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Post by driver1980 on Nov 15, 2023 7:48:55 GMT -5
I missed the anniversary, but a little over thirty years ago, UFC 1 aired on PPV: ![](https://i.imgur.com/V5PHMZV.jpg) I have this on DVD somewhere. So different in many respects from what UFC is now. Am I right in remembering that only gouging, biting and low blows were outlawed, everything else goes? I do remember reading media reports on how brutal this was. Didn’t one state (New York?) try and ban this?
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 15, 2023 15:22:06 GMT -5
I missed the anniversary, but a little over thirty years ago, UFC 1 aired on PPV: ![](https://i.imgur.com/V5PHMZV.jpg) I have this on DVD somewhere. So different in many respects from what UFC is now. Am I right in remembering that only gouging, biting and low blows were outlawed, everything else goes? I do remember reading media reports on how brutal this was. Didn’t one state (New York?) try and ban this? Not quite. The first one started as "no rules;" but, that started changing during the first meeting. Shoes were outlawed, and they agreed to no eye gouges. Not sure about biting. Low blows were allowed but no one tried it, in the first one. They recently broadcast a roundtable, with the living participants in that first tournament.... Originally, the Gracie family was wanting it to be Rickson; but, either he didn't want to do it or he had other commitments. Rickson was the most accomplished fighter and had recently embarrassed Japanese pro wrestler Yoji Anjo, when he came to the Gracie dojo, in California, to challenge Rickson, after he turned down an offer to fight for UWFI. Anjo brought cameras along and was deluded into thinking he was a real fighter, despite doing worked fights in UWF, Fuji-Wara Gumi and UWFI. Rickson took him down and dominated him, just pounding on him, though Anjo wouldn't tap; so, Rickson choked him out. Royce was substituted in the tournament, which was promoted by Rorion Gracie, along with Art Davies. John Milius was a consultant on staging the fights and he suggested the 8-sided cage, based on the gladiator pit, in Conan The Barbarian. There was a lot of behind-the-scenes wrangling at the first one and the second, as the Gracie's determined who was in and who wasn't and they were very protective of Royce. The first mat was very soft and the strikers had a lot of problems trying to fight on it. The second tournament and a stiffer mat, as did all subsequent, to make it more even footing for strikers. Several of the people involved, in the early days, had no real fight background and their "arts" were often BS. Kimo Leopoldo had done some wrestling, in high school, but had no martial arts training. Jo Son Do was made up nonsense, by his manager, Joe Son, who had been a wrestler, and was later convicted of rape and murder. I started watching with the third, after buying a magazine that covered the first two and the fighters. It was where I first heard the term "shoot fighting," and started searching for info on that, before eventually finding more info about the "shoot" promotions in Japan. I was vaguely aware of the first UWF, as it got a little mention in PWI; but, they didn't cover the others until the UWFI vs New Japan feud, which inspired the NWO angle. Shamrock was actually the fighter the Gracie's were most wary of, since they knew he was a grappler and Pancrase was doing legit fights (with some works to build guys up). The rest knew nothing about grappling, other than Gordeau, who had done some worked fights for New Japan. Pat Smith, a tang soo do practitioner, had been pretty mouthy and ticked off Shamrock, so he was determined to school him and took him down to the mat and slapped on a heel hook and had him screaming to give up. That is part of why you see Shamrock not move away, after the ref calls for the bell. Smith threw a kick towards Shamrock, after he got up, and Shamrock was still raring to pound on him. The ref missed Shamrock's tap, in his fight with Royce and Shamrock was ready to continue, when Royce started yelling that Shamrock tapped and said it to Shamrock. To his credit, Shamrock admitted that he tapped and the fight was given to Royce. They intended the third to be a rematch; but, Shamrock was injured in training and had to sit it out. They interviewed him on air, for the tournament, to set up a rematch in the next one. Shamrock vs Gracie became their first marquee fight, though their rematch proved to be boring as hell, as neither wanted to lose, so no one really had much offense. Shamrock would get his first major win over an over-confident Dan Severn, who didn't know submission and left himself open for a guillotine choke. By the time they met again, Severn had some training and used his superior wrestling technique and knowledge to block Shamrock and you had another long dance, with Severn only getting the decision because he drew some blood on Shamrock. Low blows were allowed for a while and were most on display in the fight between kenpo fighter Keith Hackney and all-around POS Joe Son.... Royce would go on to lose a sport jiujitsu match, before losing to Sakuraba, in the Pride Gran Prix, in their 90 minute bout, with no time limit and no ref stoppage.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 15, 2023 16:24:18 GMT -5
ps The sponsor of UFC 1 pulled out of future deals, after the card was so brutal (mostly Gordeau vs Tei Tuli, where he knocked his tooth out, but also Zane Frazer vs Kevin Rozier).The UFC was around a few years before John McCain went on a crusade and got them kicked off of some PPV outlets (and McCain was a boxing fan who ignored boxing's far greater number of injuries and multiple deaths). New York banned MMA style fights; but, ultimately, once the UFC got sanctioning in Nevada, New York and other states followed. The promotion who had the worst time of the political battles was the rival Extreme Fighting Championship, who had venues pulled out from under them and had to switch one card to a native American reservation, where a state ban had no jurisdiction.
