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Post by Deleted on Aug 10, 2019 23:35:36 GMT -5
WWF was usually shorter than than WCW/Crockett. Their main events were rarely less than 20 minutes, and 30 was common for Flair's title defenses (and 60 minute matches, on the road). The NWA formula was always longer matches, for the title. originally 2 out of 3 falls, then just longer matches that built slowly over 30-60 minutes. Fir the WWF, a 60 minute Iron match was a gimmick; for the Nwa it was an average night. You jarred my memory and I did managed to watch several WCW/Crockett matches and those matches were more genuine than WWF and that's the reasons that I find early WCW/Crockett matches were more rapplin than WWF. Flair matches in title defense back then were legendary and I have seen 3-4 of them in the late 70's and early 80's. I wished they bring back 2 out of 3 falls matches those were great to watch. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 6:46:36 GMT -5
WWF was usually shorter than than WCW/Crockett. Their main events were rarely less than 20 minutes, and 30 was common for Flair's title defenses (and 60 minute matches, on the road). The NWA formula was always longer matches, for the title. originally 2 out of 3 falls, then just longer matches that built slowly over 30-60 minutes. Fir the WWF, a 60 minute Iron match was a gimmick; for the Nwa it was an average night. This is why I enjoyed the variety that different US promotions offered. I first saw JCP/NWA around 1990/91 (ITV showed it on a Sunday morning, circa 3am-4am). At the time, I was watching WWF on satellite, with its gimmicks, short main events, etc. JCP/NWA/WCW offered me a different style. And I enjoyed it. When First Independent then started selling WCW videotapes in the UK, it was an alternative. So while my WWF tapes offered me short main events (12 minutes or less) of showmanship and brawling, the WCW tapes offered me 30-minute main events featuring a style of wrestling I had only really seen on "World of Sport". Variety is good! |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 11, 2019 8:46:02 GMT -5
There's an excellent career retrospective of Harley Race in the current issue of the Wrestling Observer.
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Post by howardm416 on Aug 12, 2019 10:53:37 GMT -5
WWF was usually shorter than than WCW/Crockett. Their main events were rarely less than 20 minutes, and 30 was common for Flair's title defenses (and 60 minute matches, on the road). The NWA formula was always longer matches, for the title. originally 2 out of 3 falls, then just longer matches that built slowly over 30-60 minutes. Fir the WWF, a 60 minute Iron match was a gimmick; for the Nwa it was an average night. You jarred my memory and I did managed to watch several WCW/Crockett matches and those matches were more genuine than WWF and that's the reasons that I find early WCW/Crockett matches were more rapplin than WWF. Flair matches in title defense back then were legendary and I have seen 3-4 of them in the late 70's and early 80's. I wished they bring back 2 out of 3 falls matches those were great to watch. WWE has had a few 2 out of 3 falls matches recently. The problem with them is that they instantly telegraph that it will be 3 falls. Whoever gets pinned or submitted in the first fall, you can guarantee will win the second fall and force a sudden death third fall. I have never once seen a best 2 out 3 falls match that ended with one guy winning the first two falls and eliminating the need for the third fall. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 11:18:06 GMT -5
The only place I recall seeing it is during British wrestling cards (80s) where every match was a 2-out-of-3-falls match, at least on "World of Sport".
Telegraphing is counter-productive.
I quite like how they did it during the Hart Foundation/Demolition match at SummerSlam 1990. Demolition won the first fall. They lost the second fall, but only via DQ. No-one was pinned obviously. So in my young mind at the time, there was that question about who would win. Demolition had decisively pinned Bret Hart. But despite losing the second fall, it was only via DQ. Still a loss, yes, but no-one had pinned Smash or Crush. So for me at the time, it felt like the third fall was everything to play for.
