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Post by brianf on May 27, 2019 14:22:40 GMT -5
As someone who loved the early stuff and was buying the floppies when his whole "female void sucking up the male light" garbage started coming out, I still kept buying it hoping it was some kinda meta-joke or something beyond the outright male chauvinism it actually was. So I still have a stack of Cerebus comics I don't plan on re-reading and don't want to own.
If anyone wants a stack of 20-30 Cerebus comics (maybe more? I dunno) I'll ship them to you for free, just cover my postage costs.
Please send me a private message if this interested you.
I'm been thinking of tossing them out but I have a thing against throwing away comics, even ones I hate.
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Confessor
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Post by Confessor on May 27, 2019 16:24:41 GMT -5
Agreed. But I think that's because, anthropomorphised though they may be, the animals in Wind in the Willows are not really cutesy. At least not in a Disney-eque way. There's a lot more going on in that book than that, and some of it is very dark or weird indeed. Nor is Cerebus cutesy. Not in any way. I'm quite prepared to believe that that's true. As I say, I haven't actually read any, but...he sure looks cutesy. |
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Post by rberman on May 27, 2019 16:34:30 GMT -5
Nor is Cerebus cutesy. Not in any way. I'm quite prepared to believe that that's true. As I say, I haven't actually read any, but...he sure looks cutesy. He's more of a foul-tempered schemer like Donald Duck. |
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Post by Confessor on May 27, 2019 16:40:41 GMT -5
Not reading Cerebus because one doesn’t like his politics is fine, but it’s like not listening to Wagner because he was antisemitic, not reading Tintin because “Tintin in the Congo” presents Africans in an infantilizing way, or not reading a Neal Adams comic because he thinks the Earth grows like a balloon and plate tectonic is fake news. Maybe. But I would counter by saying that those aren't really like for like examples. I mean, in the case of Wagner or Neal Adams, their personal views never directly affected their art. Hérge's views did, but then I personally consider Congo (and the other early misfire Land of the Soviets) to be far from decent Tintin adventures. And importantly, Hérge later apologised for his ignorant views and admitted that he was misguided for depicting the Congolese in the manner that he did. As far as I'm aware -- and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong -- Sims' views did directly inform his work, and he has never publicly apologised for them or denounced them. |
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Roquefort Raider
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 27, 2019 16:58:59 GMT -5
Not reading Cerebus because one doesn’t like his politics is fine, but it’s like not listening to Wagner because he was antisemitic, not reading Tintin because “Tintin in the Congo” presents Africans in an infantilizing way, or not reading a Neal Adams comic because he thinks the Earth grows like a balloon and plate tectonic is fake news. Maybe. But I would counter by saying that those aren't really like for like examples. I mean, in the case of Wagner or Neal Adams, their personal views never directly affected their art. Hérge's views did, but then I personally consider Congo (and the other early misfire Land of the Soviets) to be far from decent Tintin adventures. And importantly, Hérge later apologised for his ignorant views and admitted that he was misguided for depicting the Congolese in the manner that he did. As far as I'm aware -- and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong -- Sims' views did directly inform his work, and he has never publicly apologised for them or denounced them. That’s actually why I used those examples; Dave Sim’s views do not inform his art. And that is, in fact, a fascinating aspect of Cerebus, psychologically-wise: for all that his editorial pages talk about female voids and male lights and how women strangle men’s creativity or whatever, his characters are so well-rounded that they disprove his expressed opinions. Most major male characters in Cerebus are childish, selfish, emotionally dependent and often more than a little pathetic. Most major female characters in Cerebus are strong, self-reliant, intelligent and adult. It was particularly apparent in the Going Home story arc, in which Cerebus and his lifelong love Jaka are finally together, and free to do whatever they want. According to interviews that were published later, Sim intended to show how Jaka was selfish, silly and other choice epithets, revealing that her image as the perfect princess was just a sham. Well, I’m not going to argue about what the creator of a story intended, but that!s absolutely not what the tale shows. What we readers witness firsthand is in fact the exact opposite: how it is Cerebus, the so-called “male light” who completely screws up the relationship thanks to his insecurities, his jealousy, his inability to communicate anything but his most primal needs. At the end of Going Home, I doubt anyone thought “wow, Jaka sure is a lousy girlfriend”, but rather “Cerebus has to be the perfect example of the worst boyfriend imaginable”. I hope the Cerebus thread gets revived so people here can discuss these issues at length, for the series is definitely worth talking about! |
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Post by codystarbuck on May 27, 2019 17:21:33 GMT -5
