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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 24, 2019 1:00:20 GMT -5
I guess I'm positing this thread as "List your Favorite and Least Favorite Gaiman Things" as instructions for you guys. Do that, if you feel like it.
As for me
I've been feeling Neil Gaiman lately, and he's really found his media niche in popular culture in the last few years. So I wanted to briefly talk about... well... everything Neil Gaiman ever wrote. (I haven't read everything but I am close) There's just a bunch I'd like to hear people's thoughts on.
Personal notes: I have an amazingly terrible memory for things I've read, and I'm not sure I've shown the extent of it on these boards before. Sorry in advance if I completely forget the plot of things that changed your life.
American Gods - Bought this new in hardcover, huge Sandman fan that I am. Didn't like it.
Read the "Author's Preferred Text" Edition a couple years ago. Loved it, could not put it down, jaw dropping. Helped me crystallize my thinking about America-as-a-concept (or as a myth) Changed the way I think about God (in the broadest sense.) I'm still not sure if this is because the book changed (It did!) or it I changed.
I guess there's a TV show? Probably not gonna watch it, I can't imagine it adds anything. And it will be less cool than the pictures in my head.
Anansi Boys - Re-read this recently. American Gods as a British comedy? Yeah, sure, what the hell. Aims for a lot less "epic" but pd great on it's own terms.
Black Orchid: God I love Dave McKean and Cages is a GD masterpiece but this seemed a little kiudgy and too-impenetrable-for-it's-own-good in a young dude trying to be profound kind of way. I don't really remember much about it. (A fun game would be "drink every time I say some variation of I Don't Remember.") Very Swamp Thing-y?
Coraline: I read it at the tender young age of 28. Scared the shit out of me. Great, great, great, need to re-read.
Saw a bit of the movie, quite good.
The Eternals: Liked it a lot. I find the contrast between Kirby GRAND EPIC metaphor Mythologizing and Gaiman's "Well, Gods are just blokes, y'know" small-scale mythologizing fascinating. John Romita Jr. just destroyed on this book, got the small human bits and the huge Kirby bits with equal aplomb.
Good Omens: I dunno. I'm a huge Discworld fan but I might JUST be a huge Discworld fan and not a Terry Pratchett fan? I read this a couple times as a teenager. I remember some amusing bits and that it felt disjointed. Near the bottom of the Terry Pratchett pile, lower-middle-ish Gaiman.
Miracleman: One of my least favorite things Alan Moore ever wrote - too self serious, too ripped-out-intestine-y, I have a problem with the way British anthology comic are paced sometimes which is 100% totally on me and not them - but here we are.
Liked Gaiman's follow-up better, it felt worse Sandman to me. In other words pretty good. (Although I remember everything that happened in Moore's Miracleman and forgot most everything from Gaiman's. So go figure.)
NeverWhere: This was originally a script for a radio play, right? *checks* Nope, a BBC serial. This had a subway in it! The bad guy was creepy! (This is literally all I remember.)
Norse Mythology: Short, breezy, freaking great. I did not know I needed straight retellings of Norse Myths written by Neil Gaiman in my life but I soooo did.
Sandman - So the best long form factory system comic ever produced. I'm not sure what's second, but there is a pretty wide gulf twixt # 1 and # 2. Favorite arcs: Game of You, Kindly Ones. I recently re-read the first three volumes and I liked Preludes and Nocturnes a lot more than I remembered and Doll's House a little less.
The Sandman Companion: Technically by Hy Bender but there's so much Neil Gaiman interview that I'm counting it. . Indispensably great.
View From the Cheap Seats: Read about half of it in two tries. Just hard to get through.
More later...
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jun 24, 2019 5:45:04 GMT -5
So, does the "author's preferred text" of American Gods address the screamingly-obvious gaping hole I found in the original, i.e., the lack of any of the many versions of Jesus worshiped in America? (Or, for that matter, the short-shrift given to Native American deities? I found the explanation given in the book quite unsatisfying...).
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 5:45:55 GMT -5
I'll mention Sandman as it's fresh in the memory.
I feel the story has lost none of its power years later. True, anything can look dated art-wise, but the themes explored in those early issues are hauntingly beautiful, and I also feel it's a good book to give to someone who may not have read a comic or graphic novel. My book club is actually reading it next month!