There were a few rivals, but the EFC lasted the longest. The most ridiculous one was the World Combat Championships, which was co-promoted by Chris peters, son of Jon Peters, of the Superman and Batman films. They had a striker and a grappler division, then the winners of each division met for the final. The idea was to give strikers a chance to have more exciting fights and the strikers were not allowed to grapple, on the mat and no submission, even though grapplers were allowed to fight on their feet and ground-and-pound. Renzo Gracie won that one, without too much of a sweat, though he rubbed it in on Dutch fighter Ben Spijkers. Spijkers had vowed to rape Renzo, at a press conference and Renzo took it personally and decided to show up the arrogant Dutchman and then stepped on his neck, as he was declared the winner, to show his contempt. Spijkers had a reputation of being a thug and he was true to form. Peters had actually gotten a couple of K-1 fighters to agree to fight, until K-1 learned that it was a No Holds Barred tournament and blocked their participation. Rickson Gracie was too costly, which led Peters to Renzo, who had appeared in Black Belt magazine, in an ad. Kathy Kidd, who had been involved romantically with Art Davie, of the UFC, was involved in promoting this and was dating the editor of Black Belt magazine, who helped promote it, featuring Renzo and Bart Vale on the cover.
Bart Vale was built up as this legendary fighter, in Japan, who had wins over Ken Shamrock and was the World Shootfighting Association champion. What they failed to point out was that the wins over Shamrock were in worked fights, in Fujiwara Gumi (after the second UWF broke apart) and that his "world title," was the old Fujiwara Gumi title, held by Yoshiaki Fujiwara, who ran Fujiwara Gumi. He dropped the title to Vale, in the US, on a card that was promoted by Vale, in a worked fight, which was done under the World Shootfighting Association name. The organization was just a marketing brand for Vale to promote fights and sell videos and other stuff, to gullible idiots. Vale was exposed as a fraud, when he had trouble submitting a kid from Hawaii, with no real fight experience beyond tough man contests (which was Shamrock's experience, before Pancrase, besides training and working in pro wrestling, under Nelson Royal, as Vince Torelli). Vale had the kid in a keylock, but was unable to get a submission out of him and finally, after several minutes, got an arm triangle choke on him and he tapped. Vale was banged up and exhausted and pulled out of the tournament, so Gracie fought a substitute. Vale later entered the EFC and got his @$$ handed to him by Kazunari Murakami, who had trained in MMA and pro wrestling. He lost another fight to Dan Severn and a K-1 bout to Andy Hug. His defeat of Bitonio, the kid in the WCC, was his only real victory in professional fighting.
A lot of us who watched and learned more about his background felt Vale pulled out of the tournament not because of lacerations to his head, as claimed, but to having seen Renzo defeat Spijkers so easily and his inability to submit Bitonio, until he got the choke.
Renzo Gracie was the best all-around fighter of the Gracie family (he's the son of Carlson Gracie, brother of Helio, who is the father of Roycke, Rickson, Rorion and Royler Gracie). Rickson won vale tudo matches in Brazil and two Japan Vale Tudo tournaments; but, in fights that were set up to favor grapplers and he still had problems with wrestler Yuki Nakai. Rickson ducked challenges from several fighters, most notably Kazushi Sakuraba and ony fought in Pride against pro wrestlers, with no shoot experience, like Nobuhiku Takada. He defeated Takada and they had a rematch, where Takada was better prepared, but still lost. He ducked fights with Sakuraba and Akira Maeda; and, instead, signed to face Maskatsu Funaki, of Pancrase, but demanded headbutts and elbow strikes be banned. He got his way, but had problems with Funaki's grappling skill, but an injury gave Rickson the advantage and he was able to ground and pound Funaki.
