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Post by Batflunkie on Jun 2, 2022 8:29:58 GMT -5
Totally agree Undertaker is the best WWF/E character ever (we'll just pretend the 'American Badass' version never happened, shall we?) There's actually quite a few people out there that like the American Badass run, myself included
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2022 8:51:12 GMT -5
Totally agree Undertaker is the best WWF/E character ever (we'll just pretend the 'American Badass' version never happened, shall we?) There's actually quite a few people out there that like the American Badass run, myself included For me, it was a fun reinvention. Was pleased to see the Deadman return in 2004, but I did like the American Badass run. Without subtle reinventions, I’m not sure Undertaker would have had the longevity that he is known for.
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Post by The Captain on Jun 2, 2022 9:03:56 GMT -5
Totally agree Undertaker is the best WWF/E character ever (we'll just pretend the 'American Badass' version never happened, shall we?) There's actually quite a few people out there that like the American Badass run, myself included The American Badass run made sense. The company was moving away from gimmicks and more toward just having wrestlers get over based on their mat and mic skills. Effete snob Hunter Hearst Helmsley became Triple H, and you had Steve Austin, Chris Jericho, Chris Benoit, Eddie Guerrero, Kurt Angle, Edge and Christian, the Hardy Boys and others no longer wearing goofy costumes and portraying garbage men, porn stars, vampires, and voodoo priests. Yeah, guys like Justin Bradshaw and Ron Simmons played tough guy enforcers, but that doesn’t stray too far from reality like a Gangrel or Val Venis does, although the Godfather has always been a bit of a headscratcher to me (although the girls didn’t hurt him at all).
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Post by dbutler69 on Jun 2, 2022 9:13:30 GMT -5
I am into both the promos and the in-ring stuff. I love Mr Perfect, Rick Rude, Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Ted DiBiase, Randy Savage, and Jerry Lawyer at least as much for their personalities as for their in-ring skills. The Undertaker was cool, too. Great gimmick and a good wrestler for such a big guy. I also loved the Rockers and Fabulous Rougeaus as two of the most exciting tag teams. The Hart Foundation was really good, too. Bret Hart is an excellent wrestler, but he never really pulled my in too much in the charisma department, though he's not bad in that area, just not as cool as some of my favorite wrestlers.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2022 12:46:37 GMT -5
I am into both the promos and the in-ring stuff. I love Mr Perfect, Rick Rude, Roddy Piper, Ric Flair, Dusty Rhodes, Ted DiBiase, Randy Savage, and Jerry Lawyer at least as much for their personalities as for their in-ring skills. The Undertaker was cool, too. Great gimmick and a good wrestler for such a big guy. I also loved the Rockers and Fabulous Rougeaus as two of the most exciting tag teams. The Hart Foundation was really good, too. Bret Hart is an excellent wrestler, but he never really pulled my in too much in the charisma department, though he's not bad in that area, just not as cool as some of my favorite wrestlers. For me, and I suspect I’m not alone, it’s a variety show. I would have no desire to watch a WWE card consisting of wall-to-wall technical encounters, nor would I want wall-to-wall brawling, either. I want variety. This Sunday I want to see Omos and Bobby Lashley clash like two giants, but I’ll also appreciate any technical acumen between Seth Rollins and Cody Rhodes. As a kid, I could appreciate the technical acumen of Bret Hart and Ricky Steamboat while also enjoying the monster stuff from the likes of Andre the Giant and the Warlord. I think it’s great when a wrestler has both technical acumen and a larger-than-life personality, but sometimes one or the other is fine. What Bret may have lacked in charisma (relatively speaking), well the technical stuff was tremendous. Big John Studd wasn’t going to do many Greco-Roman moves, but I enjoyed seeing him be the monster he was. I just get annoyed by workrate snobs (wrestling ‘journalists’ and the like) who dismiss the likes of Omos, Andre the Giant and the Bushwhackers, to name three, just because there aren’t many traditional wrestling holds. I guess if writing about five-star ratings is a journalist’s thing, though, then they’re too joyless to just watch a giant or two.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2022 13:07:10 GMT -5
P.S. If anyone has any views on whether the Rock is the GOAT of WWF/E (previous page), feel free. After his write-up, John Cena is next.
