|
Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 14, 2019 20:26:35 GMT -5
So... which earth had Ace The Bat Hound? I was thinking Earth 2 and whatever the cartoon version is, but there may be more to this than I knew. Would Ace get to meet Krypto? We took the two younger boys to Build-a-Bear when the little one was about 4 and the older one 9. Connor made a little brown dog and the dressed him in a Batman outfit and named him Ace.
|
|
|
Post by Duragizer on Jun 14, 2019 20:44:43 GMT -5
Why would a dog need to wear a mask?
Why am I questioning the logic of Silver Age Batman comics?
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 14, 2019 21:03:49 GMT -5
Ace has to be an Earth-One character because of the issue where Bat-Mite was riding around on his back and Bat-Mite is definitely an Earth-One character.
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Jun 14, 2019 23:21:44 GMT -5
We took the two younger boys to Build-a-Bear when the little one was about 4 and the older one 9. Connor made a little brown dog and the dressed him in a Batman outfit and named him Ace. I think there was a build-a-bear at Yellowstone Bearworld when I visited it in Rexburg, but don't know if they had non-bears available at that particular one (being their world and all). Maybe we can have Ace in the 1.5 Earth? Or there could be an Ace on all Earths. Oh, and I always suspected he needed a mask due to possible identification of him as a model German Shepard that appeared in tv and print features and endorsements (famous show-biz family; his grandfather was Rin Tin Tin).
|
|
|
Post by Cei-U! on Jun 15, 2019 7:09:12 GMT -5
We took the two younger boys to Build-a-Bear when the little one was about 4 and the older one 9. Connor made a little brown dog and the dressed him in a Batman outfit and named him Ace. I think there was a build-a-bear at Yellowstone Bearworld when I visited it in Rexburg, but don't know if they had non-bears available at that particular one (being their world and all). Maybe we can have Ace in the 1.5 Earth? Or there could be an Ace on all Earths. Oh, and I always suspected he needed a mask due to possible identification of him as a model German Shepard that appeared in tv and print features and endorsements (famous show-biz family; his grandfather was Rin Tin Tin). You're actually right. In the story that introduced Bat-Hound, it was established that Ace had a distinctive marking on his forehead that the mask hid.
Cei-U! I summon the caped canine!
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 15, 2019 12:33:38 GMT -5
I think there was a build-a-bear at Yellowstone Bearworld when I visited it in Rexburg, but don't know if they had non-bears available at that particular one (being their world and all). Maybe we can have Ace in the 1.5 Earth? Or there could be an Ace on all Earths. Oh, and I always suspected he needed a mask due to possible identification of him as a model German Shepard that appeared in tv and print features and endorsements (famous show-biz family; his grandfather was Rin Tin Tin). You're actually right. In the story that introduced Bat-Hound, it was established that Ace had a distinctive marking on his forehead that the mask hid. Cei-U! I summon the caped canine!
I was just about to mention this when I saw your post! I'm surprised I remember this. Ace is not one of my favorites, and I don't remember reading his origin story. I'm sure I saw it some anthology or other. Still, I love how he's used in THIS wonderful story … Published in 1960! That's Earth-1. Another Ace story I love is "The Secret Life of Bat-Hound" from Batman #125 (although I saw it in Batman Annual #7). Ace narrates the story, so he gets lots of thought balloons and narrative captions! It's hilarious!
