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Post by Deleted on Jul 9, 2020 17:47:24 GMT -5
My understanding was Jarret laying down and Hogan's remarks were all work, but Russo's subsequent rant/firing was a shoot which Hogan sued over.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 9:09:20 GMT -5
True, but if I was a judge in such case, I’d want to know where the wrestling storyline ended and the reality began.
How would either party have proven anything concerning a predetermined sport and a storyline? Couldn’t Russo have just claimed Hogan had okayed it backstage? Couldn’t Hogan then have denied it? Where would the case have ended?
The whole thing was silly.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 9:27:55 GMT -5
That's kinda how a lot of cases are. But,yeah, I think the judge shared your view when they tossed it. I read somewhere the judge basically said "we don't litigate wrestling storylines".
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2020 10:32:18 GMT -5
The Great American Bash 1990 aired thirty years ago today: This was, of course, the event where Sting beat Ric Flair, winning his first world title. A thrilling bout. I didn’t see this event until a video distributor bothered to release it in 1992. It was interesting seeing Mark Callous versus Lex Luger. At that point in my life, I’d only seen Callous as the Undertaker. Tom Zenk vs. Big Van Vader was a short but solid bout, Z-Man gave it his all. I was really rooting for him. Watched that on PPV; good match with Sting & Flair, though not as good as their Clash of Champions I match. Obviously, with the knee, Sting didn't have the same mobility. Also my first Vader match, after seeing him in the magazines, from Japan.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2020 10:34:43 GMT -5
Russo is 300 times an idiot and that whole fiasco was a perfect illustration. Then again, you can say that about 99% of what he booked in WCW, 99.9 % in TNA and 100% of his podcasts and interviews.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 10:34:45 GMT -5
That's kinda how a lot of cases are. But,yeah, I think the judge shared your view when they tossed it. I read somewhere the judge basically said "we don't litigate wrestling storylines". Wise judge! If I was a judge, and I’m sure courtroom time is precious, the last thing I’d want to do is listen to a case involving two men who should have grown up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 10:37:01 GMT -5
Russo is 300 times an idiot and that whole fiasco was a perfect illustration. Then again, you can say that about 99% of what he booked in WCW, 99.9 % in TNA and 100% of his podcasts and interviews. In one shoot interview, he mentioned something about why would people watch fake wrestling when there is reality out there such as the Iraq War. Erm, escapism. He also talked about people’s impatience, e.g. when a match starts, they are already wanting to change the channel. Not me! He was judging me by his own short attention span. When Razor Ramon and the 1-2-3 Kid took on Diesel and Shawn Michaels in a 1994 match ( Action Zone, I think), I was there for the duration. Had it gone an hour, I’d have been as hooked. Russo doesn’t seem to understand that we want escapism.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 10, 2020 10:45:13 GMT -5
Russo is 300 times an idiot and that whole fiasco was a perfect illustration. Then again, you can say that about 99% of what he booked in WCW, 99.9 % in TNA and 100% of his podcasts and interviews. My buddies and I absolutely preferred WCW to WWE at the time. I signed up for The WWE Network last year to re-watch the WCW stuff and I could not believe how putrid it actually was. It got marginally better when nWo showed up (just for the stupidity of the whole thing), but even then it was pretty dire.
