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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 23, 2019 18:43:55 GMT -5
First issue looked great and I liked the redesign of WW2 Cap as a real super Soldier, with a variation on a GIs uniform. I think the mask needed a bit more work, though; and the webbing isn't very logical. I think the problem is that Hytch didn't want to break up the image of Cap's jacket, so he has straps going around the side, to the back; but, not across the chest. real military webbing, in that period, would have been a suspender-type harness, connected to the web belt. I don't get the point of the straps under the arms, as it doesn't add support or stabilize. It seems a weird detail to add. I kind of wonder if he started to give Cap a shoulder holster, then decided not to, but kept that look. The paratroopers in a B-24 shows that we aren't dealing with American creators, here. British paras often jumped from Wellington and Lancaster bombers; but, Americans almost exclusively jumped from C-47 Skytrains (aka the DC-3 Dakota). The paras also jumped from tem during Operation Market Garden. Either Millar or Hytch read about the paras jumping from bombers and assumed all paratroops did, or they wanted a recognizable warplane, rather than a cargo plane, or they justified it by it being a dangerous and long range mission. I got no problem with Cap riding a bomber down in a controlled crash, as his agility could work to save him, there. i do have a problem with jumping without a parachute and turning Cap into a far more Super soldier than Simon & Kirby made him. Original Cap didn't shrug off bullets or jump safely from a thousand feet up. That vulnerability made the adventures more exciting. Removing that lessens the character, in my eyes and makes his triumphs less amazing. The Nazi tech thing was also used in Filmation's Flash Gordon: The Greatest Adventure of all movie. It had been commissioned as a prime time feature film, which so impressed NBC that they asked for a Saturday morning series. The cartoon series debuted first and made heavy use of the footage from the film, for the first 4 episodes. Then, it reused footage throughout, for the remaining episodes, though it left out the opening sequence, which begins during the German bombing of Warsaw. In the film, it is revealed that Ming has been supplying the Nazis with more advanced technology and we see a model of the V-2 rocket, which hasn't been used yet (suggesting it will be his next offering) In that case, Ming is deliberately giving them technology that is more advanced than their own; but, nowhere near as advanced as Mongo, so that they are no threat to him (until he encounters Zarkov's rocket, which has cannons and speed that rivals Ming's own weaponry. Loved issue one (nitpicks aside) and was really jonesin for more. The Cap stuff had been previewed before the issue shipped; so, when we saw the full thing, I was really excited. The Sam Jack thing I accepted; but, wasn't overly thrilled with. The Ultimate line seemed to go out of its way to visabley recast ethnicities of characters, to try to balance things. While I have no problem with wanting to increase diversity in the book, the constant recasting of characters got to be a bit ridiculous, after a while. I would prefer they just create a new character, out of whole cloth, like Miles Morales. It tends to work out better. The model for Thor seems to be Hulk Hogan, rather than Mickey Rourke. Both are of an age to have been young when Hogan was a star, which crossed over to the UK (helping to pretty much kill British wrestling, as a national promotion thing). The basic look is very much a younger Hogan, right down to the horseshoe moustache. I wouldn't put it past Marvel to be taking money for deliberate product placement in their comics. Around this time, word got out that companies were paying publishers to insert product name into novels and other things. It might be Millar and Hytch using pop culture to sound hip (though name dropping twinkies isn't going to do that); but, it could just as easily be real product placement. I kind of doubt it or Gary Groth would have made a big stink about it. I was more uneasy about the politics than you. It seemed like Millar was thinking like too many out there who think that 1940s and Greatest Generation was synonymous with God, Country and Apple Pie, as interpreted by Joseph McCarthy, John Wayne and Ronald Reagan. For some it was; but, Franklin Delano Roosevelt was massively popular and GIS were just as likely to be New Deal Democrats, Socialists, or even Communists. A large percentage were more likely to just be average, middle of the road kind of people, until a specific issue that hit home came up. So, a more conservative Cap struck me as a bit out of character and suggested to me that Millar was making comment on Bush and Murica. Book 1 isn't as bad about that' but, Book two hammers it home, as it becomes a metaphor for the War on Terror and America as the Last Superpower and such, though; by the end of it, you could see where he was going with it. I had been put off, by that point, and stopped getting the book, until it was collected and I could read