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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 8, 2019 23:04:43 GMT -5
It seemed WCW couldn't get a lot right during its existence, whether it was Halloween Havoc 1998 cutting off during the main event, the lack of a videotape licensee in the UK or many, many things. Then there's Davey Boy Smith... Between 1994 and 2000, WCW didn't tour the UK (the WWF has had many UK tours during its existence). Other than tape trading, all we got was one hour of Nitro in the late 90s. You would think some brain surgeon in WCW might have thought about touring the UK when Davey Boy Smith signed. I mean, it was a no-brainer, right? They could have had a non-title match between Davey Boy Smith and Hollywood Hulk Hogan (I accept they wouldn't have given Davey Boy a world title run). Davey Boy debuted with WCW around 1998, right? The NWO angle was still hot. Hogan was still semi-popular even though his popularity had waned. WCW's brain surgeons could have done a UK tour, culminating in a Davey Boy/Hogan match (those two never fought). But they didn't tour. And why didn't they do some sort of Canadian tour when Bret Hart signed with them? Did WCW ever once visit Canada? Bret Hart had so much momentum when he joined WCW. They could have marketed a mini-tour around his presence. The WWF knew how to do hype - and still does. Remember the "WrestleMania Revenge Tour" of 1994? Glorified house shows, really, but it was marketed a certain way. And it worked. I cannot believe ONE person in WCW didn't think to market a mini-Canadian tour for Bret or a UK tour built around a Davey Boy/Hogan match. They really were clueless at times. No wonder they ended up as part of the WWE video library. Well, as far as Canada, most of the local Canadian promoters were working with Vince (Toronto, Montreal, Calgary, etc.) WCW would need Canadian partners. As for the UK? Who knows on that one, other than they were making plenty in the US, until the bottom dropped out. They did tour Europe and did well in Germany, at various times. In fact, it was a German date on a WCW tour when Foley lost the tip of his ear. I do believe they at least had dates in Ireland, not sure about the UK.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 8, 2019 23:26:55 GMT -5
QuestionYour view of NWO during the WCW days? Started out well, but, they botched the finish. the babyface has to make their comeback, or there is no story. The WCW crew was never allowed to get one back on the NWO, even with the climax, at Starcade, with Sting vs Hogan. Instead, we got a contested finish and Hogan back with the belt. It just didn't work. At the start, it was great; but, then it got devalued when it went from being HaLl, Nash and Hogan to guys like Bagwell, Virgil, Konan and Scott Norton. They were all undercard guys or worse. Sean Waltman you could debate; but, he was part of the Kliq, so he at least had a history. The failure to put Sting over cleanly killed WCW's momentum and things started falling apart from then on. The idea was swiped by Bischoff, from the New Japan and UWFi feud, that had recently concluded. UWFi brokered the deal to work with New Japan, in hopes of boosting their drawing power, as the novelty of shoot promotions was fading, especially in light of real shoot promotions, like Pancrase, Shooto and the just starting UFC. They agreed to let Ricki Chosu book the thing (New Japan's terms), which had the UWFi get the upper hand early, with Nobuhiko Takada defeating the Great Muta, for the IWGP title, before losing it to Shinya Hashimoto, at the end of the feud. new Japan came out of it stronger and with a bigger profile and UWFi was made to look weak and died, after trying the same thing with Tenryu's WAR promotion. At least, from the New Japan side, the feud was booked correctly. The invaders get the upper hand int he beginning; then, the babyfaces make the comeback, winning in the end. That is the basic pro wrestling formula. NWO ended in a status quo and fans tuned out, long before the 1 finger knockout or David Arquette. Same thing happened with the WWF, when they were handed the Invasion angle, and botched it because they wouldn't sign any of the stars and wouldn't let WCW look strong against the WWF, except with WWF wrestlers rejoining their old buddies (mainly ECW). That plus putting the Mcmahons in each faction. I don't blame Vince for not buying out contracts for guys like Sting and Luger, who were getting massive guaranteed payments; but, DDP had been willing to take a payoff to come in, they had Booker T and Flair would have probably taken a payoff to come in earlier, with a long term guarantee about a role. Booker was treated like an after thought until after the angle died, DDP was brought in, after the Invasion and jobbed out to Undertaker's non-wrestling wife (since divorced) and Flair didn't come in for a long time. NWO should have been, at most, a 6 month angle, leading to Sting defeating Hogan for the title, cleanly; but, Hogan had veto power and wouldn't lose cleanly to anyone, until he sensed that it was right to do it with Goldberg, so he could then take it back from him. However, even he was stupid enough to book Nash's program (which Nash booked) to have him go over Goldberg so soon, and then hand it to Hogan (which was probably Hogan's manipulation, knowing that Nash never drew a dime in a top spot, except as part of the NWO trio. Goldberg