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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 18, 2019 21:39:12 GMT -5
ot some of my facts out of skw, above. Ole did the Black Scorpion thing in 1990, when he was booker, under Herd, after Flair quit the job. Kip Frey was a Turner Broadcasting legal executive, who was in the job for only a few months, between when Herd was gone until Watts came on board. Frey was the one who re-established a relationship with the NWA Board (which didn't really consist of much, other than ownership of the name and the World title), and set in motion the tournament to crown new NWA World Tag-team champions (though those were Crockett regional titles, originally, not NWA Board-run belts). The NWA World title was re-introduced in New Japan, with an arrangement with WCW to co-promote and trade the title. Watts inherited that, though he didn't like the idea. Things went south and the NWA pulled the use of the title and their name, which is why they did that stupid WCW International World Title, since they had been building towards Flair unifying the WCW and NWA titles.
The Black Scorpion thing was a hash of ideas; but it was Ole's angle. Ole did the voice that was used for the tv angles and was also under the robe. If you listen closely to it, you can make out Ole's inflections and speech patterns. Dave Sheldon, who had trained with Steve Borden, under Rick Bassman, was working in WCW and played the Scorpion on some house shows, as, supposedly, did a wrestler named Jack Ellis. Perez played him on the Clash of Champions, where Sting was about to unmask him, when other Scorpions sow up. According to Flair, Perez wa supposed to be the ultimate reveal, but quit before the final resolution was booked, supposedly because he was going to lose. perez has claimed he was going to be made champion and they were going to build around him as a the star, which is hogwash. He couldn't draw in Texas, for World Class and was never much anywhere else (he had worked for Crockett, and for Dusty in the revived Florida promotion, and worked for Global, after WCW; but never drew a dime). I don't think Ole knew what the hell he was going to do with it. I suspect Perez was stuck in there when some other idea fell through and then they were going to go the rest of the way, when he flaked out and Flair got stuck with it. The problem was that Sting wasn't drawing as Champion and they needed to get the belt off of him, which is why Flair got stuck in there.
It started out as something different, which was good; but, it never seemed to progress and then it just dragged on and on. It got really ridiculous when they brought in the magician to do some illusions, as the Scorpion. I think someone had spiked Ole's beer with WWF Kool Aid.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 8:46:47 GMT -5
Favourite WWF match of all time? How could one begin to answer that, eh?
There's the obvious choices such as Bret VS Owen (WM X), Shawn's two ladder matches with Razor, Steamboat VS Savage (WM III), etc, etc.
There are no doubt non-PPV matches. I quite like the Bret/Owen match from WWF Action Zone. Shawn Michaels had an excellent match with Shelton Benjamin on Raw.
But I'm going to go out on a limb: Roddy Piper VS Rick Rude in a Steel Cage Match (December 28th, 1989). I first saw this when Coliseum Video released WWF Super Heroes. That's probably my favourite WWF match of all time.
It's heated. It's competitive. Both men get the chance to shine. And, most importantly, it's unpredictable. Both men go all out to win this one. At times, it looks like Rude may be headed for victory, especially as Piper is semi-knocked out. At other times, with Rude bleeding, it looks like Piper is headed for victory. You don't know how it'll go. And Bobby Heenan is out there as a "wild card", plotting and planning.
Truly a classic!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 9:52:30 GMT -5
To me, I have three (all on equal terms) matches that I considered the BEST of the Best.
1) Triple H vs the Undertaker in Hell in the Cell in Wrestlemania 28
2) Shawn Michaels vs the Undertaker in Wrestlemania 25
3) Randy Savage vs Ricky (The Dragon) Steamboat for the IC Championship in Wrestlemania 3
Honorable Mentions
1) Razor Ramon vs Shawn Michaels in Wrestlemania 10
2) Hulk Hogan vs Andre the Giant in Wrestlemania 3
3) Kurt Angle vs Chris Benoit Royal Rumble 2003
4) Road Warriors, Dusty Rhodes, Nikita Koloff, Paul Ellering against the Four Horsemen in War Games at Great American Bash 1987
My all-time Legion of Doom Match ...