|
|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Jun 15, 2019 12:44:45 GMT -5
The first thing I'd do is leave out any story where the Waynes were killed by a conspiracy. BOOOO! It was Joe Chill, a desperate first-time criminal who was acting tough and things got out of hand. He later started a trucking business which he used as a front to transport fugitives to places of safety. But eventually, Batman caught up to him and he was killed by his fellow thugs when they found out he was the reason for Batman's existence. I like the story where Thomas Wayne wore a bat costume to a masquerade party, but in my version, Lew Moxon didn't have anything to do with Joe Chill. I'm someone who can't help but cringe when post-Crisis retellings of Batman's origin have a bat crash through a pane of glass rather than simply fly though an open window. Miller's revision beats Wayne over the head with its symbolic imagery to the point where the decision to become a bat is something Wayne is pretty much being ordered to do by the hand of destiny. I mean, if a bat dramatically flies through a sheet of glass in slow motion, what's he supposed to think? Finger's origin however, lets Wayne determine whether he wants to regard this event as an omen (even after chastising criminals for being a "superstitious lot") or just a coincidence he can choose to ignore. Yes, yes, Finger wasn't exactly subtle either about the timing of that bat himself, but there's a little too much "the bat chose Wayne" rather than the other way around in Miller's take. Even the image of the pearls slowly drifting to the ground bugs me without really changing too much (Chill didn't actually get his hands on them in Detective 33 but I can understand the artistic licence and it is a fantastic looking shot, I'll admit) since it's become too much of a focus when recounting the death of the Waynes to the point where I believe Grant Morrison felt a need to explain why the pearls broke apart the way they did when beads are strung in such a way that only one or two should have broken off (his explanation? They were imitations). So, my point is that I'm not someone who really cares for the slightest deviation to Batman's origin even though these two alterations are relatively minor and yet, there's something I like about the biggest change ever made to Batman's origin - the idea that it was a hit and not a random shooting. Part of it has to do with the fact that "The First Batman!" is a fantastic story and yeah, I suppose nostalgia plays a part, but there's more to it than that. See, as great as Batman's origin is in its simplicity, there are some details which bother me about it. Even as a kid who had no problem with super-ventriloquism, Alfred pinch hitting for Batman, and even Batman taking down The Hulk, I couldn't help but figure out that Chill only seems to become interested in killing Thomas Wayne (as opposed to simply robbing him) when Wayne rushes towards him. I suppose Chill might have shot them regardless, but it's Wayne who makes sure of it. I used to wonder about that awkward placement of Bruce standing next to Chill in the last panel like he's planning to live with him now, but it kind of makes me wonder if he didn't simply figure that between his father's bravado and his mother's screaming for the police, he needed to be well clear of them before eithered of them said something like "Bruce! Get a good look at this guy so you can tell the police who he is afterwards!" However, if Chill is merely a hitman, then Thomas Wayne is acting courageously rather than recklessly. He knows that this is how Moxon intends to get his revenge, knows that he's about to be assassinated, and while rushing Chill gives him only a slim chance of survival, it's also his only chance. One origin has Wayne turning a robbery into a double homicide, whereas the other has him making a valiant effort to turn a double homicide into a close cut. Now, the idea that Thomas Wayne was a Batman of sorts when his son was just a boy? Pretty silly, but even there I can't help but admit that behind the giant penny and dinosaur, Thomas Wayne's Bat costume is my favorite piece in the Bat-Cave's trophy room. Besides, who am I to argue with Bill Finger if he wants to elaborate upon Batman's origin anyway?
|
|
|
Post by beccabear67 on Jun 15, 2019 13:39:03 GMT -5
I read some of those giant treasury Batman '40s reprint comics back in the '70s and between the horror of his parents being killed in front of him and the corpses left with Joker's grin in another story I'm sure I had nightmares. It was pretty effective stuff if crude seeming now. Also some really scary giant gangsters in another story. These things are up there with the ants with human criminal faces on the Outer Limts!
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 15, 2019 14:42:53 GMT -5
The first thing I'd do is leave out any story where the Waynes were killed by a conspiracy. BOOOO! It was Joe Chill, a desperate first-time criminal who was acting tough and things got out of hand. He later started a trucking business which he used as a front to transport fugitives to places of safety. But eventually, Batman caught up to him and he was killed by his fellow thugs when they found out he was the reason for Batman's existence. I like the story where Thomas Wayne wore a bat costume to a masquerade party, but in my version, Lew Moxon didn't have anything to do with Joe Chill. Besides, who am I to argue with Bill Finger if he wants to elaborate upon Batman's origin anyway? That's a very good point that I've certainly thought about, and it's why I want to keep a slightly modified version of "The First Batman" in my Batman chronology. But I like Batman's origin a lot better if Joe Chill is acting on his own, a desperate character who needs dough FAST. It becomes a tragic crime, a random act of violence that could happen to anybody, which I find a lot more relatable and poignant. As for Thomas Wayne being a macho dumb-ass who may have caused a double homicide by his recklessness, I think he's a little more human with a character trait like that instead of being the saintly figure he's often portrayed as. Besides, there's been so much rationalization of those few panels from Detective Comics #33 that it's easy to rationalize your way out of this one as well, if you've a mind to.
