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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 27, 2019 23:06:23 GMT -5
I did a little checking. It appears the DDT originated while Jake was in Mid-Atlantic, in a match with the Grappler (Len Denton). Denton stepped on his foot and Jake fell backwards, while holding a front face lock. He did it again on tv, at least once, in late 1981. He used it in Florida, in 1982, then when he came to Georgia, circa 1983.
Jake was actually booking Georgia, for a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2019 11:19:50 GMT -5
I like how Jake did more with less. He didn't need to do 100 moves in a match to get over. He could do fewer than 10 moves and really get the crowd riled up.
I enjoyed the match he had with Earthquake in London, circa mid-1991. The crowd were really into that. It had fewer moves than some spot-fests we've seen in the modern era, but everything that Jake and 'Quake did meant something and elicited emotion.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2019 16:24:58 GMT -5
I like how Jake did more with less. He didn't need to do 100 moves in a match to get over. He could do fewer than 10 moves and really get the crowd riled up. I enjoyed the match he had with Earthquake in London, circa mid-1991. The crowd were really into that. It had fewer moves than some spot-fests we've seen in the modern era, but everything that Jake and 'Quake did meant something and elicited emotion. Sadly, I don't see much of Jake "The Snake" Roberts and he's one of those rare wrestlers that knows how to get the crowd going in a hurry. I just loved the moment when he pulls out his signature snake out the bag to intimidate his opponent. I liked him a lot. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 28, 2019 19:01:04 GMT -5
Sadly, Jake was and still is a pretty messed up dude. He's sobered up; but, I've heard a lot of stories, from credible sources that he still has a long way to go towards being a human being. Multiple sources say he can be a real jerk at appearances, he still blames his problems on others, rather than his own decisions to escape into drugs and alcohol. One of his supposed friends, wrestler Jerry Grey is battling cancer and was long ago owed money by Jake. Roberts got all kinds of kickstarters for his health problems; but, turned his back on Grey and Jake's daughter then claimed he was pulling a work. Brian Last and Jim Cornette have been able to set up Go Fund Mes to aid Grey
The body may be detoxed; but the spirit isn't yet, until he takes responsibility for his actions.
The reason he owed Grey money? When he had been fired by everyone and was working indies, he would swing around his snake and ended up killing it. Wasn't his snake, though; it was Grey's. When he was working in the UK, in the 00s, he was cited for animal cruelty when it was discovered that he had deliberately neglected his snake and let it die.
I loved Jake's work; but, not very fond of the person.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 28, 2019 19:18:58 GMT -5
In regards with getting a response for doing little, that was a sign of being a worker, before everyone became "spot monkeys." The who art of pro wrestling was doing the right thing, at the right time, for the right reason, and getting the crowd to respond.
Here's an example. When Mr Wrestling II turned on magnum TA, in Mid-South, they were defending the tag titles against the Midnight Express, where the belts were on the line and a whipping of the losers: 5 lashes of a belt each. In the match, TA is in trouble and II just drops down from the apron, shakes hid head and walks away. he doesn't hit him, doesn't shove him into the heels; just walks away. As he is leaving, TA reverses Dennis Condrey into an abdominal stretch. The ref is distracted, telling II to get back to his corner, as he is walking away from the ring. Bobby Eaton jumps in the ring, with Cornette's racket and clobbers TA and Condrey covers for the pin.
II gives the perfect justification: he couldn't teach TA any longer, so he left. It makes perfect sense, from II's point of view. That's how you turn heel. He didn't touch his partner, he just left him to fend and moved on. It's the fans who abandoned him, not vice versa. That is Booking 101 and why Mid-South, from 1981-9185 was better than just about every other promotion in wrestling. Booking was logical, matches were competitive, performers were believable. Even wild antics had a reason to them.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 4:28:58 GMT -5
That does sound very logical.
And that's how I like a heel turn. It made sense the way the Rockers split up. It made perfect sense.
And less is more. Walking away from a match is far better than the alternative: beating the guy with 3 sledgehammers, putting him through 4 tables, ramming a car into him, etc.