was never going to work, long term, because he couldn't work and they had to keep matches short and make him look like a monster. That meant killing everyone who went up against him, in the under and mid-card. You couldn't do that with what main event crowd you had. he need workers to make him look good and Hall wasn't sober enough to keep doing it and Regal was let go (after drug problems and his match where Goldberg got lost and Regal had to wrestle him back into position to go into the finish, which made it look like Goldberg had trouble with him). The NWO thing got people to watch; but, the segments that drew audiences were with the cruiserweights and the exciting matches. That was their future, as an alternative to the WWF. However, Haall, nash and Hogan weren't going to put them over (well, Nash and Hogan; Hall was too messed up to work, period). Eddie Guerrero could have been a real draw on top there; but, that company never had the vision or the execution. Vince did and made Eddie an even bigger star, before his past caught up with him.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 1:08:57 GMT -5
Thanks for the rundown ... codystarbuck; I was thinking the same thing; but I did not know about "The idea was swiped by Bischoff, from the New Japan and UWFi feud, that had recently concluded. UWFi brokered the deal to work with New Japan, in hopes of boosting their drawing power, as the novelty of shoot promotions was fading, especially in light of real shoot promotions, like Pancrase, Shooto and the just starting UFC." ... The italic is from you and I did not know that and that's interesting to know.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 9, 2019 1:29:56 GMT -5
Thanks for the rundown ... codystarbuck ; I was thinking the same thing; but I did not know about "The idea was swiped by Bischoff, from the New Japan and UWFi feud, that had recently concluded. UWFi brokered the deal to work with New Japan, in hopes of boosting their drawing power, as the novelty of shoot promotions was fading, especially in light of real shoot promotions, like Pancrase, Shooto and the just starting UFC." ... The italic is from you and I did not know that and that's interesting to know. New Japan did two (sort of 3) invasion angles. originally, in the mid to late 80s, Tiger Mask, Akira Maeda and a few others split to form the first UWF, with an emphasis on clean finishes and a more realistic style (proto-shoot). It was a big deal from the start and was massively popular. Then, they started having conflicts between the guys who wanted to emphasize submission wrestling (Tiger Mask's camp) and those wanting more martial arts (Maeda's camp). There was also some financial shenanigans, in the office. Maeda and Tiger Mask had a match and Maeda took a cheap shot aimed at Sayama's groin (it landed in the abdomen) and they stopped cooperating. Sayama left and the promotion folded soon after. Then, Maeda and his crew went back to New Japan, tail between the legs. they did a UWF vs New Japan feud, upon the return, with New Japan going over, in the end. They sort of did a second with Ricki Chosu, who switched to All Japan, then came back. The UWFI vs New Japan was kind of the third, though UWFi remained a separate program. Bischoff saw at least part of the UWFi vs New Japan feud, while WCW was cross-promoting with them. This feud drew 67, 000 fans to the Tokyo Dome, for Takada vs Muta. The rematch, where Takad won the IWGP title drew 64, 000 fans. The blowoff, where Hashimoto won the title for New Japan, drew 65, 000 fans and over $5 million in box office. Bischoff saw those numbers, got turner to offer big money, concocted the Outsiders, made it look like the WWF was invading (until Vince threatened a lawsuit), then had Hogan turn heel and join the Outsiders and declare a New World Order. Then, they had Luger playing a tweener and the question of Sting joining the Outsiders. Could Luger trust Sting? Sting stayed true then walked out, disappointed in Lex and the WCW fans for not believing in him . Then, he's slowly turning into the Crow (which was fresh, at the movies and was Hall's idea) and then he started haunting the rafters. Then he dropping in the ring, with the bat, pointing at people. Whose side is he on? Then, they did that great video package, set to "Holding On For A Hero," where Sting is shown as the last hope for WCW. Starcade had their biggest buys since starting PPV. And they blew it and it never recovered.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 6:31:36 GMT -5
Yes, there were WCW tours in the UK. I attended this one:
WCW @ Birmingham, England - NEC - March 12, 1993 (10,500) Van Hammer fought Maxx Payne to a time-limit draw Michael Hayes defeated Scotty Flamingo Davey Boy Smith pinned Vinnie Vegas Rick Rude defeated Johnny B. Badd Big Van Vader defeated Cactus Jack WCW World Champion Sting & WCW US Champion Dustin Rhodes defeated NWA World Champion Barry Windham & WCW TV Champion Paul Orndorff in a bunkhouse match when Sting pinned Orndorff after hitting him with a boot
It was great seeing my fellow Brit Davey Boy Smith in action. To think, Davey Boy Smith fought Vinnie Vegas on the undercard and yet both were main-eventing 2+ years later at In Your House 4.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 6:36:28 GMT -5
The nWo angle ran far too long. They diluted the concept when everyone from Scott Norton to Santa Claus joined the faction.