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Post by commond on Jun 2, 2022 19:04:00 GMT -5
I watched Rock's ascension from Nation of Domination member to main eventer in real time. It was a meteoric rise and exciting to watch. It was mostly based on his catchphrases and charisma, and then the work came along with it later. He was one of those guys who benefitted from the influx of WCW talent in '99-00, as the WCW guys raised the overall level of wrestling in the WWF and Rock definitely improved by working with the likes of Benoit and Jericho. Rock became a very good WWF worker. Not perfect in every aspect, but good at working the WWF main event style. Then he outgrew the stadiums and became a Hollywood star. His various returns to the WWE brought diminishing returns to me. He would have been better if he'd worked a heavier schedule instead of one-off PPV matches, but he was clearly there to cash a check. Can't say it moved the needle for me, but it showed he could rock up and still be a superstar every time he set foot in the ring. I don't buy the argument that he was second fiddle to Austin. They were two great superstars who turned business around at the same time. When Austin went down with injuries, Rock more than carried the ball. Personally, I think he belongs on the WWE Mt. Rushmore beside Bruno, Hogan and Austin. I'm not sure if there's a sentiment against him because he left the business, but that was obviously a brilliant decision on his part.
Bret was charismatic! And involved in one of the all-time great heel turns in '97. American badass Undertaker was a bit of a shock when it first happened, but it led to some great matches. That Hell in a Cell match with Lesnar is a favorite of mine.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 2, 2022 19:15:25 GMT -5
Yes, it was fun to watch the Rock’s rise in real time.
As for him leaving the business, I hated how some fans criticised that. Wouldn’t we all do the same? If I’d been a successful wrestler that had been offered a gig in Hollywood, I’d have been on the first plane. Good luck to him, then and now.
Not sure what might happen if he returns. The Rock VS Roman Reigns rumours refuse to die. I can’t say I have a yearning for that match. I like Rock, and I like Reigns. I just don’t have a desire to see that match, not because of the match itself (which I’m sure would be great), but because there are so many current wrestlers I’d rather see given a shot at Reigns.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 2, 2022 22:13:16 GMT -5
Couple of wrestling related deaths: Tarzan Goto (Seiji Goto) passed away, at age 58, from liver cancer. Goto started out in sumo, in 1979; but, didn't last long. He was trained for pro wrestling by Jumbo Tsuruta and began in All-Japan, in 1981 and was named Rookie of the Year, in 1983, by Tokyo Sports. He was sent to the US, for seasoning, in 1985, and worked in the Kansas City territory, under Bob Geigel's ownership (with partners Harley Race and Bulldog Bob Brown) and under Crockett, after they sold to him. He then moved to Memphis to work for Jarrett & Lawler. In 1988, he went to work for the World Wrestling Council, in Puerto Rico, and the Professional Wrestling Federation (the last attempt at reviving the Florida territory, under Dusty), in Florida. He returned to Japan in 1989, after marrying female wrestler Despina Montagas. Back in Japan, he joined Atsushi Onita in launching Frontier Martial-Arts Wrestling (FMW) which pioneered the garbage matches that would come to dominate the early to mid 90s, in Japan's indie world (following proto matches done in both All-Japan and New Japan). Goto and Onita faced each other in the first "exploding barbed wire" match. He was Onita's main rival and occasional partner, until he left the promotion, in 1995. He also worked for IWA Japan and promoted his own shows, as Super FMW, for two separate promotional runs. His last match was in 2018. Also passing away is Melanie Pillman, widow of Flyin' Brian Pillman and mother of Brian Pillman Jr..... Pillman was seen on WWF tv, when they did the Steve Austin home invasion angle, where Pillman is waving a gun around and the screen goes out with a gunshot. Later, when Pillman was found dead in his hotel room, the WWF did a rather tasteless on-air interview with the obviously grieving woman, just a day or so after being alerted about his death. Melanie Pillman had substance abuse issues, which affected her relationship with her son and they were estranged, for a while, before starting to make amends in conjunction with Dark Side of the Ring's episode, devoted to Brian Pillman. She spoke openly of her drug use and how it destroyed her life and damaged her relationship with her children. It took a physical toll on her and is related to her passing. Brian Jr described her as his biggest fan and she followed him on his social media feeds and would interact with fans, sharing stories of Flyin' Brian and young Brian Jr.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 2, 2022 22:38:11 GMT -5
