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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 19, 2020 10:24:20 GMT -5
I don’t read newsletters now, either. I cancelled the WRESTLING OBSERVER subscription recently. And tried PRO WRESTLING TORCH. I think I need to get back to enjoying (or not enjoying) wrestling on its own terms. Yes, part of the decision was financial as I am thinking about luxuries to cancel during this global health emergency. But do I really need to listen to the opinions of newsletter writers? Plus, there seems to be a negative spin of about 95% on everything. There’s nothing wrong with calling out events or matches you think are bad, but the constant negativity is depressing. That doesn’t mean I’ve put on rose-tinted glasses. But there can be good things to find. I don’t think honesty is bad - we can all agree some PPVs are bad - but I wish the newsletter writers could try and be more supportive/positive while not necessarily fawning over everything. There has to be a balance. I’m not asking for a newsletter writer to claim every match/PPV is astounding, but I don’t want one who picks apart everything, including things that have not yet taken place. A bit of positivity wouldn’t go amiss. That was always a problem with the Wrestling Observer; match ratings and the perception of individual performances were just Dave's opinion. The historical pieces were well researched and often quite revealing; but, personal biases could slip in. His obituary of Art Barr suggested that he had been on the cusp of national superstardom, after When World's Collide. However, he was still working in Mexico because of his past and would WCW ever hire him, based on what happened before? Dave was friends with Barr. Corny has leveled criticism, as have others, that he is to close to AEW to write about it objectively and he praises it for things he used to condemn. However, his opinions are informed by years of interacting with workers and watching and studying everything; from wrestling a match to booking a feud. His opinion is better informed than 90% of the internet. Still, the guy had a mullet! His reporting of the industry, though, tended to be more straight journalism than other newsletters and websites, because he trained and worked as a journalist. When talking about the Monday Night Wars, he broke down quarter hour numbers and looked at trends. Now statistics can be massaged to fit any premise, based on your analysis; but, he was usually pretty straight with things. Negativity, I think, is often a reflection of the state of the industry, though personal life is probably a big factor. By nature, newsletters were fan rants about what they liked and disliked. When things were good, they raved, when you had Russo at WCW, it was a catalog of trainwrecks. Personally, I found wrestling sheets to be much like comic fanzines, reflecting the personality of the publisher, praising what they loved, damning what they hated.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 11:27:00 GMT -5
Some of the worst ones were UK-produced newsletters. Nothing but cut and paste, some of them. No originality.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 19, 2020 13:50:00 GMT -5
Some of the worst ones were UK-produced newsletters. Nothing but cut and paste, some of them. No originality. Same with wrestling websites, especially in the early internet days. Most were just repeating, often verbatim, what was in the Observer (especially during the Montreal Screwjob, as Bret talked to Dave and vented about behind-the-scenes).
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Post by Deleted on Jul 19, 2020 15:01:29 GMT -5
I detest plagiarism. For many reasons. It even happened to me.
I got a letter printed in a horror magazine many, many years ago. A few years later, I was reading another horror magazine - and my heart skipped a beat. There was a letter using the EXACT same words/paragraphs I’d used. I was about to check if my name was underneath it, but it wasn’t. Some dick had obviously seen my letter and completely copied it (100%). After some anger, I realised that this muppet was to be pitied if he couldn’t come up with his own material.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 19, 2020 17:57:00 GMT -5
I detest plagiarism. For many reasons. It even happened to me. I got a letter printed in a horror magazine many, many years ago. A few years later, I was reading another horror magazine - and my heart skipped a beat. There was a letter using the EXACT same words/paragraphs I’d used. I was about to check if my name was underneath it, but it wasn’t. Some dick had obviously seen my letter and completely copied it (100%). After some anger, I realised that this muppet was to be pitied if he couldn’t come up with his own material. Not exactly plagiarism; but, my review title for the tv series Sable, based on the Mike Grell comic Jon Sable, Freelance, was swiped for a segment title in the pages of Back Issue magazine, in a feature on Jon Sable and Mike Grell. My review, on imdb (under the screen name Grendelkhan) was titled "So good it lasted 6 whole episodes!" The magazine segment carried the title, "So good it lasted 7 whole episodes." I had gotten the episode count wrong; but, otherwise, it was verbatim. Nothing else was taken from my review. however, for