Winning the WWF Tag Team titles for the first time at Summerslam 1991 with victory over the Nasty Boys. 30 minutes plus
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 13:20:15 GMT -5
The Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels Ladder Match is another one I think is an underrated classic. It may lack the spots of later ladder bouts, but the psychology is spot-on!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 14:34:01 GMT -5
The Bret Hart/Shawn Michaels Ladder Match is another one I think is an underrated classic. It may lack the spots of later ladder bouts, but the psychology is spot-on! Personally, I think this match is highly underrated and all that; for the long term these two should had never feuded and this is totally screwed Bret Hart career so many times over that Vince McMahon forced Hart out of WWF/WWE because of that Montreal Screwjob making Hart loses to Michaels on his native country. I'm never was a Shawn Michaels fan and never, ever will and he along with Triple H and that hated D'Generation X faction along with X-PAC is one of the worst groups ever. I will never, ever forgive what he did with Marty Jannetty in that Barbershop moment and I hated all his signature moves and all that. He and Triple H are the worst thing ever happen in WWf/WWE history and I just wished that these two clowns should never wrestled at all. That Ladder Match was indeed a classic and ones of the best in professional wrestling history - but I still think that Bret Hart is being treated unfairly in his career in professional wrestling and to me he is the best technical wrestler that no one ever take for granted. As long Triple H is around he and Stephanie McMahon will screw WWE and I really don't care for WWE anymore and that's why I'm not watching Raw, Smackdown, and NXT at all. Sorry, I'm not a Shawn Michaels fan at all. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 14:52:35 GMT -5
Well, let's remember that the Barber Shop moment is pure kayfabe!
Michaels did have a habit of losing belts without actually being pinned. By my count, there were eight championship losses that didn't involve him getting pinned, whether it be the "losing my smile" speech in early 1997 or being stripped of tag team belts.
But I like him. As an all-rounder, I like him. I voted for him in match of the year ballots in 1993 (Jannetty on Raw), 1994 (WM X), 1995 (SummerSlam), and 1996 (WM XII). That's four consecutive Match of the Year ballots I voted in (PWI). In a UK wrestling magazine poll, I voted for him as wrestler of the year in 1995 and 1996.
As for Montreal, that may well deserve a topic of its own. So much to say about that!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2019 15:20:00 GMT -5
Michaels did have a habit of losing belts without actually being pinned. By my count, there were eight championship losses that didn't involve him getting pinned, whether it be the "losing my smile" speech in early 1997 or being stripped of tag team belts. I have a dear friend (and you are so right) that told me that ... about the habit that he lost belts without being pinned and that's bothers me so much and that's alone to me ... that he loses credibility as a wrestler and remember he is an ultimate showman and that's alone is the part of his charisma and appeal. I just had a hard time dealing with him. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 4:56:53 GMT -5
Does anybody have any idea of the reasons for WrestleMania XI having the LT/Bam Bam Bigelow match in the main event - and promoting it far more than the world title match between Diesel and Shawn Michaels?
At the time, it sees like LT/Bigelow got far more hype and screentime in the build up than the match involving the promotion's world title!
I didn't know who LT was prior to the Royal Rumble 1995. And, to be honest, I didn't care much about the match before, during or after. I certainly cared about Diesel's title defence against Shawn Michaels. Yet that wasn't even the main event.
Was it an attempt to replicate the crossover success of the first WrestleMania? That event at least featured stars that probably had global appeal (Cyndi Lauper, Mr T, Muhammad Ali, Liberace, etc.). With all due respect to LT, none of my friends watching at the time (Britain) knew of him or cared much. LT and Bigelow had a solid bout, but I am bewildered to this day at the reasoning behind it - unless it was about mainstream publicity.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 5:46:03 GMT -5
The Lawrence Taylor and Bam Bam Bigelow feud at that time frame was overhyped and should never, ever started in the first place. Wrestlemania 11 is one of the worst and many of my friends that ordered the PPV felt that they got ripped off on several reasons and that downplayed the match of Diesel and Shawn Michaels. To me, that match LT vs BBB to me was one of the most overhyped match in WWF/WWE history and I think that this match trying to get Bam Bam into main event level and that's backfired on Vince and WWF/WWE Management at the time oF Wrestlemania 11.
I lost all respect for Lawrence Taylor as a person because he did not have his head straight at that time, literally ...
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 6:08:02 GMT -5
Trying to make Bam Bam Bigelow into a main-event player is one thing, but they could and should have done that at one of the In Your House PPVs - and against a wrestler!
I had zero interest in LT/BBB at WM XI.
I'm not puritanical about the world title match having to go on last at every PPV. Personally, I thought Hogan/Rock should have gone on last at WM X8 because Triple H VS Chris Jericho had no chance of following that. So there can be a time for a world title match being a semi-main event. After the exciting Hogan/Rock match, which seemed like a dream encounter at one point, I was deflated for the Triple H/Jericho match.