It started off well for me. It rejuvenated Hulk Hogan's career. After that silly Doomsday Cage Match at Uncensored 1996, Hogan went on hiatus. Would we have wanted him to return for further Hulkamania VS Dungeon of Doom bouts? Turning him heel presented fresh possibilities.
Could a heroic Hogan teaming with the likes of Sting against Hall and Nash have worked? Perhaps. But if that would have meant having Luger as the third man, well it'd have been anti-climatic.
It felt tiring after a bit, though. WCW would get a few wins, but they meant nothing as a team like the Steiners would win the tag belts, but be stripped of them. Luger pinned Hogan for the WCW World Title in August 1997 (an incredibly energetic and heated match!), but lost it about a week later at Road Wild. And they screwed up Starrcade 1997 (did Nick Patrick's quick count really count as fast? Looked like a normal count to me. And could anyone here Bret Hart on the microphone?).
It was downhill from there. I quite liked the idea of the nWo VS nWo Wolfpac feud. It makes sense for a faction to split. But then Fall Brawl made zero sense - and Goldberg's momentum being killed at Starrcade pissed me off. From January 1999 onwards, it was the pits. And the less said about Russo's nWo, the better.
WCW, why did you do what you did?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 6:42:12 GMT -5
So, Hulk Hogan turning face again in 1999? Thoughts?
It came out of nowhere. Yes, it was inevitable he was always going to resurrect Hulkamania. He couldn't remain a villain forever. But that came out of nowhere.
I'd always imagined a "Road to Hulkamania" redemption angle lasting several weeks. With a big apology speech by Hogan. And Hogan redeeming himself. Instead, Hogan, probably thinking of himself rather than others, just brought back the red and yellow with little fanfare.
Gotta love wrestling logic, though. As nWo Hogan, he submitted three times to Luger's torture rack; as face Hogan, he managed to resist Luger's torture rack. What changed?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 8:57:54 GMT -5
Thanks for the rundown ... codystarbuck ; I was thinking the same thing; but I did not know about "The idea was swiped by Bischoff, from the New Japan and UWFi feud, that had recently concluded. UWFi brokered the deal to work with New Japan, in hopes of boosting their drawing power, as the novelty of shoot promotions was fading, especially in light of real shoot promotions, like Pancrase, Shooto and the just starting UFC." ... The italic is from you and I did not know that and that's interesting to know. Bischoff saw at least part of the UWFi vs New Japan feud, while WCW was cross-promoting with them. This feud drew 67, 000 fans to the Tokyo Dome, for Takada vs Muta. The rematch, where Takad won the IWGP title drew 64, 000 fans. The blowoff, where Hashimoto won the title for New Japan, drew 65, 000 fans and over $5 million in box office. Bischoff saw those numbers, got turner to offer big money, concocted the Outsiders, made it look like the WWF was invading (until Vince threatened a lawsuit), then had Hogan turn heel and join the Outsiders and declare a New World Order. Then, they had Luger playing a tweener and the question of Sting joining the Outsiders. Could Luger trust Sting? Sting stayed true then walked out, disappointed in Lex and the WCW fans for not believing in him . Then, he's slowly turning into the Crow (which was fresh, at the movies and was Hall's idea) and then he started haunting the rafters. Then he dropping in the ring, with the bat, pointing at people. Whose side is he on? Then, they did that great video package, set to "Holding On For A Hero," where Sting is shown as the last hope for WCW. Starcade had their biggest buys since starting PPV. And they blew it and it never recovered. Thanks for this wrap up, Cody.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 9:13:28 GMT -5
So, Hulk Hogan turning face again in 1999? Thoughts? It came out of nowhere. Yes, it was inevitable he was always going to resurrect Hulkamania. He couldn't remain a villain forever. But that came out of nowhere. I'd always imagined a "Road to Hulkamania" redemption angle lasting several weeks. With a big apology speech by Hogan. And Hogan redeeming himself. Instead, Hogan, probably thinking of himself rather than others, just brought back the red and yellow with little fanfare. Gotta love wrestling logic, though. As nWo Hogan, he submitted three times to Luger's torture rack; as face Hogan, he managed to resist Luger's torture rack. What changed? For me alone, I felt it was a bit awkward and I simply care less about it and the timing of that was bizarre and totally unexpected and like you said he brought back the red and yellow with little fanfare and that alone I can accept that notion. Regarding Luger's torture rack ... I thought it was a joke and I don't think it was all that significant and that's made me think that Luger's value to WCW at the time diminished and his status as a main eventer was weaken after that and I fell out of favor of him. Lex Luger is one of those wrestler that I had a hard time dealing with and he wasn't used right in both WWF/WWE and WCW. The worst angle is when Bobby "The Brain" Heenan did the Narcissist Angle back in 1993 and that alone tells me he is a joke and I just don't care about his career after 1993. If you did a poll of the worst Superstar in Professional Wrestling History ... I put him in the top 5 for sure.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 9, 2019 13:07:13 GMT -5
