomes part of the story. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 27, 2019 9:23:28 GMT -5
Agreed. But I think that's because, anthropomorphised though they may be, the animals in Wind in the Willows are not really cutesy. At least not in a Disney-eque way. There's a lot more going on in that book than that, and some of it is very dark or weird indeed. Nor is Cerebus cutesy. Not in any way. True, true... nor is he, in the end, an anthropomorphic animal; aardvarks (or which there are only three alive in the Cerebus series) are clearly defined as misshapen people. That may not have been the original intent, but that's how Sim played it when he introduced Cirin and Suentus Po. Both Cerebus and Cirin suffered for being different, and the ostracism Cirin suffered because of her looks even led her to impose the wearing of face-hiding veils to her followers. |
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