Maybe. But I would counter by saying that those aren't really like for like examples. I mean, in the case of Wagner or Neal Adams, their personal views never directly affected their art. Hérge's views did, but then I personally consider Congo (and the other early misfire Land of the Soviets) to be far from decent Tintin adventures. And importantly, Hérge later apologised for his ignorant views and admitted that he was misguided for depicting the Congolese in the manner that he did. As far as I'm aware -- and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong -- Sims' views did directly inform his work, and he has never publicly apologised for them or denounced them. That’s actually why I used those examples; Dave Sim’s views do not inform his art. And that is, in fact, a fascinating aspect of Cerebus, psychologically-wise: for all that his editorial pages talk about female voids and male lights and how women strangle men’s creativity or whatever, his characters are so well-rounded that they disprove his expressed opinions. Most major male characters in Cerebus are childish, selfish, emotionally dependent and often more than a little pathetic. Most major female characters in Cerebus are strong, self-reliant, intelligent and adult. It was particularly apparent in the Going Home story arc, in which Cerebus and his lifelong love Jaka are finally together, and free to do whatever they want. According to interviews that were published later, Sim intended to show how Jaka was selfish, silly and other choice epithets, revealing that her image as the perfect princess was just a sham. Well, I’m not going to argue about what the creator of a story intended, but that!s absolutely not what the tale shows. What we readers witness firsthand is in fact the exact opposite: how it is Cerebus, the so-called “male light” who completely screws up the relationship thanks to his insecurities, his jealousy, his inability to communicate anything but his most primal needs. At the end of Going Home, I doubt anyone thought “wow, Jaka sure is a lousy girlfriend”, but rather “Cerebus has to be the perfect example of the worst boyfriend imaginable”. I hope the Cerebus thread gets revived so people here can discuss these issues at length, for the series is definitely worth talking about! That's where I tapped out; but, Mothers & Daughters and, to a lesser extent, Guys, pretty much illustrated Sim's views on the subject. Perhaps he pulled back a bit by Going Home, consciously or not. I would say that Jaka proved to be a stronger character than you would believe, based on his gibberish, though Artemis and Cirin are more of his stand ins for how he views women. That said, yeah, they do prove to be far more capable then Cerebus. Me, I liked it better when he was using more broad satire, rather than satirizing broads! (I'll go say my penance for that joke). Really, the long, slow diversions wore me down as much as the content. Sim got so decompressed and went on so many tangents that I just stopped caring about the main story. I was also past the stage where I felt I had to red something, because it was IMPORTANT! and was more interested in reading something that I thought sounded cool and entertaining. cerebus used to be that for me; but hadn't been for a while, by the time of Going Home. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 28, 2019 11:38:22 GMT -5
Following on, "Mothers & Daughters" showed the beginning of his truly repellent gender politics (and also a trend towards puerile humor, oddly), and yet the single most interesting, mature and well-rounded character in the book is Astoria. If anything, she's the protagonist on my view.
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Post by EdoBosnar on May 28, 2019 13:51:13 GMT -5
Following on, "Mothers & Daughters" showed the beginning of his truly repellent gender politics (and also a trend towards puerile humor, oddly), and yet the single most interesting, mature and well-rounded character in the book is Astoria. If anything, she's the protagonist on my view. Oddly? It seems to me that people who subscribe to repellent gender politics/stereotypes also generally tend to favor puerile humor. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on May 28, 2019 15:35:51 GMT -5
Following on, "Mothers & Daughters" showed the beginning of his truly repellent gender politics (and also a trend towards puerile humor, oddly), and yet the single most interesting, mature and well-rounded character in the book is Astoria. If anything, she's the protagonist on my view. I couldn't possibly disagree less! Astoria shines in that run, and apart from maybe Suentus Po, all the other main characters come across as petulant idiots compared to her. |
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 28, 2019 15:52:13 GMT -5
Following on, "Mothers & Daughters" showed the beginning of his truly repellent gender politics (and also a trend towards puerile humor, oddly), and yet the single most interesting, mature and well-rounded character in the book is Astoria. If anything, she's the protagonist on my view. I couldn't possibly disagree less! Astoria shines in that run, and apart from maybe Suentus Po, all the other main characters come across as petulant idiots compared to her. As far as I have read (through Church & State II) she is the most stable and strong and the most contrary to Sim's opinions (as I hear, I've never had the desire to read them) female character, if not character period in Cerebus. |
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 29, 2019 11:39:26 GMT -5
Following on, "Mothers & Daughters" showed the beginning of his truly repellent gender politics (and also a trend towards puerile humor, oddly), and yet the single most interesting, mature and well-rounded character in the book is Astoria. If anything, she's the protagonist on my view. Oddly? It seems to me that people who subscribe to repellent gender politics/stereotypes also generally tend to favor puerile humor.