the whole thing and see how Loki played things and the state of the team, at the end. To me, it illustrated the rather ham-fisted approach that Millar has with these kinds of things, which I thought grew worse in subsequent projects. I kind of felt the same way with his run on The Authority, vs Ellis. Book 1 I still think works really, really well (as can be judged by how closely the early Marvel films follow its lead). I think the wheels come off later and the vehicle goes off a cliff when Ultimates continued without Hytch and Millar. Ultimates was the only Ultimate Universe book I bought, though I sampled Spider-Man, in the trades, at my store (never paid money for them, though). Bendis seemed to get the right tone for Parker, though I couldn't really read much of it without feeling like "Been there, done that, and it was better." I saw it as what it was, a way for younger people to try to read it, without wikipedia bookmarked (I was gonna say with "keeping an encyclopedia hand," then realized how old I am). X-Men I didn't care about, as I couldn't be arsed to look at X-Men since Paul Smith and felt everything that followed was just more of the same, only this gave them the movie costumes. It seemed meant for people who discovered X-men in the film and not me. The FF just didn't feel right, at all. Then again, I think Marvel has struggled with them for a generation, with brief moments of clarity. Seriously, if Disney tries to do the FF asa movie, again, let Brad Bird direct. He gets it; see Incredibles. The Triskelion made more sense to me if it were further away from shore and more isolated. I kind of assumed they were basing it on the Mobile Offshore Base (MOB) project, that the Defense Department had been working on. Back when I was in the Navy (dawn of the 90s) Popular Science had an article on the concept, with a typical futurist image of a large artificial island, complete with landing fields and piers. The actual concepts designs were a bit less imaginative a not much more advanced than the platform in the 1930s movie, FP1 Doesn't Answer. I thought it was a cool idea for a Doc Savage type to have a mobile island base like that, or even as an idea for Blackhawk Island. I didn't like the idea of reducing the Helicarrier to being one of many. Having a single one seemed more impressive and logical, given the logical cost outlay for something like that. Back to the regular stuff; Thor was the character who had me guessing where they were going for a while. It seemed like Millar was going back and forth, suggesting he was a deluded mutant or the actual Thunder God, until we get to the climactic battle with Loki and get Bifrost and all that. Not overly keen on the obvious anime/mecha-influence on the iron Man armor; but, wasn't surprised by it, then. Seemed like that generation of artists had all been influenced by Voltron and Robotech and the anime imports that followed. I also kept waiting for Tony's alcoholism to become a major plot point; but, it seemed like both Ultimates and the MCU was unwilling to go there (which seems rather reckless and insecure, to me). I would have thought Downey would have pushed to portray that, though IM 3 kind of explored some of that dynamic, transposing it into PTSD, instead of compulsive behavior in response to psychological issues.
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Post by rberman on Jun 23, 2019 21:51:56 GMT -5
I'm glad you're covering The Ultimates. It was on my lengthy list of stories I wanted to see reviewed, and with you doing this, I can comment and still do something else. So, win/win! The first issue got expanded into a whole film for Captain America: the First Avenger. That was a good call, rather than just making Cap's WWII escapades a prelude, as they were in The Ultimates. But in either case, the gritty "Saving Private Ryan" war scenes ground the story in reality before people start flying around, visiting space, etc. Check out this double splash to do Kirby and Kubert proud: Or this beauteous scene that introduces Tony Stark at the end of a six week fast in the Himalayas. Not your usual Tony! Note that Cap's facemask on the cover is the traditional cowl, not the Nighthawk-style helmet he sports in the interior.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 23, 2019 22:42:13 GMT -5
I always say this, but my favorite versions of the Avengers are Ulimates and Marvel Adventures: Avengers. I'm definitely a pretty huge fan of the Lee/Kirby/Heck run but the basic story logic is flimsy. Why are these people who don't really like each other hanging out? And I think that's always been a weakness of the "regular" Avengers... since the Ultimates have a reason to exist, and function as a team it grounds the concept, makes the character dynamics sharper, and provides a logical springboard for future stories.
Although I'm annoyed that the '00s Avengers books ripped off the Ultimates militaristic tone.
It's a little sad how the concept just seemed to yield diminishing returns. Like Ultimate Spider-Man I thought wasn't as good at it's peak but it was rock solid quality-wise throughout it's decade plus run. The Ultimates peaked in the early issues and... just... got.. worse.