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Post by sabongero on Jul 10, 2020 13:16:28 GMT -5
The Great American Bash 1990 aired thirty years ago today: This was, of course, the event where Sting beat Ric Flair, winning his first world title. A thrilling bout. I didn’t see this event until a video distributor bothered to release it in 1992. It was interesting seeing Mark Callous versus Lex Luger. At that point in my life, I’d only seen Callous as the Undertaker. Tom Zenk vs. Big Van Vader was a short but solid bout, Z-Man gave it his all. I was really rooting for him. Watched that on PPV; good match with Sting & Flair, though not as good as their Clash of Champions I match. Obviously, with the knee, Sting didn't have the same mobility. Also my first Vader match, after seeing him in the magazines, from Japan. That first Clash of Champions in Greensboro, NC was a great match between the two. As is the Great American Bash. Let's not forget the Iron Man Tournament match of Starrcade 1989 between the two and many others as well. But my favorite Sting vs Ric Flair match would have to be the first one where an irritated Ric Flair (who just regained the World title from "Hands of Stone" Ronnie Garvin) wanted to wrestle Sting in a December 1987 episode of World Wide Wrestling shortly after Starrcade Chi-Town Heat 1987. That was when at the end with the bloodied referee Tommy Young was down and Sting had Flair in the Scorpion Death Lock and James J. Dillon couldn't get the hold off, he signaled for Arn Anderson to come in and help Flair. But in the ring as Arn came in, was cut in the middle of the ring by Lex Luger and Barry Wyndham. And the crowd went nuts. That was a great match, which I find to be the best match between the two in terms of crowd reaction and how fresh it was. That's what started the whole Flair/Sting rivalry. Man just remembering it was great. I better look it up and watch it again.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 10, 2020 19:57:18 GMT -5
Russo is 300 times an idiot and that whole fiasco was a perfect illustration. Then again, you can say that about 99% of what he booked in WCW, 99.9 % in TNA and 100% of his podcasts and interviews. My buddies and I absolutely preferred WCW to WWE at the time. I signed up for The WWE Network last year to re-watch the WCW stuff and I could not believe how putrid it actually was. It got marginally better when nWo showed up (just for the stupidity of the whole thing), but even then it was pretty dire. WCW was in trouble the moment Turner bought out the Crocketts. Crockett was the stuff to watch, which means 1985-1989. Pre-Black Saturday World Championship Wrestling (aka Georgia Championship Wrestling) was mostly good to great up until the end. Those are the things to watch. By 1989, Crockett was spending too much and had got diddled on PPV, which is why he sold out. WCW was always the highest rated program on WTBS; so, Turner wanted to control it to maximize his revenue. Problem is, he tried to treat it like a tv show and not a touring performance company, like Ice Capades or the Ringling Bros. Circus. The person he put in charge, Jim Herd, was a tv guy, having managed KPLR in St Louis. he had never managed a wrestling promotion or a promotion of any kind. He got the job because KPLR broadcast Wrestling From The Chase, from 1969 until 1983. The did not operate the Stlouis Wrestling Club (the St Louis promotion). Herd wouldn't listen to the guys that did know how to run a wrestling company and kept making stupid decisions, from routing shows all over the place, without a logical route, not book the tv to sell tickets and PPV, not use the talent they had under contract but book people who are elaving to win, not sever contracts for people who can't perform but let them automatically rollover when they overlook it (the Iron Sheik), and stupid ideas like the Ding Dongs. Flair was able to book sopme decent stuff and get the tv back up, after about 3 months, but was undercut by Herd, after his series with Steamboat and the Funk program. Funk vs Flair did great business; but, Herd just wanted Funk to work creative, not matches. Funk didn't stick around long. Herd pushed Flair until he quit, while still NWA champion, refused to return his $25,000 (plus interest) bond on the belt and Flair went off to the WWF with the belt, which led to the start of the WCW World title. The NWA name was their brand name; but, they let it go, with all that history and cache. There's some good material in 1989: Flair & Steamboat, the Midnight Express & the Road Warriors, etc. The Midnight vs Midnight Express Feud started with a