Remember when Triple H turned "heel" on Flair in 2005 (odd because they were both heels anyway). It was overkill. He beat on Flair, he dragged him backstage, Flair was bloodied, etc. It was too much for me. Contrast that with, also in 2005, Shawn Michaels' ONE superkick on Hogan - before walking away.
Andre ripping Hogan's crucifix from his chest (on "Piper's Pit") was short, to the point and effective. I suspect some bookers in the modern era would have had him put Hogan through 3 tables, whack him with a sledgehammer 100 times, etc, etc.
Less really is more. That Mr Wrestling II turn on Magnum T.A. is exactly how it should be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 4:37:01 GMT -5
I did have a problem with Vince Russo's twists/turns/ideas. Okay, making himself world champion shocked people. But what did it achieve? What ratings did it draw? What PPV buy rates did it draw? What was the plan?
There wasn't one. It was just to shock people. I used to say that if Russo had written Star Trek, he'd have had Spock "turn heel" on Kirk purely to shock people - and with no plan going forward, before quietly dropping the idea and having Spock back to normal in the next episode.
The heel turns on his watch just seemed to be there to shock people. No logic, no believability, etc. Why turn Goldberg heel? Goldberg had been screwed out of the title in that match with Nash (Starrcade 1998). In 2000, Russo could have booked it so that a more-intense-than-ever Goldberg went on a rampage as a face, trying hard to get a shot at the title he lost. Instead, he turned heel for...well, who knows why? What did that achieve?
It felt like Russo and others, without any long-term thinking, woke up one day and said, "Who can we turn heel this week? How can we shock people?" And that was it. Absolutely no long-term plan going forward!
The face/heel turns I saw as a kid did have a logic. It made logical sense to me when Jimmy Hart turned face in 1993. Dastardly though he was, you could believe that, as a human being, he thought Money Inc. were going too far in hammering Brutus Beefcake's face. In any work of fiction, a person can find redemption - look at Darth Vader - so it made sense for Hart to do that. It made sense for Undertaker to become an anti-heroic force of nature after Jake Roberts went too far against Savage and Elizabeth. It made sense for the Natural Disasters to turn face after Jimmy Hart stabbed them in the back and gave Money Inc. his time/expertise.
On the heel turn side, it made sense for a resentful Hogan to be the third man. It made sense for Bret Hart to disown the fans in '97, at least those in the United States. It made sense for an increasingly cocky Shawn Michaels to disown Marty Jannetty and go his own way. It made sense for Tugboat to turn heel, I remember the story at the time being that Jimmy Hart had got to Tugboat and convinced him that teaming with Earthquake to make money was better than them continually feuding.
Like or love those moments, and our mileage varies, I don't think anyone can question the logic of those things. Logic was the keyword.
I don't think Russo understood that wrestling should have followed the laws of logic. If I switch on a detective drama, and a detective gradually becomes corrupt, perhaps due to financial pressures, it has to make sense. But if the detective simply appears in one episode, and hooks up with criminals for no apparent reason, that isn't logical.