|
|
|
Post by chadwilliam on Jun 15, 2019 23:38:10 GMT -5
Besides, who am I to argue with Bill Finger if he wants to elaborate upon Batman's origin anyway? That's a very good point that I've certainly thought about, and it's why I want to keep a slightly modified version of "The First Batman" in my Batman chronology. But I like Batman's origin a lot better if Joe Chill is acting on his own, a desperate character who needs dough FAST. It becomes a tragic crime, a random act of violence that could happen to anybody, which I find a lot more relatable and poignant. As for Thomas Wayne being a macho dumb-ass who may have caused a double homicide by his recklessness, I think he's a little more human with a character trait like that instead of being the saintly figure he's often portrayed as. Besides, there's been so much rationalization of those few panels from Detective Comics #33 that it's easy to rationalize your way out of this one as well, if you've a mind to. You know, if you really wanted to keep The First Batman intact within your chronology and still have Chill acting alone, you could tell yourself that while Moxon did hire a hitman to kill the Waynes, it wasn't Chill he hired but someone else. Who was Joe Chill then? Just some mugger who happened to kill a guy he didn't know had already been marked for death. In fact, Grant Morrison's Gothic (LOTDK 6-10) had Bruce Wayne's headmaster plan to kill Thomas Wayne himself for catching on to the fact that he was a child killer. The only reason he didn't was because someone else got there first. You could do the same thing with Chill and Moxon. Now Moxon does admit hiring "Joey Chill" to kill Wayne just before he runs in front of a truck, but you could tell yourself that seeing Thomas Wayne's ghost (or rather Batman in his dad's old costume) didn't restore the memories he lost after the killings with 100% accuracy. I mean, he's still somewhat addled by the sight of Wayne when he appears in his office, so maybe he remembered who Wayne was after all, remembered hiring a killer just as we know he did, but used Chill's name not because Chill was the guy he hired, but because just a few days ago, Batman was waving his finger in face accusing him over and over of hiring some guy named Joey Chill to kill Thomas Wayne which left the name fresh enough in his mind that in his confused state with all sorts of memories flooding back into his mind, it became the first name he thought of when he asked himself "who was it I got to kill Wayne again? Oh yeah, 'Joey Chill' sounds about right." It would mean Batman hounded a man innocent of his parents death to his grave, but eh, so what? He was still a killer.
|
|
|
Post by Hoosier X on Jun 16, 2019 16:34:47 GMT -5
That's a very good point that I've certainly thought about, and it's why I want to keep a slightly modified version of "The First Batman" in my Batman chronology. But I like Batman's origin a lot better if Joe Chill is acting on his own, a desperate character who needs dough FAST. It becomes a tragic crime, a random act of violence that could happen to anybody, which I find a lot more relatable and poignant. As for Thomas Wayne being a macho dumb-ass who may have caused a double homicide by his recklessness, I think he's a little more human with a character trait like that instead of being the saintly figure he's often portrayed as. Besides, there's been so much rationalization of those few panels from Detective Comics #33 that it's easy to rationalize your way out of this one as well, if you've a mind to. You know, if you really wanted to keep The First Batman intact within your chronology and still have Chill acting alone, you could tell yourself that while Moxon did hire a hitman to kill the Waynes, it wasn't Chill he hired but someone else. Who was Joe Chill then? Just some mugger who happened to kill a guy he didn't know had already been marked for death. In fact, Grant Morrison's Gothic (LOTDK 6-10) had Bruce Wayne's headmaster plan to kill Thomas Wayne himself for catching on to the fact that he was a child killer. The only reason he didn't was because someone else got there first. You could do the same thing with Chill and Moxon. Now Moxon does admit hiring "Joey Chill" to kill Wayne just before he runs in front of a truck, but you could tell yourself that seeing Thomas Wayne's ghost (or rather Batman in his dad's old costume) didn't restore the memories he lost after the killings with 100% accuracy. I mean, he's still somewhat addled by the sight of Wayne when he appears in his office, so maybe he remembered who Wayne was after all, remembered hiring a killer just as we know he did, but used Chill's name not because Chill was the guy he hired, but because just a few days ago, Batman was waving his finger in face accusing him over and over of hiring some guy named Joey Chill to kill Thomas Wayne which left the name fresh enough in his mind that in his confused state with all sorts of memories flooding back into his mind, it became the first name he thought of when he asked himself "who was it I got to kill Wayne again? Oh yeah, 'Joey Chill' sounds about right." It would mean Batman hounded a man innocent of his parents death to his grave, but eh, so what? He was still a killer. I don't want to keep "The First Batman" THAT bad.