Pride did some worked fights, particularly to build and protect Takada. The Gracie's, outside the UFC, requested special rules for their fights, except Renzo, who would fight under tournament rules. Helio's side was very protective of their name, as they used it to promote their schools and brand, while the Carlson side was more willing to fight on equal terms and prove their mettle. Renzo also won the Martial Arts reality Superfight, defeating Oleg Taktarov, a former UFC champion, to win. Renzo knocked Taktarov out with a heel kick to the face, after a takedown attempt. You could see Taktarov's lights go out and then the ref stopped the fight. Renzo also fought in Pride, against Sakuraba, without special rules and lost, but was a good sport about it. When Royler lost to him Rorion and the rest of the family made a big deal of the ref stopping it, as Royler proved unable to escape from a Kimura armlock, which can snap the elbow. Renzo also got submitted by a Kimura, but had a visibly broken elbow. The Gracie's demanded special rules barring ref stoppages and time limits, to favor the defensive style, in the Pride Gran Prix, leading to the 90 minute fight between Royce and Sakuraba, where Sakuraba dominated and frustrated Gracie, with unconventional tactics. Sakuraba used the gi against Royce, using it to pull him off the mat, when he would go into the guard and get him to open his arms and allow Sakuraba room to strike to the head and face. He then pulled it over Royce's head, in the corner, in a clinch. Sakuraba threw repeated kicks to Royce's legs, when he would lie on the mat, trying to goad Sakuraba into the guard. Royce eventually couldn't stand for the bell and Helio threw in the towel. Sakuraba went on to be competitive against Igor Vovchanchyn, but was exhausted and his corner threw in the towel. Renzo didn't submit, but the ref stopped the fight and Renzo got on the mic and praised Sakuraba, accepting the loss with dignity and humility.
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 16, 2023 11:21:37 GMT -5
Twenty years ago today, Survivor Series 2003 aired on PPV. The main event saw World Heavyweight Champion Bill Goldberg versus Triple H. Earlier on the card, Goldberg had a backstage encounter with WWE Champion Brock Lesnar:
Lesnar had led a team against a team led by Kurt Angle. The other elimination match saw Team Bischoff versus Team Austin. Austin’s Co-General Manager status was on the line.
Another bout was an Ambulance match between Shane McMahon and Kane. I felt Shane often didn’t sell enough in matches (unless he was going through a table or doing a death-defying stunt). It was the same here.
This was a pretty solid/memorable PPV.
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 16, 2023 11:49:01 GMT -5
![](https://i.imgur.com/rRlmBi7.jpg) Wow, another event that I can watch around 7pm/8pm. These US PPVs kill me with their 4am/5am finishes. ![;)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/wink.png)
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 16, 2023 11:53:16 GMT -5
Thanks, codystarbuck , for all the MMA/UFC background. I have the first two UFC events on DVD, plus some random MMA DVDs, but I’ve never followed the behind-the-scenes stuff too closely. True, some magazines, such as Power Slam, would sometimes focus on MMA, and UWFI was featured in some magazines, but my knowledge of history and context of UFC is lacking, so you’ve given me an interesting history lesson. As you no doubt know, Hogan claims he and Vince were interested in buying UFC. Given Hogan was in WCW when UFC was gaining popularity, I suppose it’s another lie. Why would Bischoff, or WCW, allow Hogan to buy UFC with Vince? Monday Night Wars and all that. (“Sorry, Eric, I won’t be at Fall Brawl next month, I’m meeting your biggest rival about buying UFC.”) When will this man stop lying? EVERY lie of his is 100% instantly debunkable.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 16, 2023 22:35:21 GMT -5