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Post by rberman on Jun 23, 2019 23:17:51 GMT -5
Issue #2:The Baxter Building makes an appearance in the lower right of this cityscape. Jarvis is not as debonaire as he could be; he ought to be trimming his bald head or even shaving it entirely. Instead he has a comb-over. Bruce Banner is a nerd, with posters of Star Wars and Buffy the Vampire Slayer in his apartment. Also two of his graduation pictures on the walls. Judging by his mouse being on the left side of the keyboard, Hank Pym is left handed. This is often code for a character being "sinister." Janet Pym is depicted as a sassy, pixie-cutted S.H.I.E.L.D. agent. This was just before the similar size-changer Shrinking Violet got a similarly sassy makeover into the assassin Atom Girl in Mark Waid's Legion of Superheroes "Threeboot."
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Post by rberman on Jun 23, 2019 23:32:59 GMT -5
Issue #3: Not much to add here. I'm puzzled by Steve's new costume. It isn't a straight reproduction of his WWII costume. It has a cowl instead of a helmet and chin strap. It has a round shield instead of, um, the other kind. So why does it have a canteen? Is he going camping?
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Post by rberman on Jun 23, 2019 23:49:01 GMT -5
Issue #4: A few minor questions. What unknown grafitti artist misspelled "perseverance" as "preseverance"? Why did a word balloon get placed over Freddie Prinze Jr.'s face? Whose scanned-in photo graces the wall of this anonymous Manhattan apartment? Hitch's daughter perhaps?
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 24, 2019 8:30:34 GMT -5
The paratroopers in a B-24 shows that we aren't dealing with American creators, here. British paras often jumped from Wellington and Lancaster bombers; but, Americans almost exclusively jumped from C-47 Skytrains (aka the DC-3 Dakota). The paras also jumped from tem during Operation Market Garden. Either Millar or Hytch read about the paras jumping from bombers and assumed all paratroops did, or they wanted a recognizable warplane, rather than a cargo plane, or they justified it by it being a dangerous and long range mission. If I had to guess, I’d say that the B-24 just looks cooler than a DC-3! The long range mission aspect works too, as the drop is made over Iceland; the range of the B-24 (roughly 2,600 km, according the the Encyclopedia Britannica that I had to consult) would just about cover a round trip from Scotland to Iceland. It’s always cool to have your opinion on military matters, codystarbuck, as you have actual experience in these things! I guess. It works for me, though; I don’t really mind Ultimate Cap to be super-strong, even if it takes some of the realism away. I actually have more of a problem with “regular” Cap punching Iron Man in the face... Stark wears a steel helmet, for crying out loud! No matter how hard Steve punches, he’d just end up breaking all the bones in his hand! That’s an interesting reversal of what happened in the Flash Gordon comic strip, back when the United States were facing a fictional invader that was a stand-in for Nazi Germany. It was Flash who left Earth and returned to Mongo to get advanced weaponry! (I doubt the allies ever got those, however, as politics on Mongo delayed our hero until Alex Raymond stopped producing the strip). You won’t see me arguing about how new characters are superior to reinterpretations of old ones, especially when the publishers try hard to pretend that the old version never existed (as when the new Nova was introduced and Richard Ryder was all of a sudden forgotten, or when the MU Nick Fury turned out to have a black son also named Nick Fury with the same eyepatch. Ugh. However, changing the ethnicity, gender or sexual orientation of characters in a different universe is fine with me... It is, after all, a different universe. Ultimate Iceman is gay? Sure, why not. Regular Iceman is gay? Pull the other one. We’ve known him for decades and he’s not. That’s a good call, but in other pictures Thor looks like Kurt Russell, while in yet other ones he looks like Brad Pitt. Maybe Hitch didn’t really use a single model for the Asgardian. I think you’re right, but having Cap as a more conservative figure makes sense considering that Jan and Hank really come across as progressive, Thor is an anarchist and Tony is something of a libertarian. An old-school conservative brings a certain balance to the political spectrum of the team. I also have the feeling that Millar was willfully trying to counter his own political views. I may be wrong about that, but considering how later issues show the fascistic tendencies of SHIELD, it’s good to have a right-wing character who is still a moral reference.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 24, 2019 16:26:06 GMT -5
