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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 5:30:14 GMT -5
I do acknowledge some of McMahon's successes (I want my posts to be balanced). Dropping the "Dingo" from Warrior and coming up with Ultimate Warrior is better. Dingo Warrior sounds silly. I mean, dingoes are hardly the most terrifying predators out of there. Wolf Warrior or Coyote Warrior would have sounded okay within the context of the 1980s.
I also feel he did well with Scott Hall and Kevin Nash. I mean, Diamond Studd and Oz/Vinnie Vegas were hardly noticed by WCW, they didn't even appear on some PPVs. Razor Ramon had a LOT of credibility during his WWF run, particularly with the IC title, while Diesel had a modicum of success.
And at least McMahon never dressed a guy up in bandages and called him The Yeti. A Yeti is an ape-like creature found in the Himalayas, not a mummy. Not the most important thing in the world, but a symptom of how clueless WCW is. Let's not talk about how the Halloween Havoc '98 feed cut out during the DDP/Goldberg main event...
The one thing I do take umbrage with is the whole "sole genius" thing, whether we're talking about Vince or Hogan, Rock, Austin, etc. It takes two to tango! Vince gave Hogan a platform during the 80s boom, but Hogan brought the goods. And one has to be conscious of the fact that EVERY person plays a part. Hogan/Vince were a good tag team, but a lot of guys put Hogan over. What is a superhero without good supervillains? What is a wrestling babyface without a good heel to oppose him? That WrestleMania 2 main event would have been pretty boring with Hogan alone in the cage.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 5:53:47 GMT -5
The Worst Gimmick of all Time
Kevin Nash as Oz This shows how clueless WCW did with Kevin Nash.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 5:57:12 GMT -5
Vinnie Vegas was certainly an improvement. In an era where WCW was adopting some WWF-like gimmicks, a smooth operator like Vinnie Vegas was at least easy to get behind. And Diamond Studd sounds like a good name.
Oz is weird. It's not even a name, it's a place.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 26, 2019 11:17:25 GMT -5
I just watched a 15 minutes match of Lucha Bros verses Private Party ... Private Party is an exciting tag team that does fantastic moves but they don't have any technical nor in ring tactics and Lucha Bros advances to the tag team tournament and I feel that Private Party don't have the experience to pull it off. These guys have no in ring communication and that forces the Lucha Bros ... Fennix and Pentagon Jr. to do what they don't normally do work together and forces them to do something unnatural and I feel that Private Party is one of the worst tag team because they just don't coordinate together. I've seen Private Party a couple of times and each time ... I felt that they don't have it takes to excel. It's an exciting match with a lousy conclusion and I'm not convinced that AEW is going to succeed in professional wrestling. Right now after seeing the first three shows on television ... I'm not very happy with the matches are going and I just feel that my hopes are vanished seeing everything that I've see so far. Cornette was crapping on the match, on his podcast (which I am listening to, now). He did think Marq Quen has something; but needs real training, like at NXT (he was "trained" by TNA wrestler Amazing Red, who I recall not being all that sound on fundamentals). |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 26, 2019 11:19:35 GMT -5
The Worst Gimmick of all Time
Kevin Nash as OzThis shows how clueless WCW did with Kevin Nash. To be fair, Nash stunk up the ring, so it wasn't just the gimmick. He sucked just as badly as one of the Master Blasters (yet another Mad Max-derived wrestling gimmick; Mel Gibson and George Miller have a lot to answer for). |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 11:51:59 GMT -5
Regarding Ultimate Warrior's one and only title reign, I have heard some people be critical of it, but I don't think the blame can entirely be blamed at the Warrior's feet (and his character was suited to the WWF in the 80s/90s). First of all, who could follow six years of Hulkamania? WWF fans had been conditioned to follow Hulkamania for six years at that point. Even during Randy Savage's reign, Hogan was king. In 1990, fans were being asked to suddenly accept a new guy on top. That can take some getting used to. Secondly, while Warrior was WWF Champion, the Hogan/Earthquake feud, if memory serves me right, took up more airtime. It certainly seemed to get more hype prior to SummerSlam 1990. That PPV's main event saw Warrior defend the title against Rick Rude in a steel cage match, but look at this program cover:  Equal billing? Maybe, but from what I remember of the time, Hogan with Tugboat (replaced by Big Boss