Russo didn't get that! For him, a heel turn was fine in and of itself.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 10:28:10 GMT -5
I did have a problem with Vince Russo's twists/turns/ideas. Okay, making himself world champion shocked people. But what did it achieve? What ratings did it draw? What PPV buy rates did it draw? What was the plan? There wasn't one. It was just to shock people. I used to say that if Russo had written Star Trek, he'd have had Spock "turn heel" on Kirk purely to shock people - and with no plan going forward, before quietly dropping the idea and having Spock back to normal in the next episode. The heel turns on his watch just seemed to be there to shock people. No logic, no believability, etc. Why turn Goldberg heel? Goldberg had been screwed out of the title in that match with Nash ( Starrcade 1998). In 2000, Russo could have booked it so that a more-intense-than-ever Goldberg went on a rampage as a face, trying hard to get a shot at the title he lost. Instead, he turned heel for...well, who knows why? What did that achieve? It felt like Russo and others, without any long-term thinking, woke up one day and said, "Who can we turn heel this week? How can we shock people?" And that was it. Absolutely no long-term plan going forward! The face/heel turns I saw as a kid did have a logic. It made logical sense to me when Jimmy Hart turned face in 1993. Dastardly though he was, you could believe that, as a human being, he thought Money Inc. were going too far in hammering Brutus Beefcake's face. In any work of fiction, a person can find redemption - look at Darth Vader - so it made sense for Hart to do that. It made sense for Undertaker to become an anti-heroic force of nature after Jake Roberts went too far against Savage and Elizabeth. It made sense for the Natural Disasters to turn face after Jimmy Hart stabbed them in the back and gave Money Inc. his time/expertise. On the heel turn side, it made sense for a resentful Hogan to be the third man. It made sense for Bret Hart to disown the fans in '97, at least those in the United States. It made sense for an increasingly cocky Shawn Michaels to disown Marty Jannetty and go his own way. It made sense for Tugboat to turn heel, I remember the story at the time being that Jimmy Hart had got to Tugboat and convinced him that teaming with Earthquake to make money was better than them continually feuding. Like or love those moments, and our mileage varies, I don't think anyone can question the logic of those things. Logic was the keyword. I don't think Russo understood that wrestling should have followed the laws of logic. If I switch on a detective drama, and a detective gradually becomes corrupt, perhaps due to financial pressures, it has to make sense. But if the detective simply appears in one episode, and hooks up with criminals for no apparent reason, that isn't logical. Russo didn't get that! For him, a heel turn was fine in and of itself. I read this twice and I just have a hard time dealing with Vince Russo and to me he is one of many reasons why I don't care about him and to me ... he is the worst thing ever happen in Professional Wrestling History Period. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 29, 2019 19:18:31 GMT -5
Russo was fixated on Jerry Springer and that was his template for tv. He didn't think long term because he was an ADD-addled moron, who couldn't think past 20 minutes+commercials. Seriously. Cornette talks about it; Russo and Ed Ferrara were both obsessed with Jerry Springer and they were just trying to do crash tv. They figured the audience didn't have an attention span because they didn't. They couldn't even construct a half hour that built to a conclusion. The ironic thing was that Springer was a complete work, just like wrestling. They actually used several wrestlers to do stories on that show, without identifying them as wrestlers.
Cornette has had a lot of rants lately that point out the weaknesses of modern wrestling tv, which pretty much started in the Monday Night Wars era. Presentation used to be sports oriented, which meant having a certain logic to the competition. Referees acted like real officials and the heel had to pull stuff behind their back. The mark of a good heel was to be able to cheat within the rules(chokng on the ropes but breaking on the count of 4, etc). Refs were told if the boys got lazy and their shoulders were on the mat to count them out. Announcers called the matches like a competition, rather than talking endlessly about backstage skits or angles from other parts of the show. They were focused on what was happening in the ring.
Wrestlers dressed (mostly) like wrestlers. The gimmicks were the rare added feature, not half the card. He also pointed out when it was presented that way, you had a wide spectrum of people in the audience, from kids to seniors, men and women; grandmas and grandkids. Now, you get teens to mid-30s, fewerer women, few seniors and, in most cases, kids have no good right to be there. The WWE points their cameras a certain way and wrestlers ae trained to never look at the camera but always work towards it;. They aren't working for the crowd. They don't look into the camera to make a point and they have to act like morons in backstage skits, ignoring a camera crew spying on their machinations.
Guys like Russo understand none of that and everything they touch fails. People will watch A car crash, they won't watch it for 2-3 hours, week in and week out. People will watch sports.