some time, it was the only review of the series on imdb. Of course, I didn't see the review until I acquired a digital collection of the magazine and stumbled across it, about 4 or 5 years after the fact. Ironically, plagiarism is a staple of pro wrestling. Wrestling gimmicks and angles have been copied across territories and promotions for generations. Sometimes the same wrestlers would do the same angles in multiple territories, since cable tv wasn't around to show what happened in other areas. In other times, bookers would use the same angle with different people. When Ric Flair and Ricky Steamboat did their series in WCW, they repeated an angle from Mid-Stlantic, where Flair presented a suit, only to be rebuffed by Steamboat and a fight ensues, with Flair left stripped down. He did the same thing with Magnum TA, in the early Crocket WTBS days. In the 70s, Knoxville did an angle with Crusher Jerry Blackwell as a simple-minded rube who was exploited by his manager, then a wrestler (possibly Ronnie Garvin) earns his freedom in a match. Garvin repeated the angle int he Poffo ICW, with Crusher Broomfield (the future One Man Gang and Akeem the African Dream), who was largely patterned after Blackwell (George Gray, aka Crusher Broomfield. One Man Gang et al, was still a rookie, in his ICW days). He also repeated a Florida angle where he stomped the false teeth of Prof Boris Malenko (Dean's father), smashing them to pieces. he did it with Ox Baker, in ICW, doing the same thing. Another repeated angle was the revelation that Randy Savage's real name was Poffo and that he was the brother of Leaping Lanny and the son of the Miser, who was exposed as Angelo Poffo. The Savage/Lanny thing had been done in Knoxville. The original Midnight Express (well, the Memphis version) was patterned after the Freebirds, with three people, with any two facing the babyfaces. The team was originally Dennis Condrey and Randy Rose, in Alabama, then Norvell Austin joined them in Memphis. When Jerry Jarrett and Bill Watts exchanged talent, Dennis went to Oklahoma, along with Bobby Eaton (who had been in a tag-team with Koko B Ware {as Sweet brown Sugar}) and rookie manager Jim Cornette, who had been working the B shows, managing the Galaxians (Danny davis and Ken Wayne, under masks; that team would change masks and become the Nightmares, to some success in Memphis and Alabama). They re-used the Midnight Express name and started the feud with the other B-show refugees, the Rock N Roll Express, who had been put together as a copy of the Fabulous Ones, who were on the A shows. With the massive success of their feud, from mid-South, to Crockett, to Smokey Mountain (with the Heavenly Bodies replacing the Midnight Express), everyone copied them, with variations on both the Midnights and the RNR Express, with Verne Gagne's Midnight Rockers swiping both. Marty Jannetty had been in an RNR rip-off, the Uptown Boys (from the Billy Joel song), with Tommy Lane (using the name Tommy Rogers), who would then go on to be part of the Rock N Roll RPMs, with Mike Davis. The Fantastics started as The Fantastic Ones, with Bobby Fulton and Terry Taylor, as part of the Memphis crew that worked parts of Georgia, in an agreement with Ole Anderson and GCW, as well as Chattanooga, Tennessee. Cornette got his first real break, with his Dynsaty of Champions, featuring King Carl Fergie, Norman Frederick Charles III and the Angel. The Fantastic Ones were a copy of the Fabulous Ones, right down to the Chippendale look, while the Dynasty of Champions attempted to be much like Jimmy Hart's First Family, a large heel stable that was at the center. Bill Dundee was the lead babyface and was also booking their matches and tv, which is why he brought Cornette along to Oklahoma and later brought in Bobby Fulton and Tommy Rogers (the real wrestling Tommy Rogers) as the Fantastics. Everyone swiped from the Mad Max series after the original Road Warriors were a hit in Georgia. Soon you had: The Barbarian (aka Konga the Barbarian), the Warlord, The Maxx Brothers (Mad Maxx and Super Maxx), the Blade Runners (Sting and Ultimate Warrior, as Sting and Rock), the Master Blasters (with a green Kevin Nash), Mad Maxine, Demolition, various Lord Humungi (Humongouses?) and everybody but The Toecutter, Aunty Entity, and Johnny the Boy. Then there is Sting and The Crow; but, at least no one got shot. Razor Ramon was swiped from Scarface (mostly attitude and the phony accent). Hulk Hogan swiped the t-shirt ripping from the Incredible Hulk tv series (more than the comic books) and everything else from Superstar Billy Graham (as did Jesse Ventura and Scott "Big Poppa Pump" Steiner). The WWF had a parade of knock-offs: Corporal Kirchner (Rambo), Outback Jack (Crocodile Dundee), Tatanka (Dances with Wolves), etc, etc...
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 19, 2020 19:51:42 GMT -5
^Glacier is a pretty glaring one from WCW. I think they even got sued by Midway and had to change his costume
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Post by Deleted on Jul 20, 2020 6:18:05 GMT -5
Here’s some merchandise from 1991, WWF bath salts: Image taken from current issue of WRESTLETALK.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 20, 2020 21:12:32 GMT -5
Because if there was ever an item that pro wrestling fans craved, it was bath salts.