Man) versus Earthquake with Dino Bravo seemed to get more airtime, hype and advertising. So, could Warrior really have succeeded with Hulkamania overshadowing him? Plus, I think it was problematic to rerun the Warrior/Rude feud. They had a great match at WrestleMania V. They had a very good match at SummerSlam 1989. That PPV was where their feud peaked for me. It was disappointing to see Warrior feud with Rude in 1990, it was rehashing an earlier and more superior program between the two. We'd already seen it. I didn't want to see it again. Even in a cage, the SummerSlam 1990 bout was inferior to the match they had at SummerSlam 1989. Warrior could have used some fresher opponents. Earthquake wasn't an option as he was feuding with Hogan. I know Warrior had matches with the likes of Ted DiBiase, Mr Perfect and Macho King in mid-to-late 1990. But there should have been something fresh. Maybe Warrior VS Warlord would have been perfect for the cartoon era. Or Warrior VS Barbarian. Or Warrior VS Rick Martel. I know on an old wrestling forum, there were others agreeing with me on this, stating that it made no sense for Warrior to rehash his feud with Rude. I like Rude. I like Warrior. But we want new and fresh things. Incidentally, and I don't know how true it is, I've read that the WWF wanted Warrior to turn heel in 1992, but he refused. There were also reports, and I really don't know if this is true, that there were plans for Warrior to face Bret Hart at the Royal Rumble in 1993 (of course, Warrior left the WWF in November 1992). On a final note, I do not rate Warrior's WCW tenure. Did he have much creative control? Some of the promos, angles and matches made no sense. I think he could have worked and had one final run. Warrior VS Bret on a PPV or Warrior VS Sting in a good face vs face match might have worked, but his WCW run was a failure for me. Not that he is entirely to blame. Which genius turned War Games ( Fall Brawl 1998) into a free-for-all instead of the team effort that had made it a success? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 26, 2019 17:40:37 GMT -5
Of your suggestions, the only one with the possibility of being good would be Warrior vs Rick Martel. Warlord and Barbarian were not the kind of guys to make anyone look good. They had to be carried to good matches and Barbarian was best with his old buddy Haku/King Tonga/Meng (they were both from Tonga and sent to Japan to train and participate in sumo, and then were trained for pro wrestling). Warlord was never good in the ring and needed someone to bump for him and that ain't Warrior. Martel was a great worker and could have bumped like crazy for Warrior. Always thought Maretl could have been pushed higher in the WWF, if they had let him heel without the model gimmick. It let more of a personality come out, but the model thing was just stupid. Prior to that, he had been a great babyface but was so-so on the mic, because English was his second language. I'm sure he cut etter promos in Montreal.
Business was way down, even before they took the belt off Hogan. The boom was over; but, yeah, it wasn't easy to follow that. However, Warrior was so limited that his matches had to be kept short. I mean, the guy would be blown up from just his ring entrance. He needed guys like Rude and Savage to carry him. However, the problem there is that Hulkamania had chewed up and spat out so many heels that there were few opponents for Warrior (as you say). Many had moved down the card or went to WCW. Orndorff would have been a good opponent for him; but, he was long gone and had suffered a neck and back injury during his last go with Hogan that eventually led to the deterioration in his right arm. He did return a bit later, then came back to WCW again, carrying Paul Roma with his one good arm. Bad arm or not he still kicked the crap out of Vader and stomped him, while wearing flip-flops!
Warrior caused all kinds of issues when he came back, as he had a lot of say in his programs. They even had an angle where a framed poster was to be smashed over his head; but, he telegraphed it by coming out wearing a ballcap, with his hair pushed up inside to protect his head. They had issues in 191, when his contract was up for renewal and he held them up for $550, 000 for Wrestlemania, higher royalties on merchandise and a "favored nations" clause in regard to pay compared to other performers. He threatened to stay home, otherwise. Vince gave in in July, then in August suspended Warrior for his extortion. Warrior walked. They agreed to bring him back, later; but the steroid trial had them under scrutiny and they started real testing. Warrior came back much lighter than before, but, was busted with a test and was eventually released, mainly because he had become a pain in the tuchus and wasn't drawing money at the box office (and sales of merch had dropped off). He did return later; but, no one cared.