But I think, where possible, a world title match should go on last. The exception for me was King of the Ring as I felt the KOTR final should be the main event as that is the premise of the PPV. But, bizarrely, Piper/Lawler was the main event at the 1994 event (some stated that was WWF trying to steal thunder from WCW's Hogan/Flair bout, but that logic makes zero sense to me - fans could watch both and they were a month apart).
Speaking of that, I don't know if it's true that the WWF tried to steal thunder from WCW. WWF and WCW had a battle, but Piper/Lawler at KOTR is a completely different entity from Hogan/Flair at Bash at the Beach '94. Were people seriously suggesting that people might order KOTR for Piper/Lawler and then not order the Hogan/Flair PPV? In what way was Piper/Lawler ever going to steal the thunder from Hogan/Flair? I might believe that if the PPVs had aired at the EXACT SAME TIME in the way the first Royal Rumble aired opposite JCP's Bunkhouse Stampede.
But at no time did I treat or perceive Piper/Lawler as competition to Hogan/Flair.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 8:01:35 GMT -5
Speaking of that, I don't know if it's true that the WWF tried to steal thunder from WCW. WWF and WCW had a battle, but Piper/Lawler at KOTR is a completely different entity from Hogan/Flair at Bash at the Beach '94. Were people seriously suggesting that people might order KOTR for Piper/Lawler and then not order the Hogan/Flair PPV? In what way was Piper/Lawler ever going to steal the thunder from Hogan/Flair? I might believe that if the PPVs had aired at the EXACT SAME TIME in the way the first Royal Rumble aired opposite JCP's Bunkhouse Stampede. But at no time did I treat or perceive Piper/Lawler as competition to Hogan/Flair. I really feel that these two matches to viewed as separate matches and have no bearing to the rivalry of both WWF and WCW. At that time ... I HAVE ZERO INTEREST IN THE KING OF THE RING MATCHES back then and even today and those matches aren't my cup of tea. I had more interest in the Bash of the Beach with Hogan and Flair competing and that time was more worthy than the Piper/Lawler KOTR match. Sorry about the negativity of the KOTR. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 8:11:47 GMT -5
Don't be sorry, my friend. We all have our likes. Personally, I was never into hardcore matches. Nor WCW's World War 3 concept.
You're right about those matches having no bearing on each other. They only could have if the PPVs had aired on the same night. I suspect, if that had happened, more would have ordered Hogan/Flair than Piper/Lawler.
There was always competition for dollars, of course. Buy only WWF PPVs and that's 12 a year. Buy WWF and WCW - and that's 24 PPVs a year. So some judgements had to be made. But with a month between KOTR '94 and BATB '94, I fail to understand the hypothesis that Piper/Lawler became a main event to 'steal thunder' from Hogan/Flair.
Playing Devil's advocate, you *might* have had someone who said, "I can order the WWF's June PPV or WCW's July PPV, but I can't order both." How many of those people would there realistically have been, anyway?
And I don't think Piper/Flair would have been a thunder-stealing match. The KOTR concept was still pretty strong then. It became less important as the years went on, but after becoming a PPV in 1993 (it was untelevised before that), there was still enough interest - you aside - from some. So KOTR '94 was a strong card in its own right, plus I'd wager Bret Hart defending the WWF Championship against Diesel would have garnered a few buys, too.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 10:34:54 GMT -5
Regarding PPV's ... I still think less is more. Instead of 12 PPV's, I firmly believe that SIX would be better number to main.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 11:09:29 GMT -5
Totally!
We're on a comic forum. I hated the period when Superman and Spider-Man had 26,456 titles a month. I'm glad Supes has two books a month now (as far as I know).
Same with WWF. Those four PPVs a year were perfect. There was anticipation. After WrestleMania, you had an entire summer to anticipate SummerSlam. After the Royal Rumble aired, you had 8 weeks or more to anticipate WrestleMania. You had time to breathe. Feuds had time to breathe.
Plus, each even felt special. I always hated how there was a February PPV, especially when a Royal Rumble winner might put their opportunity on the line.
"I've won the Royal Rumble, but rather than wait for my shot at the world champion at WrestleMania, I'll just put that shot on the line at a February PPV that few will remember anyway."
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2019 14:09:17 GMT -5
All that WWE needs is the Roya1 (Winter PPV) Rumble, Wrestlemania (Spring PPV), Summerslam (Summer PPV), and War Games (Fall PPV) the Match Beyond.
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