I did enjoy a lot of Luger's work in JCP/WCW. His matches against Stan Hansen in 1990 were tremendous bouts.
I have no proof of this, but he seemed to lose motivation later on, especially in WWF. And I can understand that. At 1993's SummerSlam, he was challenging Yokozuna for the WWF Championship; at the 1994 event, he was wrestling Tatanka in a bout some may not have cared about; and at the 1995 event, he didn't even wrestle on the card, being relegated to a run-in during the Diesel/Mabel title bout. I'd have lost motivation under those circumstances.
When he returned to WCW a short while later, it did feel like it lit something under him. Again, this is just my judgement, but he seemed motivated again. Did it last? I am not sure it did as time went on, but I can't prove that.
It is sad when a person's career goes on a downhill slide. Careers are supposed to soar high. In 1994, Shawn loses an I-C Title ladder match to Ramon yet two years later he wins the WWF Championship from Bret Hart. With Luger, to go from challenging for the WWF Title to performing a run-in during a title match is quite the demotion.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 9, 2019 22:19:35 GMT -5
I did enjoy a lot of Luger's work in JCP/WCW. His matches against Stan Hansen in 1990 were tremendous bouts. I have no proof of this, but he seemed to lose motivation later on, especially in WWF. And I can understand that. At 1993's SummerSlam, he was challenging Yokozuna for the WWF Championship; at the 1994 event, he was wrestling Tatanka in a bout some may not have cared about; and at the 1995 event, he didn't even wrestle on the card, being relegated to a run-in during the Diesel/Mabel title bout. I'd have lost motivation under those circumstances. When he returned to WCW a short while later, it did feel like it lit something under him. Again, this is just my judgement, but he seemed motivated again. Did it last? I am not sure it did as time went on, but I can't prove that. It is sad when a person's career goes on a downhill slide. Careers are supposed to soar high. In 1994, Shawn loses an I-C Title ladder match to Ramon yet two years later he wins the WWF Championship from Bret Hart. With Luger, to go from challenging for the WWF Title to performing a run-in during a title match is quite the demotion. I read his book; but, it was kind of thin on details of his career and life. It was published by a Christian Inspiration publishing house, which means they probably supplied the writer, which usually means not quality or knowledge. Anyway, he was in a motorcycle accident (believe it was motorcycle, not a car), and shattered his forearm. He had left WCW; but, his contract wasn't up and he couldn't wrestle for the WWF; but, his manager found a loophole and he was signed to McMahon's WBF bodybuilding group, at much higher salary than the rest were getting. however, the injury kept him from doing anything there, so he sat out his time until he was well enough to wrestle, which was the Narcissus gimmick. he was fine with that and Vince loved the idea and paired him with Heenan, who was scaling back from managing. it was seen as a nod that he would be main eventing. However, the seem to have problems booking a program for him and then decided to switch him babyface, with the Yokozuna bodyslam challenge and the Lex Express things. Luger was a naturally arrogant guy, who tended to tick people off and that happened there, too. People didn't buy him as a babyface and the thing wasn't working, which is why they did the split main event for Wrestlemania X. Vince thought he might have another Hogan; but, Luger couldn't be that kind of babyface and they soured on him, in general. Luger was also one of the first wrestlers to use a sports agent, for contract negotiations, which didn't endear him to Vince (or WCW). He then jumped ship to return on the debut of Monday Nitro. That's part of why Vince crapped all over his name on the final Nitro broadcast. Lex also had a pill problem. It was worse in the latter days of WCW. Mostly, though, he had trained under Hiro Matsuda and was one of the last guys to be developed under Eddie Graham (along with Ron Simmons) and he worked that Southern style that Vince didn't like. I think he was far more comfortable in the WCW mix, with Windham, Sting and Flair, because they knew how to work each others style, while the WWF was more about power moves and punch kick. Lex wasn't going to bump for Michaels or Bret and Yoko was limited in what he could do and Lex wasn't a guy to make the other look better (usually the reverse). When he was back in WCW, he was on familiar ground, with guys who knew how to work his kind of match.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 6:14:56 GMT -5
Regarding the WWF, I was always dismayed how it seemed like they always had to have long main events.