The Ultimates Volume 1 Story by Mark Millar Art by Bryan Hitch and Andrew Currie, colours by Paul Mounts Chapter five : Hulk does ManhattanMarvel comics’ Hulk has mostly been described as a misunderstood creature.From time to time writers would emphasize the danger he paused to society, but that aspect of what remains a comic-book hero never stuck for very long. I believe that it was even explained at some point (decades after I stopped reading Greenskin’s book) that Banner subconsciously prevented the Hulk from causing someone else's death, and that the several instances of Hulk rampaging through a city had resulted in lots of physical damage but not in massive death tolls. Well, that’s not the case here. The Ultimate Hulk is a monster. A hostile, selfish, horny, violent and murderous creature. One with the strength to topple buildings. In the Jeckyll and Hyde relation between Banner and Hulk, this version of Hyde is pushed to eleven. But then isn’t that a recurring theme in the Ultimates? Many aspects of this or that character are pushed to their limit, as in Jan's and Hank's marital problem involve life-threatening abuse, Tony drinks all the time, Pietro and Wanda really sound like a pair of incestuous siblings, etc. As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the script doesn’t read as if we’re keeping things in reserve for later, with a property meant to last for decades… this is like a movie, where everything can be brought to an end after two hours (or three, judging from recent Avengers movies). I must say, it makes for more kinetic storytelling! Hulk has been loose for ten minutes but has already ravaged a New York neighbourhood; the death toll revealed later will mention 300 plus deaths. The Ultimates take charge, and I love the way Giant-Man is carried by a chopper. Why didn’t he wait to get there in his normal size and then grow? My guess is that unless he wants to fight the Hulk naked, his costume (which doesn’t grow with him) would have had to be delivered anyway, and he still would have had to put it on on front of everyone… which is kind of embarrassing, and also dangerous if the Hulk decides to attack him while he’s struggling with his pants. At this point of the series, it also isn’t clear whether Hank can now change size at will; at the time, I thought he required all the gizmos from the lab to grow to 60 feet. (I wish that had remained the case, too... that sounds more sciency than magical). There was a method to Banner’s madness: yes, he took his own serum to become the Hulk because he wanted to matter again, but his plan involved more than becoming big and respected; he also wanted to provide the Ultimates with a threat to fight, and left them instructions and an adamantium-tipped needle with which to inject him with an anti-Hulk serum. That way, they get to be heroes in the public's eye, and he would have been useful. The crisis is such that SHIELD has asked Thor for help, despite his earlier rejection of their offer of employment; only he asks that the U.S. government double its international aid budget before lifting a finger. Hulk is climbing the building where Betty was having dinner with Freddie Prinze Jr., and Betty wonders how he could have found them (she didn’t mention it during their earlier phone call). Perhaps Banner knows her favourite places and just took a chance. As he approaches, he makes lewd and pretty scary remarks… This Hulk is more than the expression of Banner’s rage, he truly embodies all that can be evil in him! (Or is it all fake locker-room talk from a frightened little boy really trying to sound bad? Later protestations from the Hulk will suggest that it's also a possibility). The monster is temporarily stopped by Giant-Man, who pins him to the wall. This scene, drawn with a neat perspective giving it a lot of realism, reminds me of that “WOW!” moment in Captain America : Civil War when we saw Scott Lang grow to giant size. There is a lot of visually stunning material in those superhero comics, even if we readers have grown so used to them that we hardly notice anymore. The helicarrier in the first Avengers movie is a good example: while the ship itself hadn’t done anything for me in the books for many years, it looked awesome on the big screen. Same with such a simple thing as a Giant-Man. Hank may