In WCW he had total control and they paid him a fortune to wrestle three matches and make nonsensical promos and appear and disappear in smoke. that stupid trap door they put in the ring for his appearances injured Davey Boy Smith and ended up getting him released by Bischoff (while in the hospital) and was partially responsible for his drug problems.
I know he was big with the young crowds of that era; but, having seen him since Dallas (and heard of him since the UWF, in Apter mag pieces) he never did much for me. He had two moves and didn't do either well and was all cosmetics and a ring entrance. By contrast, Sting learned to work and had great matches with a variety of people. It was no contest. Plus, Warrior became more and more of a loon, the bigger his name got, until he was in complete la-la land, for the rest of his life.
The weird thing (which is saying a lot, when Warrior is the subject) was the urban legend that grew up that it was someone else when he returned in 1996, having reduced the juice and after WCW had debuted a fake Warrior, The Renegade, to sucker the few people still watching WCW. There were claims he was replaced by Steve DiSalvo and other such nonsense, that he had died from liver failure, related to steroids (probably fueld by Lyle Alzado's death from heavy steroid-related damage), or from blood vessel constriction cause by his arm tassels. The latter still makes me laugh. Thing was, he was still out there, talking jibberish and it didn't take much to recognize him. Sadly, Renegade (Richard Wilson) committed suicide, at the age of 33, after being released by WCW and finding no other offers available.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 18:14:09 GMT -5
That Renegade thing was tragic. What were WCW and Hogan thinking, eh? I am not blaming them for Renegade's suicide, but I blame them for trying to come up with a WCW version of Ultimate Warrior. I remember Hogan hinting at an "ultimate surprise" back in 1995.
I think Warrior took himself too seriously later in his career. And in 1996, he seemed more interested in pushing his merchandise/Warrior University than being in the wrestling business.
As for his WCW tenure, truly dire.
In 2005, Ringside Collectibles, via Mike Johnson, interviewed Warrior for a shoot interview. Warrior could not take responsibility for his failures. He blamed Hogan entirely for their poor Halloween Havoc match; Hogan, on the other hand, acknowledged his own flaws in that match during a documentary, particularly the fireball attempt. Hogan said it was a harebrained idea looking back.
Also during the shoot interview, Warrior was praising his WCW run. He was praising the One Warrior Nation concept. I didn't like it. I didn't get it. I hated the whole thing of him showing up in the mirror in Hogan's dressing room, spooking the Hulkster. So, Bischoff couldn't see Warrior in the mirror, but Hogan could. So Hogan must be mad. Then we're all mad because viewers saw Warrior in the mirror. As for the trapdoor stuff and that abominable War Games main event, well Warrior should have acknowledged his own flaws.
I did read that Russo lobbied to bring Warrior back, circa 2000. WCW didn't need that in 2000 - and thank goodness it never happened.
Warrior was a success as far as making money was concerned. And he did make an impact. But nothing in his portfolio had a satisfactory conclusion. Warrior University failed, the Warrior Workout kits were not well received, his movie career began and ended with one film, each wrestling run was less successful than the last from a critical perspective. And yet he seemed to blame everyone else. He talked about how he left Hollywood after that one film because of how phony Hollywood was. Why didn't he admit that the film he made (Firepower) just wasn't a success? Why was it always someone else's fault?
Regarding rumours of where he was at times, the funniest one I came across in 1994 was that he'd been bitten by a shark while scuba diving in Australia!
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 26, 2019 19:54:37 GMT -5
Renegade was used as a swerve. Hogan teased a partner that was alluded to be Warrior and produced Renegade. Fans crapped all over it. I'd be willing to be this was Hogan's idea, as he didn't do anything that he didn't want to. Far as I was concerned, that was worse than Fake Diesel and Razor.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 26, 2019 20:30:21 GMT -5
I was one pissed off fan back then.
In an era when I wasn't reading insider newsletters, and the internet was in its infancy, I took a lot at face value. An "ultimate surprise"? What else could it be?
Why do they do that in wrestling? Lies and duplicity do not draw money - and they burn through goodwill. Hogan surely knew that fans watching WCW at the time would have equated "ultimate surprise" with Ultimate Warrior. Sure, those in the know, such as the people reading insider newsletters, would not have been fooled, but I was 14. When someone I like told us fans about an "ultimate surprise", I naturally expected to see Warrior show up.