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Post by Duragizer on Jun 24, 2019 5:53:05 GMT -5
My familiarity with Gaiman's work's woefully lacking; I've only read Marvel 1602 and Coraline. I didn't care much for Coraline as prose, but I loved the graphic novel adaptation.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 24, 2019 7:58:57 GMT -5
So, does the "author's preferred text" of American Gods address the screamingly-obvious gaping hole I found in the original, i.e., the lack of any of the many versions of Jesus worshiped in America? (Or, for that matter, the short-shrift given to Native American deities? I found the explanation given in the book quite unsatisfying...). I think so? *Google* Yeah, he does. This isn't something I'd see as a a plot hole or particularly care about - It's a book about viewing America from a non-native perspective, and Jesus has been near-completely naturalized at this point - but he does show up and it was a good scene. Native Gods are around, too, although not the focus of the narrative. Weirdly, the UK based Anansi Boys feels a little more rooted in Native Mythology, or at least I read the African "Spider" trickster God as a composite-trickster with a strong coyote-ish strain in his DNA. |
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Jun 24, 2019 8:04:59 GMT -5
At least in American popular consciousness, which is a major problem for both American Christianity and America in general. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 8:16:27 GMT -5
just to note, the "American Gods" TV show, is on pay cable network (STARZ) and not only has an amazing cast, but Gaiman is involved himself.
the first season is brilliant.
the 2nd is not bad, but not as good as the 1st (there was some major behind the scenes stuff that went on and the Showrunners left, leading to some of the 2ndary cast leaving too. . . but the KEY actors stayed, and the 2nd season was way better than I was expecting).
it got renewed for a 3rd.. but thus far there are only, I think, 16 episodes? (2 seasons of 8 episodes each). . .
they don't *exactly* follow the book, but in the same neighborhood.
absolutely worth it - just to see Kristen Chenoweth as Easter, and Gillian Anderson as Media.
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Post by MWGallaher on Jun 24, 2019 8:41:15 GMT -5
I thought Marvel 1602 was the worst of his work that I've read. From the start, it looked like a shameless rip-off of DC's Elseworld's premise, and of course it was. But where DC was (usually) relatively judicious in doling out analogs of popular characters in any given Elseworlds, Gaiman was constantly tossing twee doppelgangers of every character he could think of, making the project seem like a game of "identify the character" rather than an engrossing story. And the blatant hints were sometimes embarrassingly poorly thought out. Here's one that really stuck with me, our Black Widow 1602 is knitting during a carriage ride:  It bugs me when people don't think about whether cutesy things like this are going to be visually effective. The first thing that hit me on seeing that panel was "No. That's not going to work. You can't 'knit' that pattern. It would just fall right apart unless it was knotted at every intersection. And what point would there be to knitting such a useless piece of work, anyway? None, unless you were doing it to convey 'Hey, audience, I'm the Black Widow, who as you all know is obsessed with spiders and webs, right?'" It seemed like every page was full of clever intentions that just annoyed me: "Let's give the characters 17th century sounding names! Hm, we've got Cyclops here in a major role, what would his name be back then? How about Scotius?" Fine and dandy, except for the reader who has to figure out how you intended that to be pronounced, when every pronunciation sounds wrong: "SCOTT-ee-us? SKOTE-ee-us? Skoe-TIE-Us? Surely it can't be SKOE-shuss?" |
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Post by badwolf on Jun 24, 2019 8:43:36 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure there was an Anansi deity in American Gods. Mr. Nancy, or something like that? It's been a little while.
There have been short stories I didn't care for, but I can't remember specifically what they were. I remember being underwhelmed by the collections Trigger Warning and Fragile Things, though there was good stuff in them too.
I remember being disappointed with Good Omens, because I was expecting something like Douglas Adams, which might have been unfair of me. My book club has it as this month's read, but I couldn't bring myself to re-read it. I keep my copy mainly because Neil Gaiman signed it for me years ago.
Stardust didn't do it for me although the art was wonderful.
As far as comics, The Eternals fell a bit flat, felt more like a prelude to something than a complete story, though it's probably where JRJR put in his best work. 1602 was very interesting but lost it at the end for me.