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 21, 2020 10:13:20 GMT -5
Because if there was ever an item that pro wrestling fans craved, it was bath salts. That's assuming of course that wrestling fans care about hygiene
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Post by Deleted on Jul 21, 2020 10:20:18 GMT -5
Oh, we do.
Although, and I hate to say this, at almost every comic fair I’ve attended, there have been some hygiene issues. Was browsing the back issue bins once - and a real strong odour of unwashed armpits came over me. Had to move and return later. I do NOT exaggerate when I say this has happened at 95% of comic fairs I’ve been to. It hardly does anything for the reputation of comic fans.
I mean, the guy had a stack of comics in his hand. Probably twenty quid or more. I’m sure his budget could have stretched to soap and/or shower gel.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 6:57:42 GMT -5
The latest issue of WRESTLETALK is out. A writer called Liam Wyatt wrote a retrospective on Triple H’s 25-year career. Here are some interesting words from him:
The article was a very balanced article (more of that, please) which examined the pros and cons of Triple H’s career. No agenda, no pretentiousness, just the good and bad.
Personally, I think Triple H has worked hard. I don’t deny there may have been some privilege at times, but I feel he was on his way to something big before he married Stephanie McMahon. And even if the nepotism accusations were true, nepotism doesn’t always work in wrestling. Sure, sometimes it does, but if nepotism worked solely on its own, Horace Hogan would have been in main events - and Erik Watts would have been a world champion. Whatever opportunities Triple H had given to him, I think he put in a lot of hard work.
That’s my view.
What is talent, anyway? That’s an interesting debate. Some people out there can wrestle any style - and could have an interesting match with a broom. Others might have limited pure wrestling skills, but work on charisma and showmanship (I didn’t watch Hulk Hogan matches for side suplexes and wristlocks). Some might be able to work a good match with anyone - I feel that way about Shawn Michaels - while others, such as Triple H, probably need the right opponent.
Like I said, just my view.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2020 10:25:45 GMT -5
Triple H always struck me as a guy who could work up to the level of a great opponent; but, wasn't as good as elevating someone who wasn't at his level. Lanny Poffo said this about himself, when comparing himself to Randy. Randy, he said, could have a terrific match with anyone and make lesser talent look better. Lanny could work up to the greats but couldn't pull up the lesser talents. Triple H strikes me the same way. As someone said on the Wrestling Classics Board, he's the guy in great matches, rather than the guy who has great matches with everyone.
I don't deny the hard work and by most accounts, he was one of the few in the Kliq who was sober. However, he learned to be a political animal pretty quickly and landed in the ultimate job. He's played the political weasel card in situations like the Montreal Screwjob aftermath. If you have ever see Wrestling With Shadows, Julie Hart confronts them in the hallway, and rips into them, while Levesque swears he knew nothing about it, which was disproved rather quickly and easily. She doesn't buy it and continues laying into him and the rest. Funny thing was, that documentary shows that she was far sharper at the backstage politics than Bret, as another scene shows her not buying that Vince is agreeing to the title handover and some other things. Bret is blindly trusting Vince, a guy who will do what he feels is best for his company, because of his time there. Julie sees Vince for what he is: a guy out to make money and protect his company. I'm fairly certain she also knew about how much Bret was sleeping around on the road (by his own admission, in his book); but, let it go for quite a while, before their marriage ended.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 12:47:15 GMT -5
Titles. Longevity. Impact.
Those are three words I saw in a wrestling article recently. I believe the writer was using those words to convey the criteria needed to be considered an all-time great.
From a WWF perspective, what of those words?
Titles? That can be an important criteria, but not necessarily. Rowdy Piper and Andre the Giant, to name two, didn’t really hold many titles (I know there were some reigns), but surely they are all-time greats? And what of Jake Roberts? He didn’t win any belts during his WWF tenures, but I would consider him one of the all-time greats, especially from a psychological perspective.
Longevity? That can be important, there’s no denying something like Bret Hart’s 13-year career between 1984 and 1997. Or, Hulk Hogan’s initial run. The Ultimate Warrior made a heck of an impact during the “Cartoon Era”, but if you add up the time from his three WWF tenures, it can’t be more than 5-6 years in total, surely? Some wrestlers, such as Barry Horowitz, had a 3-year stint between 1987 and 1990. And then again from 1991 to 1995. His career lasted many years (not just in the WWF), but can anyone really say he had an impact? Longevity does not necessarily equate to impact.
Impact? Well, that goes without saying, I guess.
Thoughts?