Case in point: the Luger/Yokozuna match at SummerSlam 1993 was nearly 18 minutes long. Luger and Yokozuna should not have been wrestling for nearly 20 minutes. Bret VS Owen or Shawn Michaels VS Razor Ramon suits 20 minutes. Given Luger and Yokozuna's specific talents, 18 minutes, give or take, was too long. With some, less is more. I think 12 minutes would have been more acceptable. I sure remember a lot of dead spots and nerve holds in that match!
Some main events weren't long. Without checking, I'm gonna guess Hogan/Bundy (WM II) didn't go beyond 10-11 minutes. And that suited the match. Had they been put in a cage for 20 minutes, the limitations of their dynamics would have been exposed, I feel.
It just seemed that the WWF didn't want to do short main events at times. And I feel a short main event is better depending on the talents involved.
I said this to someone once and they asked if I had a short attention span. LOL. Of course not! Bret wrestling Owen (a little over 20 minutes) at WM X was ideal. 30 or 60-minute iron man matches are great, too. But the talents of/dynamic between Luger and Yokozuna didn't make for a conducive match if it was expected to be 18+ minutes.
Just my view, of course!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 7:32:27 GMT -5
"Luger/Yokozuna match at SummerSlam 1993 was nearly 18 minutes long. Luger and Yokozuna should not have been wrestling for nearly 20 minutes" from @taxidriver1980
That match was should had cut in half; 8-10 minutes top.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 7:39:07 GMT -5
Not that I'd ever have the talent to book a match, but I'd be conscious of the duration of a match.
I just checked the duration for the Diesel/Psycho Sid match (In Your House 1). It lasted 11:31. Which was right. Imagine if someone had thought, 'We want our main events to be nearly 20 minutes.'
I never understood why Batista VS JBL (Great American Bash 2005) was nearly 20 minutes long. Those two didn't have the chemistry to do a near 20-minute match. I remember not enjoying the match at all. I just felt that there seemed to be a mindset that main events had to be a certain length, especially as time went on.
In my view, that's a flawed premise. I am a Hogan fan - he got me interested in the sport - but it was right that if he was wrestling a monster like Bundy or Andre, matches needed to be under 15 minutes. When he was wrestling the likes of Randy Savage, 15 minutes or more was fine. Had Hogan wrestled Bret in late 1993, I think 20 minutes would have been fine. I was fine with Hogan/Warrior (the WM VI match) being nearly 23 minutes long.
I'd have trusted Shawn Michaels to have a long match with anyone. He seemed to bring out the best in his opponents if they were opponents with less talent (subjective though it is). But neither Luger nor Yokozuna had the skills to make a match compelling when its duration was near to 20 minutes.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 10, 2019 16:20:20 GMT -5
WWF was usually shorter than than WCW/Crockett. Their main events were rarely less than 20 minutes, and 30 was common for Flair's title defenses (and 60 minute matches, on the road). The NWA formula was always longer matches, for the title. originally 2 out of 3 falls, then just longer matches that built slowly over 30-60 minutes. Fir the WWF, a 60 minute Iron match was a gimmick; for the Nwa it was an average night.
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