Favorites... Sandman & related stuff. Too many short stories to mention, but "Murder Mysteries" is one I've read a few times. P. Craig Russell did a great adaptation of that one too. Mr. Punch. Neverwhere. The Ocean at the End of the Lane.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2019 8:53:59 GMT -5
I'm pretty sure there was an Anansi deity in American Gods. Mr. Nancy, or something like that? It's been a little while. yep. . played brilliantly by Orlando Jones in the TV version:  |
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Post by berkley on Jun 25, 2019 1:50:22 GMT -5
I thought Marvel 1602 was the worst of his work that I've read. From the start, it looked like a shameless rip-off of DC's Elseworld's premise, and of course it was. But where DC was (usually) relatively judicious in doling out analogs of popular characters in any given Elseworlds, Gaiman was constantly tossing twee doppelgangers of every character he could think of, making the project seem like a game of "identify the character" rather than an engrossing story. And the blatant hints were sometimes embarrassingly poorly thought out. Here's one that really stuck with me, our Black Widow 1602 is knitting during a carriage ride: It bugs me when people don't think about whether cutesy things like this are going to be visually effective. The first thing that hit me on seeing that panel was "No. That's not going to work. You can't 'knit' that pattern. It would just fall right apart unless it was knotted at every intersection. And what point would there be to knitting such a useless piece of work, anyway? None, unless you were doing it to convey 'Hey, audience, I'm the Black Widow, who as you all know is obsessed with spiders and webs, right?'" It seemed like every page was full of clever intentions that just annoyed me: "Let's give the characters 17th century sounding names! Hm, we've got Cyclops here in a major role, what would his name be back then? How about Scotius?" Fine and dandy, except for the reader who has to figure out how you intended that to be pronounced, when every pronunciation sounds wrong: "SCOTT-ee-us? SKOTE-ee-us? Skoe-TIE-Us? Surely it can't be SKOE-shuss?"
I had very much the same reaction to 1602 in general - and unfortunately this was the first Gaiman series I ever tried to follow as it came out, so it gave me, probably unfairly, a bad impression his work in general.
Then I made the mistake of reading his Eternals miniseries. I should have known better, because there were hints in the interviews promoting the project that he didn't really think very highly of the original series, that the idea of another reinvention of it didn't come from him but from Marvel management, that his main interest was the MU, etc, etc. All this being the case, his Eternals book was never likely to suit the tastes of a reader like me, who does like the original, doesn't think it fits in the MU, etc.
I still want to try some of his independent work, though, and I'll try my best to look at it with an open mind, and overcome the bad impression left by 1602 and The Eternals.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 25, 2019 2:30:12 GMT -5
Not a fan of any of his Marvel work; didn't care for Eternals and definitely didn't care for 1602. To me, that is his worst comic stuff.
Black Orchid has interesting moments; but, never really comes together. Never thought it was as interesting as the original Adventure Comics stories. Seemed more of an experiment, without a commitment.
I'm a big fan of Miracleman; but, feel that Moore's stuff is far more interesting. Gaiman gets to play in things after Moore has had his fun, which means he gets to explore a utopia and how people live within it, willingly or unwillingly. Golden Age is fine; but disjointed. Love the spy issue and the Gargunza issue; the rest are fairly mixed. The Silver Age is where he got interesting, though came to an abrupt halt (which still hasn't been finished, despite all of the noise from Marvel. How long ago did they say it would be finished?)
Sandman is the pinnacle of his comics work, though I would say that it has its peaks and valleys. My cat, Derek, is quite fond of "A Dream of Cats." I keep one eye open around him. Seasons of Mist is my favorite arc.
In terms of his novels, American Gods is the top, for me, though I am quite fond of Stardust. The movie doesn't begin to capture it. It is also his funniest work. Neverwhere is more interesting as a novel; but, I thought the serial was better than credited (apart from budget). It does feature future Doctor Who, Peter Capaldi, as the Angel Islington. Really good cast, really low budget. Ends up looking like Doctor Who, minus Sylvester McCoy. Technically, there are several versions of it: the BBC serial, the British novel, the American novel (which had changes, since Americans wouldn't be familiar with the London Underground or other parts of the city) and the comic book adaptation. The very memorable Mr Coup, Hywel Bennett, played Ricki Tarr, in the original Tinker, Tailor, Soldier Spy, with Alec Guinness.
Good Omens is over 2/3 Pratchett, by both writers' admission (Gaiman was hampered by work on Sandman). I think it is wickedly funny; but, not as good as large chunks of Pratchett's own work. The best bits definitely read like Pratchett, though you can spot Gaiman in some of the details (Crowley's tape deck, where every cassette turns into Bohemian Rhapsody, sounds very Gaiman, to me).
As for the shorter works, his grail story is cute; but, his Murder Mystery, set in Heaven, is one of his best (I do like his one pager, with a man being held prisoner by elves, forced to make toys).
His children's books are interesting and creepy (Mr Punch, Wolves in the Walls, Coraline).
Ultimately, I think both Pratchett and Gaiman's long time friend and collaborator on a guide to The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Kim Newman, are better writers; certainly prose writers. I think Gaiman is a bit more lyrical, which plays better to the literary crowd; but, Pratchett and Newman are better storytellers and create more memorable characters. Gaiman's best were in Sandman.