bang, then they ticked off Dennis Condrey and he walked out and they didn't want Randy Rose (that was still Crockett, though). They could have run that program for at least 6 months and drew big houses and PPV. Kip Frey followed Herd and they attempted a few things that drew some interest, like re-establishing the relationship with the NWA and bringing back the titles. However, that fell apart and they ended up with the WCW International World Title, instead of the NWA vs WCW, title vs title program they wanted to have, with Flair vs Wyndham. Bill Watts was the first wrestling guy put in charge, but he butted heads with Turner execs, was a bit out of touch with current wrestling (he hadn't been involved for about 5 years, after selling to Crockett) and made some statements in an interview that were easily interpreted as racist (he was trying to make a point but articulated it badly, and came off as racist, despite being the promoter who pushed black wrestlers as his top draws) and he was fired, which led to Bischoff. Pre-1996 WCW has moments, but few consistent. 1996 is a lot of transition; but, by summer, you have Benoit, Guerrero, Malenko, Rey Mysterio, Psicosis, Chris Jericho, Juventud Guerrera, Ultimo Dragon and Perry Saturn all working there, lighting up the program with the amazing Cruiserweight matches. Plus, the NWO thing gets going and they sustain interest, at first. They blew it with Starrcade 1997. They had a year of Sting not wrestling but haunting the rafters, driving the NWO nuts, when they ran roughshod over everyone. Then, Hogan won't job cleanly to him and the Starrcade match is an overbooked mess that also devalues Bret Hart when he is the hottest babyface in the world, coming off the Montreal Screwjob. After that, it's downhill, with occasionally great undercard matches and a lot of ego and stupidity. Stupidity goes into overdrive when Russo comes, while ego had ruled after Nash had the book. After that, it's a runaway train to the end. You want good WCW/NWA: anything up until 1989. You want good WCW; 1989-90 is still mostly good. 1991, so-so, 1992.....it gets bad and continues for the next 2-3 years. Summer 1996-December 1997 is phenomenal undercard, decent to goo main events, and some good tv. After that, you have to be selective. By the same token, the WWF is no great shakes between 1992 and 1996, apart from a few specific matches and angles. 92-95 was a real down time for pro wrestling in the US (burnout from the 80s, plus a bad economy at the start of the decade) and both companies went overseas to make money.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 6:31:29 GMT -5
I suppose I can find good things in any era/year. The WWF in 1994 was not my favourite year for that promotion, but yet we had TV matches such as Bret Hart vs. 1-2-3 Kid, the WM X ladder match, Owen Hart winning KOTR, etc.
I did like WCW between 1991 and 1993. Sure, there was some bad stuff - and some of the gimmicks were silly, but I enjoyed the Light Heavyweight Championship bouts, the Dangerous Alliance, the WrestleWar 1992 War Games match, Rick Rude’s defence of the U.S. Title, Steve Austin’s defence of the TV Title, Tom Zenk vs. Brian Pillman at WrestleWar 1992, the Hollywood Blondes, Flair vs. Vader, Sting vs. Vader, etc.
Of course, some things were bad. Fall Brawl 1993 is a terrible PPV. So is Slamboree 1996. And I am not sure how they screwed up Starrcade 1997. After that, it was downhill. I’d say the last great WCW PPV was Spring Stampede 1999.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 9:28:19 GMT -5
There was definitely stuff to like about WCW around that time. I remember really enjoying Raven's Flock, Juvi, La Parka, and a buncha cruiserweights. But that stuff all seemed to slowly get pushed out by the nWo's focus on cutting terrible promos. It was like a stable of Ric Flair knockoffs that replaced cockiness ans over-selling with laziness and disdain. Like, if you told me the entire nWo thing was improvised or that the only direction was "go be a goon", I'd believe it. WWE has had some low times too, but I felt that was just bad writing/booking or a lack of creativity. I never felt like 80% of the promotion didn't give a crap.
The nWo felt funny at the time, and I'll still laugh at some clips (Hall was hilarious), but I can't watch whole shows now, because it just makes me feel bad for those low and mid-card guys who went out there and busted their butts just to see the main events deteriorate into nothing scums among a buncha clowns who managed to turn not taking the profession seriously into being the focus. Oh and here'a Sting standing around with a bat.