Corny talked about how he did tv for SMW, VW and ROH; he didn't have guys working rest holds during commercial breaks; they kept the match going. He would feed into the break with the action, then have them pick up on a move, to keep the energy pumped up when the show was back on tv. That keeps the viewer interested and watching, so they don't stray during commercial breaks. Mid-South did that, Memphis did that, Mid-Atlantic, Florida, Georgia all did that.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 19:24:34 GMT -5
Russo was fixated on Jerry Springer and that was his template for tv. He didn't think long term because he was an ADD-addled moron, who couldn't think past 20 minutes+commercials. Seriously. Cornette talks about it; Russo and Ed Ferrara were both obsessed with Jerry Springer and they were just trying to do crash tv. They figured the audience didn't have an attention span because they didn't. They couldn't even construct a half hour that built to a conclusion. The ironic thing was that Springer was a complete work, just like wrestling. They actually used several wrestlers to do stories on that show, without identifying them as wrestlers. Cornette has had a lot of rants lately that point out the weaknesses of modern wrestling tv, which pretty much started in the Monday Night Wars era. Presentation used to be sports oriented, which meant having a certain logic to the competition. Referees acted like real officials and the heel had to pull stuff behind their back. The mark of a good heel was to be able to cheat within the rules(chokng on the ropes but breaking on the count of 4, etc). Refs were told if the boys got lazy and their shoulders were on the mat to count them out. Announcers called the matches like a competition, rather than talking endlessly about backstage skits or angles from other parts of the show. They were focused on what was happening in the ring. Wrestlers dressed (mostly) like wrestlers. The gimmicks were the rare added feature, not half the card. He also pointed out when it was presented that way, you had a wide spectrum of people in the audience, from kids to seniors, men and women; grandmas and grandkids. Now, you get teens to mid-30s, fewerer women, few seniors and, in most cases, kids have no good right to be there. The WWE points their cameras a certain way and wrestlers ae trained to never look at the camera but always work towards it;. They aren't working for the crowd. They don't look into the camera to make a point and they have to act like morons in backstage skits, ignoring a camera crew spying on their machinations. Guys like Russo understand none of that and everything they touch fails. People will watch A car crash, they won't watch it for 2-3 hours, week in and week out. People will watch sports. Corny talked about how he did tv for SMW, VW and ROH; he didn't have guys working rest holds during commercial breaks; they kept the match going. He would feed into the break with the action, then have them pick up on a move, to keep the energy pumped up when the show was back on tv. That keeps the viewer interested and watching, so they don't stray during commercial breaks. Mid-South did that, Memphis did that, Mid-Atlantic, Florida, Georgia all did that. Bravo, Cody ... this is right on the nose. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 19:28:09 GMT -5
Corny talked about how he did tv for SMW, VW and ROH; he didn't have guys working rest holds during commercial breaks; they kept the match going. He would feed into the break with the action, then have them pick up on a move, to keep the energy pumped up when the show was back on tv. That keeps the viewer interested and watching, so they don't stray during commercial breaks. Mid-South did that, Memphis did that, Mid-Atlantic, Florida, Georgia all did that.
Cody, when you wrote that last paragraph ... it hits me like a ton of bricks. I missed that in the old days of serious fans kept interested in pro wrestling and all that.
Man, this is something that's sorely missing these days.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 29, 2019 22:18:37 GMT -5
Wrestling used to be an all ages kind of thing. You got a lot of old men and women, lots of kids, moms & dads. Forget that smoke filled arena garbage the WWE propagandizes. Corny talked about people having regular seats, like at the Mid-South Colosseum, in Memphis. he talked about old timers telling him to get out of the way, when he was a teenage photographer, at the matches. He recently talked about OVW tv, when he was running it, vs when Paul Heyman took over. Heyman moved some of the old timers around so he could shoot the younger people in the crowd and ticked off regulars, to where they stopped coming out. He made things more like WWE tv and the ratings dropped. It ticked off his partner, Danny Davis to no end. Most of that is Kevin Dunn, who is probably the most powerful person in the WWE, aside from the McMahons and HHH.
In the territory days, you used to see all kinds of old ladies shaking canes and umbrellas and bony fingers at the heels, while old men were often the really dangerous ones. Wrestlers used to play with fans like that to really get them riled up, which would get everyone else around them going. Corny talked about the noise level in arenas, which was massive. People cheered or jeered throughout a match, from the entrances through the final bell.