I have a personal connection to Gaiman's work. A friend an co-worker, at B&N was a huge fan and I was a big Sandman fan, so we always talked Gaiman. Then, my friend was diagnosed with renal cancer and the prognosis was bad. He passed away from it within a year. We had a memorial service for him, in a park, and the program had Gaiman quotes, including probably his most profound piece of dialogue.....
"You got what everyone gets; you got a lifetime." A simple little phrase; but, it helps you when you are grieving for a loved one. Long or short, they had a lifetime; they were here. They mattered. For that and that alone, he ranks high in my book.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 25, 2019 3:00:48 GMT -5
While best known as a novelist or a comic writer, I think Gaiman's strength is as a short story writer (and some of my favorite Sandman issues were the done in ones).
People have mentioned Murder Mysteries and the Grail already, but I also love stories like Troll Bridge; Shoggoth's Old Peculiar; Only the End of the World Again; One Life Furnished in Early Moorcock; Snow, Glass, Apples; A Study in Emerald; The Faery Reel; etc.
I also really like The View form the Cheap Seats, a non-fiction piece he did, and his children's books The Day I Swapped my Dad for Two Goldfish, Instructions, The Wolves in the Walls and particularly Odd and the Frost Giants.
Another interesting project was Interworld, which he co-wrote with Michael Reeves.
I agree with cody that his Marvel work is among the weakest of his oeuvre, and I did not care for his Whatever Happened to the Caped Crusader either.
Among his comic work, Sandman gets its own category, but of the rest, my favorites include The Books of Magic, Alice Cooper: The Last Temptation, and the Spirit story he did for The Spirit New Adventures #2.
With Sandman, A Midsummer Night's Dream, Ramadan, Dream of a Thousand Cats, and A Season of Mists are among my favorites, but there are so many others I like too.
I like most of his novels as well, with American Gods my favorite.
But I think what I like most about Gaiman, is his voice, when he is telling stories. I have on VHS a copy of the evening with Gaiman show he did as a CBLDF fundraiser, where is is on stage just telling a number of stories and I used to just sit and watch that time and again and be completely engrossed and absorbed into his storytelling, enchanted and enraptured. I don't usually go for audiobooks either, but I will pick up any of them where Neil is reading his own stuff, the last of which I listened to was Norse Mythology.
Like any writer, Neil has his quirks and tics, and his hits and misses. With rare exceptions though (like 1602 and Eternals or Caped Crusader), I am usually at least pleasantly diverted for a time even by his misses, and when he hits for me, it is something that resonates and and creates ripples in my life for an extended period.
-M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 25, 2019 14:56:37 GMT -5
I'm a big fan of Mr. Gaiman.
Sandman: I consider this to be the pinnacle of long-form American comics. I can read it every few years and find something new every time. The perfect synthesis of comics and literature.
American Gods: And his magnum opus of prose. This is really very much the forseeable result of Gaiman moving to a novel from Sandman. One of my favorite novels of all time. The author's preferred text is definitely better.
Anansi Boys: I was disappointed by this the first time I read it. I liked it better the second time. The third time I finally got it. Since it's tied to American Gods I was expecting American Gods. What I got was a spider story. I got a fable. Once I figured that out I was gold.
The Ocean At the End of the Lane: I love this book almost as much as American Gods. This, to me, is Gaiman channeling Bradbury. This is not a young adult book...and I think some people criticize it because they think it's supposed to be Coraline or The Graveyard Book and it's not. This is a nostalgic look back at the bad and the good of childhood. This is a lovely look at being a child and the things we don't remember as we age. But, for a while, Gaiman reminds us of the bumps in the night. And why, just maybe, they were the important part of the day.
The Graveyard Book, Coraline, Odd and the Frost Giant: I read all of these with my boys and they thoroughly enjoyed them. So did I.
Neverwhere, Stardust: It's been a long time since I've read either of these. I should probably fix that.
Good Omens: I love this book. And I think the adaptation was just peachy.
Short Stories: I'm a huge fan of Gaiman's short works. Every collection is a delight.
I really liked The Books of Magic. It's been so long since I've read most of his other comic work that it's probably not fair for me to talk about it.
Norse Mythology: Was a hoot. It's like sitting around the campfire telling stories, legends and tall tales.
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Post by mrbrklyn on Jun 25, 2019 15:55:52 GMT -5
I'm affraid this latest Sandman's universe might tarnish the whole franchise. |
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