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 11, 2020 10:19:45 GMT -5
There was definitely stuff to like about WCW around that time. I remember really enjoying Raven's Flock, Juvi, La Parka, and a buncha cruiserweights. But that stuff all seemed to slowly get pushed out by the nWo's focus on cutting terrible promos. It was like a stable of Ric Flair knockoffs that replaced cockiness ans over-selling with laziness and disdain. Like, if you told me the entire nWo thing was improvised or that the only direction was "go be a goon", I'd believe it. WWE has had some low times too, but I felt that was just bad writing/booking or a lack of creativity. I never felt like 80% of the promotion didn't give a crap. The nWo felt funny at the time, and I'll still laugh at some clips (Hall was hilarious), but I can't watch whole shows now, because it just makes me feel bad for those low and mid-card guys who went out there and busted their butts just to see the main events deteriorate into nothing scums among a buncha clowns who managed to turn not taking the profession seriously into being the focus. Oh and here'a Sting standing around with a bat. That was the thing; it started strong and worked best when it was Hall & Nash, as the Outsiders, coming in to disrupt everything. Then there was the mystery of who their mystery partner would be. After that turns out to be Hogan, who WCW fans had been crapping on, for a while, it kicked in. Sting walking out on Luger was a nice angle and left you wondering about him. Then, it got devalued by adding midcard guys to the NWO, so there could be a surprise every week. Before you knew it, you went from Hall & Nash and Hogan, to: Hall, Nash, Hogan, Waltman, Bagwell, Norton, Virgil, Konan, Savage, Giant/Big Show (who was in, then out), DiBiase, Bischoff, Nick Patrick (the crooked ref).......then we get into the whole Red vs Black fiasco... This needed to be booked long term, with a definite ending in mind. That's how the UWFI vs New Japan angle had been done, which inspired the WCW vs NWO angle (and the "original UWF" vs New Japan angle, from even earlier). The invaders get the upper hand early and the favorites fight back and even things up, then go over at the end, decisively. With the NWO, they never got their comeuppance. The closest we got was Sting vs Hogan, but he didn't get a clean win; so, it meant nothing. They got caught up in booking for Monday Nights, instead of the PPVs and even for the quarter hours, instead of the whole show. Famously, WWF gained and kept the upper hand when Bischoff got in Tony Sciavone's ear and had him mock Foley's pre-taped title win, which had everyone switch over to watch, thanks to the free promo. The early "Which side is Sting on?" storyline worked, DDP turning down Hall & Nash and going it alone worked (as did his feud with Savage, thanks to Savage wanting to work with him and put him over). They had some great tv, like Hall and Nash busting up backstage at Universal Studios Florida and launching Rey Mysterio into a trailer, like a dart...
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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 11, 2020 10:50:04 GMT -5
The nWo felt funny at the time, and I'll still laugh at some clips (Hall was hilarious), but I can't watch whole shows now, because it just makes me feel bad for those low and mid-card guys who went out there and busted their butts just to see the main events deteriorate into nothing scums among a buncha clowns who managed to turn not taking the profession seriously into being the focus. Oh and here'a Sting standing around with a bat. Cruiserweights were the only really good thing that WCW had going for it in the long term. I'm more of an ECW guy, but they kind of went off the deep end after Barely Legal with trying to do WWF's Attitude Era one better by adding more extreme matches
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2020 11:05:18 GMT -5
I agree it started out well enough, with Hall and Nash as a couple of goons just causing trouble. The Outsider's shtick felt intended as somewhat tongue-in-cheek, similar to DX. It seemed like Hogan thought it was more earnest though, and he always came off as a jackass. I've got nothing to support that, though, it's just my reading of it. Like I said, it worked for me at the time, but going back it got unbearable really quickly.
The Foley title leak backfire is hilarious for what a complete loser play it was. It feels so paranoid and petty. Wasn't Nitro winning at that point? What did Bischoff hope to accomplish?
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