There's something to that, perhaps, but in this case to see someone transitioning from at least neutral views on gender politics (and remember he stated that he found Red Sonja's rape fantasy theme disturbing) to some kind of stridently conservative view as a result of a turn towards religion ... to have that also shift from relatively sophisticated humor towards juvenile body fluid humor simultaneously was ... odd.
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Post by mikelmidnight on May 29, 2019 11:41:04 GMT -5
As great as she is in Church & State, she's even better in the Flight/Mothers & Daughters/etc arc.
"Go away." Wow.
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Post by adamwarlock2099 on May 29, 2019 11:53:21 GMT -5
As great as she is in Church & State, she's even better in the Flight/Mothers & Daughters/etc arc.
"Go away." Wow.
Maybe the current flux of discussion of Cerebus here will get me out of the "not been reading comics" funk I've been in for a while. Astoria is a great character. One, if not, my favorite. |
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2019 12:09:49 GMT -5
I'm quite prepared to believe that that's true. As I say, I haven't actually read any, but...he sure looks cutesy. He's more of a foul-tempered schemer like Donald Duck. He's lifted almost directly from Gerber's Howard The Duck, especially after the first 20 or so issues. And, in that vein, he is cutesy, but unwillingly so. |
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Post by shaxper on May 30, 2019 12:29:35 GMT -5
Maybe. But I would counter by saying that those aren't really like for like examples. I mean, in the case of Wagner or Neal Adams, their personal views never directly affected their art. Hérge's views did, but then I personally consider Congo (and the other early misfire Land of the Soviets) to be far from decent Tintin adventures. And importantly, Hérge later apologised for his ignorant views and admitted that he was misguided for depicting the Congolese in the manner that he did. As far as I'm aware -- and feel free to correct me if I'm wrong -- Sims' views did directly inform his work, and he has never publicly apologised for them or denounced them. That’s actually why I used those examples; Dave Sim’s views do not inform his art. And that is, in fact, a fascinating aspect of Cerebus, psychologically-wise: for all that his editorial pages talk about female voids and male lights and how women strangle men’s creativity or whatever, his characters are so well-rounded that they disprove his expressed opinions. Most major male characters in Cerebus are childish, selfish, emotionally dependent and often more than a little pathetic. Most major female characters in Cerebus are strong, self-reliant, intelligent and adult. It was particularly apparent in the Going Home story arc, in which Cerebus and his lifelong love Jaka are finally together, and free to do whatever they want. According to interviews that were published later, Sim intended to show how Jaka was selfish, silly and other choice epithets, revealing that her image as the perfect princess was just a sham. Well, I’m not going to argue about what the creator of a story intended, but that!s absolutely not what the tale shows. What we readers witness firsthand is in fact the exact opposite: how it is Cerebus, the so-called “male light” who completely screws up the relationship thanks to his insecurities, his jealousy, his inability to communicate anything but his most primal needs. At the end of Going Home, I doubt anyone thought “wow, Jaka sure is a lousy girlfriend”, but rather “Cerebus has to be the perfect example of the worst boyfriend imaginable”. I hope the Cerebus thread gets revived so people here can discuss these issues at length, for the series is definitely worth talking about! I think the single most fascinating thing that came out of our discussions in The Reading Society was the theory (which I now totally subscribe to) that the Dave Sim of the letters page was, himself, a creation of the real Dave Sim. It makes sense, especially since "Dave Sim" appears in the Cerebus comic, and it explains so much of the contradictions of the series. So often, the work seems to judge both Cerebus and Sim for their ignorance. Either that, or he's one hell of a head case. |
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