Years later, I remember over-analysing that match. We were always told titles could not change hands via DQ or count-out. Shouldn't that match have been a draw, with Demolition retaining? Demolition had got one pin, the Hart Foundation had got one pin. If titles can't change hands via DQ, that should have made the second fall obsolete. So 1-1 in my book.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 12, 2019 13:25:37 GMT -5
Years later, I remember over-analysing that match. We were always told titles could not change hands via DQ or count-out. Shouldn't that match have been a draw, with Demolition retaining? Demolition had got one pin, the Hart Foundation had got one pin. If titles can't change hands via DQ, that should have made the second fall obsolete. So 1-1 in my book. Agree with you on this. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 18:25:34 GMT -5
Question: is there a reason Roddy Piper didn't get pinned by Hulk Hogan when they had their 1985 feud? Correct me if I'm wrong, but although Piper lost via DQ (and probably count out), Hogan never pinned him.
Yet this was a time when Hogan was pinning the likes of Orndorff, Studd, Bundy, Andre, etc. With Hogan's clout, I just wondered if anyone knew why he never got a pinfall over Hot Rod.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2019 19:04:22 GMT -5
Question: is there a reason Roddy Piper didn't get pinned by Hulk Hogan when they had their 1985 feud? Correct me if I'm wrong, but although Piper lost via DQ (and probably count out), Hogan never pinned him. Yet this was a time when Hogan was pinning the likes of Orndorff, Studd, Bundy, Andre, etc. With Hogan's clout, I just wondered if anyone knew why he never got a pinfall over Hot Rod. I don't know why and that's something that I'm not a fan of finding out these things and I'm not a fan of Roddy Piper because he never ever made Wrestling serious enough to get a major title during his heydays/prime and I just don't know why he did this at all. I just had a hard time understanding him and when NWO was at the height ... NWO made him a joke and that's bothers me and his time in Professional Wrestling ... he was more a joke (sorry that I said that) and I just had a hard time understanding him. His match with Hulk Hogan at SuperBrawl 7 was the worst match of the year in 1997 and that alone made me ill and angry that this did nothing for his career. The only thing in his career was entertaining was his Piper Pit in WWF/WWE and that's made me smile now and then. According to my knowledge that he was an Intercontinental Champ once in WWF/WWE and that alone bothers me and still does. He was a Tag Team once with Ric Flair and that happen late in his career. When, he died in 2015; I enjoyed his acting career and made a name of himself in Hollywood and that's made me smile too. I considered him a good actor and did it with professional pride and one of my favorite shows that he did was Walker, Texas Ranger of where he played a professional wrestler by the name of Cody 'The Crusader' Conway back in 1998. That's sums up Piper for me. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 13, 2019 21:56:10 GMT -5
Roddy was kept strong, because he was the top heel of the company. He was a heat magnet, which made people buy tickets. Hogan's programs were short: he'd get ambushed, lot of talk back and forth, then the blowoff. He didn't do long programs, though they might not get to the match for several weeks of a couple of months. After that, though, that was pretty much it for the heel. Orndorff was one of the few kept strong; but the rest usually moved back to midcard status. With Piper, you didn't want to kill him off, so you don't pin him .
Forget Piper's WWF career. He was mostly there to talk and generate heat, which he did in spades. You want to see the real Roddy Piper, you need to look at what he was doing in the Mid-Atlantic promotion, just before he came to the WWF, with his US title match series with Greg Valentine (culminating in their Starcarde dog collar match, matches with Flair; plus, his stuff in Georgia and Portland. He always had a soft spot for Portland promoter Don Owens, who gave him his first main event break. he ended up settling there, because he loved the area and would come back through and make appearances, even when he worked for the WWF. Also, there is very little footage available, but, there are bits of pieces on Youtube of his time in LA, feuding with Chavo Guerrero Sr.
Here's Piper in Mid-Atlantic, against Jack Brisco (forgive the annoying commentary by David Crockett, part of the Crockett family who promoted Mid-Atlantic)
Here's an angle with Flair, with an amateur wrestling hook...
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 13, 2019 22:36:44 GMT -5
You also have to remember that Piper was only full time for about a year or two, before Hollywood offers took up more of his time. He had already been involved in one movie, The One and Only (with Henry Winkler), where he played Leatherneck Joe. The film was done with LA wrestlers, at the Olympic Auditorium, including Piper, Chavo Guerrero Sr, and Judo Gene LeBell (part of the LeBell promotion family). However, after his time in the WWF, especially the Cyndi Lauper stuff, which led to the first Wrestlemania, he was all over media pieces about the WWF and Hollywood saw a great character in him.