be tall, but Hulk is way, way stronger… and Giant-Man is brought low. I find the way Hulk goes for the inside of his opponent's mouth particularly scary, for some reason: Hank seems to be as defenceless as we are in the hands of an evil dentist with his drill!!! The threats made by Hulk are particularly graphic, too. He clearly expresses his hatred for Pym because of the way he treated Banner, and claims that he will use his head for a toilet bowl. Help, somebody? It is Tony who saves Hank’s bacon by flying the Hulk away and slamming him into Grand Central Station (and wasn’t that featured in the first Avengers movie too?) The battle continues, and in a somewhat embarrassing scene (no, make that an embarrassing scene, period), Jan exposes her breasts to grab the Hulk’s attention and get him to follow her. That it works is neither here nor there; if the Hulk is feeble-minded enough to be totally distracted by a pretty woman (as he clearly is, if we judge by his idiotic look), then it should be simple enough to calm him down with a Playboy magazine. Plus, I seriously doubt that had the super-villain been the Savage She-Hulk, Cap would have dropped his trousers to get her attention. But anyway… adolescent sex jokes are part and parcel of most action movies too, so… Jan leads the Hulk to a spot where Captain America can drop a tank on his head. The creature wrecks the vehicle, but then gets clobbered by its driver… and yes, clearly, this Captain America is way stronger than his MU counterpart! In hindsight, considering that both Cap and Hulk came from similarly-conceived serums, perhaps this shouldn't be as surprising as it is to us long-time fans. It's just that Cap is clearly unable to topple buildings, so he shouldn't be able to clean the Hulk's clock like that, even fighting dirty. Before Steve can inject the Hulk with the antiserum, however, the monster shakes off his daze and starts pummeling the sentinel of liberty. The needle gets broken too, which isn’t supposed to happen to adamantium (unless it’s not the same in the Ultimate universe). Time for a deus ex machina, and that’s precisely when we introduce the team’s resident god! Kaboom!!!Kaboom and CLUNK!!! (That’s an awesome shot of Mjolnir hitting something). Props to Paul Mounts whose colour palette is just perfect for this scene. (SHIELD technicians mention that GWB has just doubled the foreign aid budget… Now *that’s* what I call efficient lobbying!!!) The fight goes on, and a Freddie Prinze Jr. (whose face we still haven’t seen) has a pretty brave word balloon as he and Betty are being evacuated. One almost wonders if the character wasn’t used without permission, but in such a positive light (and without his likeness being used) that the chances of people objecting were small. Does anyone know? In any case, the actor doesn’t hold any grudge today. Or does he???Betty and Prinze are airlifted with the Hulk in pursuit; one of the option is for the chopper to head out to sea if a nuclear option becomes the last one left on the table. Luckily, as the Hulk reaches the helicopter, Janet manages to enter his ear canal and zaps his brain from inside his skull; this causes the monster to fall back to Earth and revert to Banner. Then Cap vents a little by kicking Banner in the face. I don’t think that scene went well with all readers back then; I suppose it depends on one’s views on the proper way to treat criminals (in make-believe universes where super-heroes beat people up all the time, that is). Perhaps this book’s realism made this scene more than just an opportunity for a one-liner and for super-heroicky catharsis. ——— All action, and even a bit of destruction porn worthy of a Michael Bay film, but even in the midst of the flying debris we are planting seeds that will give poisoned fruit in the near future. We also get to understand how much Betty means to Banner, despite all the fake bravado of the Hulk. A few more notes : - Jan has two Ph.D.s, but we don’t know in what disciplines. - Hulk drank a truck-full of beer. That’s a funny throwaway line, but it also shows how Hulk is really Banner doing all the things he wouldn’t normally. (We’ll learn in a few issues that Banner is a vegetarian, but the Hulk eats people on occasion). - Captain America makes a point of thanking "the little guys” doing their job well (here, SHIELD technicians) whenever he can, but he still kicks a prisoner in the face. He's like those fathers of old, well-meaning and all, who'd take the strap to their disobedient kids because that's all they had ever known as far as education approaches went.