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 22, 2020 16:25:40 GMT -5
Titles only matter if they mean something to the audience. The titles have been so de-valued by so many people having short runs with them that they are the same as the Memphis Southern heavyweight title. Everybody held it and Lawler lost and regained it every other week. The WWF became the same way. The titles meant more when they were held longer and feuds played out over longer periods of time. Bruno's original 7-year reign means more than John Cena's 13 title wins. All that means is he lost it 13 times to Bruno's 2. It meant something when Ivan Koloff took the title off of Bruno, after 7 years; the crowd in MSG sat there in stunned silence. Anyone remember who beat Cena, at any point?
Hogan's reign meant something, but less so every time he lost it and regained it. For Shawn and Bret, it was recognition of their hard work; but, also a realization that the WWF formula was played out. Neither was a big draw with the title, which is the point of the championship. Who holds the title is often more important than the title itself. Lou Thesz as NWA World Champion means vastly more than Ric Flair or Harley Race; each held it multiple times, but Thesz held it for over 6 years, from 1949 to 1956, when he decided to step down and pass it on. The fact that the NWA kept coming back to him speaks far more than the title. Thez made the belt, not the other way around. Similarly, Nick Aldis has done more to rehabilitate the NWA World title than Dan Severn, Gary Steel, Shinya Hashimoto or Colt Cabana. He and Bilyl Corgan made it seem important again, even if it was no longer the top title in wrestling. It had prestige again.
Longevity can speak volumes, but, can also speak more to behind the scenes. Thesz was champion for so long because he drew; but, also because his group was kicking the ass of the fledgling National Wrestling Alliance, to the point they brokered a title unification (Thesz held the National Wrestling Association World title, which had the stronger claim to lineage from the Gotch/Hackenschmidt title), with Thesz as champion. He set the tone for the organization and what the champion would be, traveling to various NWA promotions and defending against the local top draw, making him that much stronger, while getting a big piece of the gate. Jerry Lawler was a hometown boy made good, and stuck with Memphis, because he made more money being a big fish in a little pond than one of the boys elsewhere. he was good enough that when he went to other territories, his memphis rep, his promos, and psychology meant a strong draw. However, his title wins became a joke when they went into double digits, everyone knew he owned part of the territory (from the late 80s onward) and his failure to win a world title, until the AWA was getting desperate, devalued him.
Greg Gagne was with the AWA from his debut to the promotion's death; but, only because he was the son of the promoter. He was good and he did guest appearances in other territories; but, he was never going to be a top draw anywhere else and his own father wasn't stupid enough to put the title on him. That put him one up on Nick Gulas and Bill Watts.
Bret's longevity ended up destroying his career, in my opinion. He became a victim of politics, when he could have been in the top mix, sooner, in WCW. However, WCW's mismanagement would have likely derailed that evn before it made a mess of what remained of his career. Bulldog Bob Brown was a mainstay of the Central States promotion, but that didn't mean a dime at the box office
Impact is a nebulous term. Many have impact in the worst sense.
What matters is a body of work, short or long, that is memorable. It isn't the title, it isn't a single match (though one match can define a career); it is how that performer's work is remembered by fans. If they shelled out hard earned money to see them, or talk about them fondly decades later, that is all that matters. Everything else is just justification.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2020 16:44:36 GMT -5
Well said as ever, Cody.
Less is more, I feel. Love him or hate him, when Hulk Hogan won his fifth WWF Championship, it did feel special. Same when Bret won his fifth world title. They seemed to mean things more. The reigns had happened over a long period of time - and they were built to. It’ll always be subjective, of course.
But I think of Triple H. I am actually a fan so I can say this without an agenda: I believe he won the WWF Championship nine times - and the World Heavyweight Championship five times. Fourteen world title reigns is impressive in one sense, but I can’t rate it in the same way as Bret’s five world title reigns - or Randy Savage’s two world title reigns. Comparing the Federation Era and the Attitude Era onwards, for me two world title reigns for Savage mean more than nine WWF Championship reigns for Triple H. It just did. I can’t quite explain why. Maybe it’s because the reigns were longer, there were fewer PPVs, etc. Less definitely is more.
And the man makes the title, Jake Roberts said that during a shoot interview. Vince Russo holding the WCW World Heavyweight Championship for 2 days (or however long it was) means absolutely nothing to me. But, love him or hate him, Warrior’s nine-month WWF Championship reign means something to me. It is about the person, not the title.
Russo didn’t get the concept of a belt. He was interviewed by a wrestling journalist here in the UK - and he just dismissed wrestling as ‘fake’ and wrestling belts as ‘fake heavyweight titles’. Well, why not get rid of them entirely, then? Even in fiction, something has to be meaningful. We know magical items in fantasy films are fictional - and not real, but we have to believe in the prestige of something. We have to care and believe in the quest of a Bilbo Baggins or an Indiana Jones.
This is the interview I was thinking of (some of the journalist’s questions are silly, but Russo is sillier):
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