Hogan also tried to buy the NFL but the Tampa Bay Buccaneers didn't want to be associated with him. ![::)](//storage.proboards.com/forum/images/smiley/eyesroll.png) It took me a while to nail down the evolution of the shoot wrestling side of UFC; mainly after subscribing to the Observer. UFC grew out of basically two things: shoot wrestling in Japan and vale tudo in Brazil. The Gracies were involved in vale tudo (Rickson was a noted fighter, defeating a guy called Zulu and defending the Gracie name against the luta livre (basically, submission or catch wrestling, with some striking) side of things. The Japanese side goes back a bit. Karl Gotch and Billy Robinson greatly impressed the Japanese wrestlers of the late 60s and 70s, with their legit wrestling skills and Inoki invited them to train young boys at the New Japan Dojo. Most of those guys emerged with a strong catch wrestling foundation, though some excelled at it, while others learned to execute the basics of wrestling and make it look snug. By the early-mid 1980s, you had a generation of young wrestlers who had legit martial arts and catch wrestling skills and wanted to do a more realistic style, plus, several of them felt they were being held back, in favor of veterans who were getting a bit long in the tooth. A group broke away, in 1984 and, with backing, formed the first Universal Wrestling Federation (UWF), including Akira Maeda, Rusher Kimura, Ruyama GoMach Hayato and Gran Hamada. They were soon joined by Satoru Sayama (Tiger Mask I), Yoshiaki Fujiwara, Nobuhiku Takada, and Kazuo Yamazaki. They avoided using obviously cooperative moves and stuck more to more realistic ones, with a greater emphasis on martial arts and submissions, and amateur moves, like suplexes and control holds. They also had definitive finishes, rather than disqualifications, draws or count-outs. Eventually, a rivalry for control emerged between Maeda, who favored martial arts presentation, and Sayama, who favored wrestling and submission. Sayama had some enemies, who felt he was selfish, as the boss. He and Maeda got into, during a match (though how legit has been called into question) and Maeda was fired. Sayama soon left, though there was a bit of a cloud over financial matters. For a time, they partnered with the WWF and Maeda toured the US with them. The group broke up and most ended up back at New Japan, where they did the first invasion angle, with New Japan vs UWF, which New Japan won. In 1988 a second group broke away from New Japan to form what was called Newborn UWF, which included many of the originals, including Maeda, who was fired by New Japan, after shooting on Riki Chosu and kicking him in the face, breaking the occipital bone. One of Takada's proteges, Yoji Anjo joined them and Fujiwara was later allowed out of his New Japan contract and he brought two promising young boys, Minoru Suzuki and Masakatsu Funaki. Kiyoshi Tamura would also debut there. They closed shop in 1990, after arguments between Maeda and their new non-wrestling president, over co-promoting with other independents, like Super World Sports (SWS, who worked with the WWF, and Grand Hamada's Universal Lucha Libre, which featured young talent, like Great Sasuke, Ultimo Dragon and Super Delfin). From that spawned a bunch of new promotions. The first was put together by Fujiwara, a Pro Wrestling Fujiwara Gumi, which featured him, Suzuki and Funaki, and Americans Ken Shamrock, Bart Vale, and Jerry Flynn, as well as Joe Malenko. They ran from 1991-96, though Suzuki, Funaki and Shamrock left in 1991 to form Pancrase. Fujiwara closed up, then dropped the title to Bart Vale, in a card that Vale promoted, in the US. Karl Gotch acted as a commissioner for the group, for a time, and they got financial backing from the same eyewear company that backed SWS. Also forming out of the Newborn UWF was UWFI (Union of Wrestling Force International), led by Takada, with himself and Tamura as the top stars. They got a bit of rub from Lou Thesz, as the figuredhead commissioner and he presented his old NWA belt as their title (they made a copy). The UWFI became massively popular, for a while, with Tamura on top and they also got people like Big Van Vader, Gary Albright, Pez Whatley and Bob Backlund to do matches there, as well as Norman Smiley. Gary Albright eventually left to join All-Japan and Vader left over a money dispute. They ran into financial problems and brokered a co-promotion deal with New Japan, under the condition that Riki Chosu, the New Japan booker, had full control over the booking. This led to the UWFI vs New Japan feud, which saw Takada win the IWGP title, facing Keiji Mutoh, in front of 67,000 fans. Shinya Hashimoto won it back, for New Japan, in front of a crowd of 65,000. UWFI closed up soon after. A couple of their cards were shown on PPV, in the US, under the Shoot Wrestling name, when the UFC had become a thing. The ads for it featured Jim Duggan and Lou Duva arguing over which sport was better, boxing or wrestling, with Gary Albright interrupting and saying shoot wrestling, because it's real (which was ironic, because they did worked fights. Maeda founded Fighting Network RINGS, in 1995, with Tamura promoted as one of his top stars, along with foreigners Chris Doleman and Dik Vrij (a pair of