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Post by rberman on Jun 24, 2019 18:35:36 GMT -5
Quite a brutal issue. Banner's stunt gets many people killed. I forgot to mention that issue #3 had a "Giant-Man caught in mid-stride" scene which seemed borrowed from Alex Ross in Marvels.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 24, 2019 23:43:43 GMT -5
Issue #3: Not much to add here. I'm puzzled by Steve's new costume. It isn't a straight reproduction of his WWII costume. It has a cowl instead of a helmet and chin strap. It has a round shield instead of, um, the other kind. So why does it have a canteen? Is he going camping? Superheroes need to stay hydrated. Really, though, i think Cap would find a Camelback more practical. Bigger question is what does he have in the other pouches? He isn't using a sidearm, so they aren't ammo pouches. I would assume at least one would be a survival kit; maybe the rest have the vitamin pills, pep pills, nylons, chocolate bars, Russian rubles and all of that other stuff that Major Kong listed off. I'm sure Cap is up for a good time in Vegas, just like everyone else. The triangular shield is sometimes called a Templar shield, after the Knights Templar. The round one is a Buckler.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 25, 2019 0:09:47 GMT -5
The Ultimates Volume 1 Story by Mark Millar Art by Bryan Hitch and Andrew Currie, colours by Paul Mounts Chapter five : Hulk does ManhattanMarvel comics’ Hulk has mostly been described as a misunderstood creature.From time to time writers would emphasize the danger he paused to society, but that aspect of what remains a comic-book hero never stuck for very long. I believe that it was even explained at some point (decades after I stopped reading Greenskin’s book) that Banner subconsciously prevented the Hulk from causing someone else's death, and that the several instances of Hulk rampaging through a city had resulted in lots of physical damage but not in massive death tolls. Well, that’s not the case here. The Ultimate Hulk is a monster. A hostile, selfish, horny, violent and murderous creature. One with the strength to topple buildings. In the Jeckyll and Hyde relation between Banner and Hulk, this version of Hyde is pushed to eleven. But then isn’t that a recurring theme in the Ultimates? Many aspects of this or that character are pushed to their limit, as in Jan's and Hank's marital problem involve life-threatening abuse, Tony drinks all the time, Pietro and Wanda really sound like a pair of incestuous siblings, etc. As mentioned at the beginning of this thread, the script doesn’t read as if we’re keeping things in reserve for later, with a property meant to last for decades… this is like a movie, where everything can be brought to an end after two hours (or three, judging from recent Avengers movies). I must say, it makes for more kinetic storytelling! Hulk has been loose for ten minutes but has already ravaged a New York neighbourhood; the death toll revealed later will mention 800 plus deaths. The Ultimates take charge, and I love the way Giant-Man is carried by a chopper. Why didn’t he wait to get there in his normal size and then grow? My guess is that unless he wants to fight the Hulk naked, his costume (which doesn’t grow with him) would have had to be delivered anyway, and he still would have had to put it on on front of everyone… which is kind of embarrassing, and also dangerous if the Hulk decides to attack him while he’s struggling with his pants. At this point of the series, it also isn’t clear whether Hank can now change size at will; at the time, I thought he required all the gizmos from the lab to grow to 60 feet. (I wish that had remained the case, too... that sounds more sciency than magical). There was a method to Banner’s madness: yes, he took his own serum to become the Hulk because he wanted to matter again, but his plan involved more than becoming big and respected; he also wanted to provide the Ultimates with a threat to fight, and left them instructions and an adamantium-tipped needle with which to inject him with an anti-Hulk serum. That way, they get to be heroes in the public's eye, and he would have been useful. The crisis is such that SHIELD has asked Thor for help, despite his earlier rejection of their offer of employment; only he asks that the U.S. government double its international aid budget before lifting a finger. Hulk is climbing the building where Betty was having dinner with Freddie Prinze Jr., and Betty wonders how he could have found them (she didn’t mention it during their earlier phone call). Perhaps Banner knows her favourite places and just took a chance. As he approaches, he makes lewd and pretty scary remarks… This Hulk is more than the expression of Banner’s rage, he truly embodies all that can be evil in him! (Or is it all fake locker-room talk from a frightened little boy really trying to sound bad? Later protestations from the Hulk will suggest that it's also a possibility). The monster is temporarily stopped by Giant-Man, who pins him to the wall. This scene, drawn with a neat perspective giving it a lot of realism, reminds me of that “WOW!” moment in Captain America : Civil War when we saw Scott Lang grow to giant size. There is a lot of visually stunning material in those superhero comics, even