These days, fans will pop for the big moves, then sith there like Japanese crowds, waiting for the next big move. They will get lively if a tv camera is on them and not when it isn't. The do chants to entertain themselves, since the wrestling isn't pulling them in, because they aren't telling a story, just putting on a stunt show.
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Post by codystarbuck on Sept 29, 2019 22:40:28 GMT -5
ps Speaking of the Monday Night Wars, you knew when Vince went nuts, when Hall & Nash went to WCW. Someone put the bug in his ear that he still owned the names Razor Ramon and diesel. So, he decreed that they would appear on WWF tv again. Razor was given to young wrestler Rick Bognar, while Diesel was given to the former Dr Isaac Yankem, Glen Jacobs, aca Unabomb (in Smokey Mountain), aka Kane, one he got rid of the stupid gimmicks.   Jim Cornette was tasked with teaching them to work like Hall and Nash and he studied tapes, which revealed that Nash had only 6 moves, one of which was flipping his hair up.... (Definitely NSFW) Jim Ross got stuck with debuting them, in his supposed heel turn (which was quickly abandoned). It sank like a lead Titanic and Bognar was let go, though he ended up in New Japan as Big Titan (as in Titan Towers, the HQ of the WWE, and the old name Titan Sports Inc.) He was just found dead, in his home, by his brother, as posted on facebook, a day or two ago. Glen Jacobs got to be Kane and finally be a big deal. He is now mayor of Knox County, TN (though don't get me started on his political views). Sadly, that looked credible next to some of the stupid crap that would follow, with Russo (like Mae Young giving birth to a rubber hand, the attempted castration of Val Venis, etc...), though they did just as stupid things after he was gone (Katie Vick, among others). Russo didn't destroy WCW; but, he was the final nail in the coffin and set it on an unrecoverable course. He was responsible for the really abysmal crap at TNA (and the stupid name), though Dixie Carter proved even dumber than Vinnie. Corny has the most fun with Russo, when he isn't threatening to kill him with rusty fishhooks. Russo spouted garbage on his podcast, which led to a rebuttal from Corny, that led Russo to take out a protection order in the state of Indiana. Corny doesn't live in Indian (Kentucky, actually) and had no clue where Russo's house even was. He did a rather scathing satire of the order, making a phony apologizing for so terrorizing Russo, which just makes Russo look like a cringing coward. He kept referring to Russo as the "little fella," like he was a 4 year-old who had a bad dream. Corny then turned around and started selling autographed copies of the order on his website. So, he got the last laugh, as Russo incurred court costs to file the order, for a non-existent threat, while Corny makes money by selling copies to has vastly larger number of fans (and donates the money to a children's charity he and his family have been involved i, for decades). |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 29, 2019 23:56:02 GMT -5
You gotta to be kidding me that Jim Cornette was teaching those clowns how to be fake Razor Ramon and fake Diesel!
This is the nuttiest thing that I've ever read in this thread.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2019 4:07:36 GMT -5
I'm reminded of three ABSURD things Russo said in the shoot interview.
Firstly, when talking about the reality of wrestling, he mentioned how people being able to see the Iraq War live meant that why would people watch scripted entertainment when there's so much reality on TV. PATHETIC. Live reporting from a warzone and scripted, escapist entertainment are two different things.
He talked about how Standards and Practices made it hard for him, e.g. he couldn't have Roddy Piper insulting fat women. Hmm, can anyone tell me how not being able to do that affected a WRESTLING show? He should have tried to write a wrestling show rather than something juvenile.
There was also a comment, although I can't be sure it took place during that shoot interview, where he mentioned the attention span of the audience - and how the minute a match starts, people want to know the ending, and people are keen to switch over. Or some crap. Truth is, there are some of us who do have an attention span. Razor Ramon and Marty Jannetty had a match against Diesel and Shawn Michaels that must have lasted around 20 minutes - or more. It was fairly long. People like me enjoyed that. I also remember Shawn Michaels had a near-20 minute match with Ted DiBiase on WWF TV around 1990. If Russo had been booking back then, I guess he'd have wrapped those matches up within 5 minutes because he presumed everyone else had a short attention span - and so that we could get to an inane angle.
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