I know you guys are more WWE fans, but what did you think of the MJF stuff over the weekend/Monday. Seems like at this point it must be a work.. not sure yet how I feel about it. Talk about a promo though, man.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 10:59:23 GMT -5
I know you guys are more WWE fans, but what did you think of the MJF stuff over the weekend/Monday. Seems like at this point it must be a work.. not sure yet how I feel about it. Talk about a promo though, man. It definitely feels like its blurring the lines between work and reality. I think AEW does that at times.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 3, 2022 11:21:56 GMT -5
Okay, the final entry in that magazine’s GOAT article. Here’s the writer’s views on John Cena:
The writer’s pros and cons:
You know, Cena took the ball and ran with it. He reached for that brass ring (to use McMahon’s term). He worked hard. He was, as the writer stated, a great ambassador for WWE. He seemed tireless in every way, and although I can’t know his mindset intimately, it did feel like he never rested on his laurels.
I like Hogan but he did phone it in at times, returning just for a nostalgia boost. Yet last summer, Cena wrestled Roman Reigns a SummerSlam. He hadn’t lost a step, and from my fan perspective, he worked his socks off in that match. If Hogan was able to work a match now, I wonder, would he have wanted a win over Reigns? Cena was selfless in that match.
There may well be a case for Cena being a contender for the GOAT (subjective though it is) based on having al the personal and professional qualities one needs to be a champion.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Jun 3, 2022 21:27:32 GMT -5
I don't think Cena can be the GOAT without having a heel run. That's not his fault (since he had to be the poster boy), but I feel like you can't be the greatest without playing both sides at some point.
That said, how amazing would it be for them to let Cena do his heel run NOW?
I think the GOAT is Hogan.. he's not a good man or a good worker, but he was an unbelievable showman. I don't think wrestling survives in the modern era without him. I do this it's arguable, and I could be convinced to go with Rock, Jericho, Austin or even HHH on a different day.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2022 3:18:36 GMT -5
I had similar thoughts about Cena turning heel. Could be like capturing lightning in a bottle again, replicating Hogan’s 1996 heel turn? It would open up a world of possibilities.
Joyless “I take wrestling too seriously” former Power Slam editor Findlay Martin once dismissed the idea, saying it’d affect Cena’s merchandise sales. Martin has never been right about anything. I seem to remember WWF catalogues in WWF Magazine showcasing heel merchandise. Does Cena even move the needle merchandise-wise now? Couldn’t it be argued that a heel Cena might shift new merchandise?
Gotta love some wrestling journalists: always wrong about things. 🙄
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Post by commond on Jun 4, 2022 4:54:11 GMT -5
Cena, to me, feels like the last star who got over in a totally organic way. He was a guy who was about to be cut from the company but managed to get himself over with his own gimmick and skyrocketed from there. Unfortunately, in the corporate era of the WWE, this type of thing doesn't happen anymore as the WWE tends to play it safe rather than take risks. There's even an argument, in some circles, that the WWE doesn't want to create stars that are bigger than the brand. I wasn't watching the WWE when Cena first took off. I went back and watched a lot of matches for various polls I participated in (Greatest Wrestler Ever, Greatest WWE Match Ever, etc.), and I fell somewhere in the middle between the Cena haters and Cena fans. There were matches of his I really liked (vs Umaga, vs. Punk at MITB), and some matches that I thought were overrated like the Lesnar matches. I didn't really love the later period work where he tried to use a lot of indy moves. I can understand why he did it since he wanted to prove he could wrestle that way, but it made him seem less special. I'm a big hip hop fan, but his gimmick never appealed to me. I like his theme music, though. I would probably put Cena in the same tier as Bret and Shawn.
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