if we readers have grown so used to them that we hardly notice anymore. The helicarrier in the first Avengers movie is a good example: while the ship itself hadn’t done anything for me in the books for many years, it looked awesome on the big screen. Same with such a simple thing as a Giant-Man. Hank may be tall, but Hulk is way, way stronger… and Giant-Man is brought low. I find the way Hulk goes for the inside of his opponent's mouth particularly scary, for some reason: Hank seems to be as defenceless as we are in the hands of an evil dentist with his drill!!! The threats made by Hulk are particularly graphic, too. He clearly expresses his hatred for Pym because of the way he treated Banner, and claims that he will use his head for a toilet bowl. Help, somebody? It is Tony who saves Hank’s bacon by flying the Hulk away and slamming him into Grand Central Station (and wasn’t that featured in the first Avengers movie too?) The battle continues, and in a somewhat embarrassing scene (no, make that an embarrassing scene, period), Jan exposes her breasts to grab the Hulk’s attention and get him to follow her. That it works is neither here nor there; if the Hulk is feeble-minded enough to be totally distracted by a pretty woman (as he clearly is, if we judge by his idiotic look), then it should be simple enough to calm him down with a Playboy magazine. Plus, I seriously doubt that had the super-villain been the Savage She-Hulk, Cap would have dropped his trousers to get her attention. But anyway… adolescent sex jokes are part and parcel of most action movies too, so… Jan leads the Hulk to a spot where Captain America can drop a tank on his head. The creature wrecks the vehicle, but then gets clobbered by its driver… and yes, clearly, this Captain America is way stronger than his MU counterpart! In hindsight, considering that both Cap and Hulk came from similarly-conceived serums, perhaps this shouldn't be as surprising as it is to us long-time fans. It's just that Cap is clearly unable to topple buildings, so he shouldn't be able to clean the Hulk's clock like that, even fighting dirty. Before Steve can inject the Hulk with the antiserum, however, the monster shakes off his daze and starts pummeling the sentinel of liberty. The needle gets broken too, which isn’t supposed to happen to adamantium (unless it’s not the same in the Ultimate universe). Time for a deus ex machina, and that’s precisely when we introduce the team’s resident god! Kaboom!!!Kaboom and CLUNK!!! (That’s an awesome shot of Mjolnir hitting something). Props to Paul Mounts whose colour palette is just perfect for this scene. (SHIELD technicians mention that GWB has just doubled the foreign aid budget… Now *that’s* what I call efficient lobbying!!!) The fight goes on, and a Freddie Prinze Jr. (whose face we still haven’t seen) has a pretty brave word balloon as he and Betty are being evacuated. One almost wonders if the character wasn’t used without permission, but in such a positive light (and without his likeness being used) that the chances of people objecting were small. Does anyone know? In any case, the actor doesn’t hold any grudge today. Or does he???Betty and Prinze are airlifted with the Hulk in pursuit; one of the option is for the chopper to head out to sea if a nuclear option becomes the last one left on the table. Luckily, as the Hulk reaches the helicopter, Janet manages to enter his ear canal and zaps his brain from inside his skull; this causes the monster to fall back to Earth and revert to Banner. Then Cap vents a little by kicking Banner in the face. I don’t think that scene went well with all readers back then; I suppose it depends on one’s views on the proper way to treat criminals (in make-believe universes where super-heroes beat people up all the time, that is). Perhaps this book’s realism made this scene more than just an opportunity for a one-liner and for super-heroicky catharsis. ——— All action, and even a bit of destruction porn worthy of a Michael Bay film, but even in the midst of the flying debris we are planting seeds that will give poisoned fruit in the near future. We also get to understand how much Betty means to Banner, despite all the fake bravado of the Hulk. A few more notes : - Jan has two Ph.D.s, but we don’t know in what disciplines. - Hulk drank a truck-full of beer. That’s a funny throwaway line, but it also shows how Hulk is really Banner doing all the things he wouldn’t normally. (We’ll learn in a few issues that Banner is a vegetarian, but the Hulk eats people on occasion). - Captain America makes a point of thanking "the little guys” doing their job well (here, SHIELD technicians) whenever he can, but he still kicks a prisoner in the face. He's like those fathers of old, well-meaning and all, who'd take the strap to their disobedient kids because that's all they had ever known as far as education approaches went. Here's my issue with Cap, which is writ large in Ultimates; but spilled over into the regular comics: Cap was the epitome of a finesse fighter, from Simon & Kirby on up. He used skill, speed, technique, and agility to take out his opponents. He rarely resorted to brute strength. That's what made him stand out, to me. Here was a guy who used strategy and went after vulnerable points, used leverage, etc. It seems like writers and