Incidentally, I have been working my way through Meltzer's archive. I read the newsletter produced when Monday Nitro first aired. Meltzer reported that there was talk of having Vader beat Hogan for the WCW World Championship on an episode of Nitro, probably to show the world that their show was more unpredictable than Raw. Whatever talk there was, I can't imagine Hogan laying down for Vader.
Despite being a Hulkamaniac - you're always gonna appreciate the guy who got you interested in the sport - I really don't know where Hogan's head was at at times. When things lack logic, like the Renegade thing, you shake your head. No-one is perfect, and there's no "magic formula" for wrestling, but things like revealing Renegade after talking about an "ultimate surprise" are logical no-nos. And Hogan would certainly have known that.
I know WCW was always one step away from disaster, but come 1998/99, the nWo angle should have been wound down, perhaps culminating in a battle between nWo black and white and nWo Wolfpac. And from 1999 onwards, it would have been a good idea, I feel, for Hogan to seriously give some thought to "passing the torch" properly. He needn't have retired. He could have remained a "special attraction", much like he was at, say, SummerSlam 2006 against Randy Orton. He surely did not need the money. Late 1998/early 1999 would have been the ideal time, in my humble opinion, for Hogan to start thinking about a big bout on PPV where he could have put over a young superstar, e.g. Chris Jericho.
So many squandered opportunities and bull.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 26, 2019 22:02:53 GMT -5
Well, Hogan soon would need the money, with the divorce and his kid killing someone in an auto accident. Plus, his businesses repeatedly failed. Then, there was Brooke's attempt at a "singing" career.
Hogan was a carny, pure and simple. He sold all kinds of BS and smiled all the way to the bank. Part of the problem is that there wasn't a proper booker or promoter to shoot down the stupidity. This stuff didn't happen in the old days because they had to come back to that town in a week or a month and if you ticked off the fans, attendance dropped and it took a lot to get it back. WCW ticked off Chicago, with the Starrcade there and never got it back. By the time Hogan was in WCW, they were barely touring and he didn't do house shows. He did PPVs and tv, possibly as much as he felt like. By that point, Hogan was in it for Hogan. He had tv money coming from that show that sucked a big black hole in the ratings and from Turner, who thought they had bought the Hogan of 1985. They would have been better off with the Hogan of 1979; at least he was hungry to get ahead.
I can't see Hogan jobbing for anyone at that point (and he didn't). It's too bad Vader didn't go into business for himself, since Hogan was no Stan Hansen. Oh well.
I don't know; it seemed like the 90s was the death of logic and common sense in wrestling (in the US), apart from Smokey Mountain and, maybe ECW. Notice that business went in the toilet along with it?
Give him his due; carny or not, Hogan drew massive money from 84-87. People wanted to see and buy what he was selling. I hated it; but he was the one on Sports illustrated and SNL and everywhere else, not Dusty or Flair, though they just have easily could have done so, with that kind of marketing behind them. Crockett was too conservative on the marketing, because he couldn't get past being a regional promoter and the Turner people couldn't get past the idea that they were doing a tv show. They sucked at producing something that drew people to live events and to buy PPVs. McMahon knew that the mass audience thought wrestling was fake and was a carnial so just give them that; and, it worked! Only problem was, once you saw the circus' acts, you really didn't need to see it again.