Dutch martial artists, with Doleman a noted judoka and sambo wrestler). They also recruits Russian sambo fighter Volk Han. Feodor Emilianko fought there. RINGS did worked fights, though they evolved into a mix of works and shoots, then went all shoot, after the UFC became dominant. They lasted until 2002. Pancrase was formed in 1993 by Suzuki and Funaki, who brought along Ken Shamrock. Shamrock's brother, Frank (both were adopted by Bob Shamrock, after living in his boys' group home) fought there, as did other Lion's Den fighters, like Guy Metzger and Jason Delucia, who also fought in the UFC. Bas Rutten came in there and started knocking guys out, left and right, though he was defeated bby submission experts Funaki, Suzuki and Shamrock, before learning to work the ground better. Rutten won the King of Pancrase title from Suzuki, then was out for a bit, with a hand injury and Frank Shamrock won a fight to determine an interim champion. The pair met for a showdown, which Rutten won. After Ken's appearances in the UFC, Semaphore Entertainment, who put on the UFC fight cards, broadcast some older Pancrase events, including the Frank Shamrock and Bas Rutten fight. Pancrase is still going, though they changed their rules from the basic shoot wrestling rules to the MMA rules, used in the UFC and Pride. One other group came out of UWF and that was Shooto, which was founded by Sayama, in 1985. It was originally an amateur association, promoting catch wrestling, as a sport, but developed a professional league. Shooto hosed the Vale Tudo Japan tournaments, won in 1994 and 95 by Rickson Gracie. The professional division began in 1989 and Enson Inoue won their heavyweight title in 1997 and then left, as champion in 1999. However, the main activity occurred at lighter weights. Yorinaga Nakamura began training Americans in Shooto, at Dan Inosanto's academy, including Eric Paulsen, who fought in the striker division of the World Combat Championships, losing to former IBF World Cruiserweight Champion, James Waring, when Paulsen took repeated punches to the face, while Waring held onto Paulsen's ponytail, which was legal. Paulsen cut his hair before fighting, in the future. Paulson won the light heavyweight title, in 1996 and held it until his retirement, in 1998. Pride Fighting Championships came along, in 1997 and soon became the dominant MMA promotion in Japan, with many marquee fights, including a large number of UFC veterans and former champions. Pride is where Kazushi Sakuraba built his reputation as the Gracie Hunter, defeating Royler, Renzo, and Royce Gracie in fights there. In 2006, a scandal arose about Pride's parent company, Dream Stage Entertainment, and their ties to the Yakuza. They lost their broadcast partners and fortunes fell. Dream Stage sold the promotion to the Fertitta Brothers, who owned the UFC. They were supposed to run as separate brands, with champions facing each other later, but it never materialized and Pride shut down in 2007. A group of the Fujiwara Gumi bunch formed BattleArts, after PWFG shut down. Joe Malenko did some matches for them, as did Bob Backlund. Minoru Tanaka worked there, as did Carl Greco, aka Carl Malenko. Sho Funaki, who worked in the WWF as part of Kaientai and solo, worked there a bit and BattleArts co-promoted with Michinoku Pro and WAR, Tenryu's group that included Ultimo Dragon, defending the International Junior Heavyweight Title (part of the J-Crown) and the World 6-Man titles (since Tenryu had held the NWA belts, with the Road Warriors). Kingdom was another shoot-style that started in 1997 after UWFI folded. Takada brought along his proteges, including the young Kazushi Sakuraba. Sakuraba also won the UFC Japan Ultimate Japan tournament, in 1997, while representing Kingdom. Takada, after realizing that shoot style was no longer popular, due to the real fights in Pride and the UFC, started Hustle, doing a style more akin to the WWF, which FMW eventually evolved to, as well. That same period that saw the birth of Newborn UWF also coincided with the explosion of independent promotions in Japan, like FMW, Big Japan, IWA Japan, W*ING, Wrestle Dream Factory, Michinoku Pro, Universal Lucha Libre (from which Michinoku Pro evolved) and several women's groups, like Gaea and ARSION, as well as saw the demise of All-Japan Women. You basically got stars leaving the big promotions to run independents, with themselves on top, often drawing big houses initially, then quickly tapering off. Many fell apart when the star ended up at odds with management, like when Aja Kong left ARSION, soon followed by Ayako Hamada, after Lioness Asuka took over.