artists, from the 90s onward just steroided Cap up (both in the depiction of his abilities and his physical appearance) into a bruiser, rather than a fighter. Ultimates does employ a bit of strategy from Cap; but way more punching in the face fighting than you would expect of a Cap. Thankfully, the movies seemed to understand that a finesse Cap looks way cooler on screen. Compare to this Kirby sequence, from Tales of Suspense... Now, Kirby uses Cap's strength, which is at the height of human ability; but, he uses skill just as much, to make his opponents wear themselves down and maneuver into a position where he can quickly take them out. In all aspects, Cap is a soldier and soldiers learn technique and strategy in fighting. The good ones rarely go for a full frontal assault, if sneaky can accomplish the job. I think some of it is a generational thing. Kirby's generation knew a bit about fighting (Kirby on the streets and the battlefield), especially the veterans of the war, while later generations rarely even got into playground scuffles. It seems like a lot of them have been conditioned to think that brute strength and force will win out, rather than speed, skill and precision. The athletes of today are packed with steroids, whereas those of Kirby's age had more skill and experience on their side, than science.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 25, 2019 0:24:35 GMT -5
I meant to comment on this one earlier; when Cap wakes up, he thinks Fury is a fake, because he knows the highest ranking African-American in the US Army and he isn't a general. Millar must not of done any research, at all, or we will have to pass it off as wonky Marvel alternate history. The highest ranking African-American in the US Army, in WW2, was Benjamin O. Davis, who was promoted to the rank of Brigadier General, in 1940, before the US entry into WW2. His son, Benjamin O. Davis Jr commanded the 332nd Fighter Group, aka The Tuskegee Airmen (as a colonel), and was later promoted to Brigadier General, in 1954 (temporarily, but it was made permanent in 1960). He was ultimately promoted to 4-star General, in 1998, while retired.
I remember reading that issue, the day I picked it up from my LCS and growling out loud, "Gen Benjamin O Davis! Read a book, Millar!"
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 25, 2019 0:31:05 GMT -5
ps I did like how Millar and Hytch handled Thor, both with the social blackmail and the lighting effects when he uses his powers. They made good use of computer coloring effects and really helped to set Thor on a higher plane than the rest, in terms of power.
The helicopter delivery of Hank is pretty cool, though I did wonder what his weight was, at that height. Might have need a few helos.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 25, 2019 5:02:48 GMT -5
ps I did like how Millar and Hytch handled Thor, both with the social blackmail and the lighting effects when he uses his powers. They made good use of computer coloring effects and really helped to set Thor on a higher plane than the rest, in terms of power. The helicopter delivery of Hank is pretty cool, though I did wonder what his weight was, at that height. Might have need a few helos. A back of the envelope calculation, assuming that Hank is 6 feet tall and weighs 200 pounds, would have his weight increase cubically while his height increases linearly, which would put him at about 90 metric tons when he’s 60 feet tall. That’s heavier than a humpback whale... and I seriously doubt that normally proportioned human bones (even giant ones) could stand that kind of weight! They’d break like twigs! As for a helicopter, I really do not know. Of course, the matter of mass with the Pyms has always been a little vague in the comics... Maybe Giant-Man’s body isn’t as dense as a real 60 foot human body would be (if a 60 foot human body was at all possible).
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Post by rberman on Jun 25, 2019 8:43:44 GMT -5
The helicopter delivery of Hank is pretty cool, though I did wonder what his weight was, at that height. Might have need a few helos. A back of the envelope calculation, assuming that Hank is 6 feet tall and weighs 200 pounds, would have his weight increase cubically while his height increases linearly, which would put him at about 90 metric tons when he’s 60 feet tall. That’s heavier than a humpback whale... and I seriously doubt that normally proportioned human bones (even giant ones) could stand that kind of weight! They’d break like twigs! As for a helicopter, I really do not know. Of course, the matter of mass with the Pyms has always been a little vague in the comics... Maybe Giant-Man’s body isn’t as dense as a real 60 foot human body would be (if a 60 foot human body was at all possible). If Giant-Man has decreased density, that causes other problems when he attempts to engage the dense and strong Hulk. Basically, the structure of a human body works very well in the 4-6 foot range and much less well the further you try to scale it up or down from there. James Kakalios has a fun physics primer entitled, "The Physics of Superheroes" which teaches basic mechanics and electromagnetic principles through chapters like, "Can Ant-Man punch his way out of a paper bag?"
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