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Post by wickedmountain on Oct 27, 2019 3:24:08 GMT -5
Cody, I knew you wouldn't let me down! Thanks for always adding to my knowledge.  The article mentioned the WBF, original XFL, ICOPRO, the New York restaurant, etc. They were all failures. No Holds Barred is a guilty pleasure (what, no Academy Award?), but, yes, it was a failure. The thing is, in the pre-Google age, someone like me did accept *some* of that revisionist history. Not all, of course. The Apter mags taught me a lot. I remember seeing a Ted DiBiase image from around 1981 in one Apter mag, reminding me that Ted DiBiase had a history prior to his 1987 WWF debut. And when the Legion of Doom showed up in the WWF, publications like Sports Review Wrestling had kept me informed about the Road Warriors' exploits. However, the Apter mags couldn't report everything. In more naive days, I guess I did accept the "undefeated Andre" hype. I knew nothing of those titles you mentioned. I probably did accept the smoke-filled arenas narrative. Oh, and the article also looked at whether McMahon did create stars. The examples given were Hulk Hogan, Randy Savage, Ultimate Warrior, and Bret Hart. The writer stated how Hogan was really born in the AWA, Savage developed his character in Memphis, Warrior had built himself up as Dingo Warrior in WCCW, Bret Hart had Stampede experience, etc. There has been a lot of revisionist history. Makes you wonder, had WCW won the Monday Night Wars, and put the WWF out of business, what revisionist history, if any, would WCW be writing? Hi Ultimate Warrior actually did wrestle as Dingo Warrior Albeit Briefly in WWF before they changed his name Ultimate . There is a match and or was a match On You Tube of this . |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2019 8:17:51 GMT -5
I'll have a look.
I remember seeing his first televised WWF bout (late 1987) when the WWF released The Self-Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior. It was quite odd seeing him WALK to the ring!
I think he could have had a bigger career - and a second WWF Championship reign. He was a success by his own standards (money-wise), but his momentum stalled many times. According to his shoot interview, McMahon approached him in 1998 about a return (McMahon knew Warrior was negotiating with WCW). Had Warrior returned to the WWF in 1998, it would have been a shorter tenure that his previous ones, I'm sure. And, realistically, where would he have fit in among the Attitude Era? I doubt McMahon would have wanted to push Austin aside to make room for Warrior main events.
He had his time, I guess.
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 27, 2019 11:38:48 GMT -5
I'll have a look. I remember seeing his first televised WWF bout (late 1987) when the WWF released The Self-Destruction of the Ultimate Warrior. It was quite odd seeing him WALK to the ring! I think he could have had a bigger career - and a second WWF Championship reign. He was a success by his own standards (money-wise), but his momentum stalled many times. According to his shoot interview, McMahon approached him in 1998 about a return (McMahon knew Warrior was negotiating with WCW). Had Warrior returned to the WWF in 1998, it would have been a shorter tenure that his previous ones, I'm sure. And, realistically, where would he have fit in among the Attitude Era? I doubt McMahon would have wanted to push Austin aside to make room for Warrior main events. He had his time, I guess. He also did practically nothing in the ring for the 3 WCW matches and I doubt he would have done more in the WWF. Would have been fun to see the Rock eat him alive, verbally...... Warrior: I call down the power of Destrucity...... Rock: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHAT YOU CALL DOWN! THE ROCK WILL GRAB THAT SUMB@#$%, TURN IT SIDEWAYS AND SHOVE STRAIGHT UP YOUR CANDY @#$! iF YA SMELLLLLLLLLLLLLLllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll..................WHAT THE ROCK................................IS COOKING! One thing was for sure, though; he still got a huge reaction, doing nothing. The crowds went ape when he showed up in WCW (at least, the first time). I suspect the pop would have been bigger in the WWF; but, I wonder how long it would have lasted, if he stuck around? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Oct 27, 2019 11:49:09 GMT -5
If you are curious about the NWA and haven't tried Powerrr yet, check out their Ten Pounds of Gold series, on Youtube....
They started this after Corrigan bought the name and titles and used it to build up to their first event, where Tim Storm defended the title against Nick Aldis. It continued as their platform for subsequent matches and the NWA 70 PPV. It helps you get to know the guys who are working for the promotion, plus the people who would be involved in Powerrr. You meet Jocephus, who was mixing a cult leader with Bruiser Brody, though he wasn't doing the Brody schtick, on Powerrr. You can also see Tim Storm at a House of Hardcore show (Tommy Dreamer's ECW-legacy promotion) at the venue where Shane Douglas threw down the nWA title after winning it. Douglas is there on the night they film.
Corrigan has also licensed the Houston Wrestling library, from Paul Boesch's family, which is filled with great matches, featuring guys like Harley Race, Ric Flair, Magnum TA, the Midnight Express, the Rock N Roll Express, Wahoo McDaniel and other legends. Some of that is on Youtube. It's one of the few significant libraries not owned by the WWE (along with St Louis, Continental and Memphis).
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