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2019 15:08:09 GMT -5
Following @draketungsten 's list I added a few more issues to my initial list from Batman and Robin Adventures to flesh out my appearances for Batgirl. In my thought experiment, I'm wondering if I include Killing Joke at all, it's always been troubling to me for many reasons...but I like the outcome of Barbara as Oracle. For purposes of my imaginary continuity I'm wondering if Babs need be crippled to decide to be Oracle? You're reading of that period is more complete than mine shaxper ; I can't pinpoint an issue but wasn't there a story where Barbara decides to quit being Batgirl? Maybe even in Batman Family? If so, I think that might be a better transition to Oracle for me.
|
|
shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
|
Post by shaxper on Jun 25, 2019 15:15:23 GMT -5
In my thought experiment, I'm wondering if I include Killing Joke at all, it's always been troubling to me for many reasons...but I like the outcome of Barbara as Oracle. For purposes of my imaginary continuity I'm wondering if Babs need be crippled to decide to be Oracle? You're reading of that period is more complete than mine shaxper ; I can't pinpoint an issue but wasn't there a story where Barbara decides to quit being Batgirl? Maybe even in Batman Family? If so, I think that might be a better transition to Oracle for me. 1. My perspective on Killing Joke has always been that the version we read is not exactly the version that occurred in continuity. After all, Batman's using a 1940's Batmobile, and (depending upon your interpretation) he murders The Joker at the end. So I've always accepted that the events of Killing Joke basically happened, but not exactly as portrayed. 2. Batgirl first quit in 'Tec #422, believing she could accomplish more as a congresswoman. She was ready to quit again during Crisis on Infinite Earths, but then only because Wolfman wrote her as ineffective and suffering from an inferiority complex . So you can find multiple rationalizations for her to quit being Batgirl. 3. Babs becoming Oracle was first explained and chronicled in Suicide Squad #48, and the transformation was heavily tied to the events of The Killing Joke, so you pretty much have to acknowledge that work unless you're looking to create your own retcon.
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2019 15:31:12 GMT -5
In my thought experiment, I'm wondering if I include Killing Joke at all, it's always been troubling to me for many reasons...but I like the outcome of Barbara as Oracle. For purposes of my imaginary continuity I'm wondering if Babs need be crippled to decide to be Oracle? You're reading of that period is more complete than mine shaxper ; I can't pinpoint an issue but wasn't there a story where Barbara decides to quit being Batgirl? Maybe even in Batman Family? If so, I think that might be a better transition to Oracle for me. 1. My perspective on Killing Joke has always been that the version we read is not exactly the version that occurred in continuity. After all, Batman's using a 1940's Batmobile, and (depending upon your interpretation) he murders The Joker at the end. So I've always accepted that the events of Killing Joke basically happened, but not exactly as portrayed. 2. Batgirl first quit in 'Tec #422, believing she could accomplish more as a congresswoman. She was ready to quit again during Crisis on Infinite Earths, but then only because Wolfman wrote her as ineffective and suffering from an inferiority complex . So you can find multiple rationalizations for her to quit being Batgirl. 3. Babs becoming Oracle was first explained and chronicled in Suicide Squad #48, and the transformation was heavily tied to the events of The Killing Joke, so you pretty much have to acknowledge that work unless you're looking to create your own retcon. I'm cool with squinting my eyes and retconning it away for the purposes of my own imaginary continuity, I did similarly in the early part of my list in introducing a few of the iconic villains as the stories feature Robin...but in my continuity occur before Dick ever becomes Robin.
|
|
|
Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 25, 2019 17:23:27 GMT -5
I haven't read daughter of the Demon in some time now and I loved the slight absurdity of Batman in regular winter gear...and his traditional cowl.
|
|