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Post by commond on Nov 17, 2023 8:16:41 GMT -5
The UWF wasn't originally a shoot style promotion. It was a failed attempt at re-creating New Japan, either as a promotion that everyone from the original New Japan would jump to, a "new" New Japan with a better TV deal, or a cross-promotional deal, depending on who you talk to. In any event, it wasn't set up as a shoot style promotion. That evolved out of Fujiwara and Takada joining and Maeda beginning to train with karate experts. The guy who pushed the hardest for shoot style was Sayama. He was the one who tried to change the rules of the bouts and push for a different style of wrestling. The problem was that without TV they couldn't draw sufficient crowds, and their financial situation worsened due to scandals involving their backer. As much as I love Akira Maeda, from all accounts Maeda wanted to turn the original UWF into a more commercially viable promotion, and there were even suggestions that they were planning to co-promote with New Japan prior to the UWF collapsing and the workers returning to NJPW. The ironic thing is that they ended up adopting a lot of Sayama's ideas for the second UWF promotion, but at the time Maeda wanted them to run more shows and act like a more traditional wrestling company.
The second UWF was a sensation and the first couple of years were exciting, but there was mismanagement behind the scenes. Maeda accused the front office of fraud and was suspended for a time. The talent broke away in an effort to form a third UWF group, but in-fighting and opposing interests led to them splintering off into separate promotions.
I'm a big shoot style fan. I also love Shooto, Pancrase and Pride, but basically MMA killed shoot style dead. There was no point in watching worked fights when the shoots were more exciting. There was a time, however, when I would have agreed that RINGS was the pinnacle of pro-wrestling. I still believe that Volk Han was a genus and that Kiyoshi Tamura was arguably the best Japanese wrestler of the 90s. I also think Funaki was a legend and that his Pancrase fights with Rutten were as good as Misawa vs. Kawada, Hokuto vs. Kandori, or any of the famous 90s puroresu stuff. Oh, and Fujiwara is the greatest of all-time. Either him, Satanico, or Jim Breaks.
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 17, 2023 8:42:38 GMT -5
codystarbuck wrote this: Hogan fought Pride fighters in the late 70s, a good 18+ years before Pride was founded. One can only presume that Hogan’s frequent trips between Japan and the United States broke the space-time continuum, allowing him to fight Pride fighters before Pride was even founded.
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 18, 2023 6:51:36 GMT -5
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 19, 2023 21:30:57 GMT -5
^........The arena that left a minty fresh taste in your mouth!
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 20, 2023 7:19:36 GMT -5
Thirty years ago today, Battlebowl aired on PPV: ![](https://i.imgur.com/hgC0pFM.jpg) It featured a tournament of ‘randomly drawn’ tag team partners, with the winning teams advancing to a battle royal. We got matches such as Road Warrior Hawk & Rip Rogers versus Davey Boy Smith and Kole, and Vader and Cactus Jack versus Kane and Charlie Norris. While the tournament did seem to lack a lot of star power, I always liked the Lethal Lottery concept. Of course, WCW being WCW, after doing this in 1991, 1992 and 1993, they put it on the backburner until 1996. I just like the novelty of strange bedfellows. That’s why I like the Wildcard match at Survivor Series 1995. I wish the WWF had done a Lethal Lottery concept. Imagine in, say, 1994, Bret Hart & Shawn Michaels vs. Razor Ramon & Diesel, or a 1992 bout such as Bret Hart & Ric Flair vs. Shawn Michaels & Macho Man.
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 20, 2023 21:47:12 GMT -5
Rip talks about partnering with Hawk......
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Post by codystarbuck on Nov 20, 2023 21:47:56 GMT -5
codystarbuck wrote this: Hogan fought Pride fighters in the late 70s, a good 18+ years before Pride was founded. One can only presume that Hogan’s frequent trips between Japan and the United States broke the space-time continuum, allowing him to fight Pride fighters before Pride was even founded. Right now, he's busy getting his kid a lawyer for yet another DUI.
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Post by driver1980 on Nov 21, 2023 10:04:54 GMT -5
Ah, I see. Well, that’s something else he’ll be able to lie about when Joe Rogan next interviews him.
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