He did Bodyslam in 1986, an episode of the Highwayman, in 87, Hell Comes to Frogtown, in 88, They Live in 88, then is working steadily in Hollywood, with short stints back in the WWF, until 1997. He was getting way better parts than Hogan, which was part of their rivalry. Hogan got even worse films than Piper's earlier stuff (Bodyslam is bad, but Piper is poorly used in it; Hell Comes to Frogtown is cheesy fun). Hell Comes to frogtown is Citizen Kane, compared to No Holds Barred, The Nanny, or Suburban Commando.
Piper was one of those guys who didn't need a title to get over; he did it with his promos and his wild matches. He held belts in San Francisco, LA, Portland, and Mid-Atlantic, Mid-Atlantic, with the Mid-Atlantic version of the US Hwt title being the last, before coming to the WWF. They only put the IC title on him later, mainly as a way for him to work with both Jacques Rougeau (The Mountie) and Bret Hart, who he had known since they were kids (Bret while working shots in Stampede, for Stu Hart and Jacques from his family in Montreal). Otherwise, he didn't need it and it was more of a way to anoint Bret.
Piper did great business with Hogan and the NWO, in 1996, when he turned up. In fact, he was about the only one on the WCW side who was allowed to get payback with the NWO (DDP being the other, until Sting started laying them out).
Piper, from about 1978-1983 is pure gold, on the mic and in the ring; then, he is more of taker from then on, with sporadic matches.
Really, when you look at post-Expansion WWF and their cartoon presentation, the only person the fans believed was real was Piper. They hated his guts, as a heel, and they worshipped him as a babyface. Kids believed in Hogan, as a hero; but, adults tended to grow bored with him or mock his style, unless he was matched up with a really good heel, like Hogan or Ted Dibiase.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 5:39:29 GMT -5
I'm a huge Piper fan. Absence did make the heart grow fonder. Whenever he was on hiatus, I missed him.
I remember rooting for him at the Royal Rumble 1992 during the 30-Man Rumble. He'd already won the I-C Title from the Mountie that evening. In my mind, I was thinking, 'If he can win the Rumble, he'll become the first man to win the Intercontinental and World Title in one night.'
I liked how he showed up at WCW and we got Hogan/Piper Feud II. I was surprised to see Hogan do the job at Starrcade. And wasn't the hype for that match phenomenal?
WCW screwed everything up as usual. Didn't Piper have an un-hyped heel turn around 1999? And why did he ring the bell in the Goldberg/Hart match atStarrcade 1999? Man, WCW was like King Midas, but everything they touched turned to crap.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 8:21:31 GMT -5
WCW screwed everything up as usual. Didn't Piper have an un-hyped heel turn around 1999? And why did he ring the bell in the Goldberg/Hart match at Starrcade 1999? Man, WCW was like King Midas, but everything they touched turned to crap. I agree with this and I know you are a big Piper Fan ... but to me, I just having a hard time dealing with him and I just even having a hard time understanding that he is a heel or a face. WCW really blew it with Piper and I just don't know what to say about it. |
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 8:29:53 GMT -5
Speaking of that era, I feel Hogan VS Bundy at WrestleMania 2 is a really good match.
I like how heated it is, it lasts just the right amount of time - and is very credible. Suspension of disbelief was easy with a match like that, I felt.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2019 16:36:24 GMT -5
Speaking of that era, I feel Hogan VS Bundy at WrestleMania 2 is a really good match. I like how heated it is, it lasts just the right amount of time - and is very credible. Suspension of disbelief was easy with a match like that, I felt. It was star studded ... I was surprised to see Robert Conrad as the guest referee and it was entertaining to boot. I consider it good match all around. |
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Post by brutalis on Aug 14, 2019 16:45:38 GMT -5
Hot Rod was always entertaining! You could count on him for the best in trash talking and willingness to back up anything he said whether he was right or wrong. He was the personification of a loud mouth bully from High School who never ever grew up until he had someone stand up to him and smack him down to his proper place. And it was always great to see Piper making a run as the stand up guy backing someone else's play.
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