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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 16, 2019 13:53:18 GMT -5
It seemed like some formerly high quality artists started to draw badly... like Jan Duursema of Arion in the '80s was unrcognizable and awful in Professor Xavier And The X-Men of the '90s. The grimacing/pouting mouths, the huge muscles, the broken spines and helium boobs. Terry Shoemaker in the '80s Legion Of Super-Heroes was great... in a '90s X-Force like a parody of Liefeld with normal male figures looking like the Hulk and the female ones distorted skin magazine posing pin-ups... all the posing, almost every panel... no more than three facial expressions spread among an entire cast... the '90s. And Fantagraphics put out a lot of cash in junk like many others regardless of their quality oriignal comics... and Eros? What wasn't creepy about the sudden surge of porn comics and funny animals with sex scenes that were a tenth of the quality of Omaha The Cat Dancer or Albedo. Just soooo much extremely fannish garbage, so much exploitation people ought to have felt stupid buying (come on, how many swimsuit issues? laaaame). Leering Venom and Lobo in the store windows.
But... now I am very glad to find those genuine gems that came out in the period. In the '80s I supported comics like Zot and Mars, Xenozoic Tales and Beanworld, Espers and Elfquest... I do think there were a lot fewer people like me entering shops later on though.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 16, 2019 13:59:53 GMT -5
And, as I never get tired of saying, I think DC was at their absolute peak quality-wise during the '90s. Vertigo and Paradox took cues from Archie Godwin's Epic line, but they published more books, were more professionally run and at the same both more daring and experimental. There were editors at DC - Berger especially - who would publish comics just because they were good which would be an unthinkable proposition at DC in 1982 or, hell, today.
So DC ended up publishing a bunch of personal works by idiosyncratic creators that weren't designed to appeal to traditional comic book geek interests. Y'got 7 MILES A SECOND, VEILS, STUCK RUBBER BABY, a HISTORY OF VIOLENCE, ENIGMA reprinting GON, ... and Sandman which remains (IMO) the best long form factory system comic ever produced. Not everything Vertigo published was gold (VAMPS?!?! And it got a sequel?!?!?!) but the greatness-to-crap ratio was much better than any other mainstream publisher in the history of American comics.
And most of the superhero stuff was fair to decent, especially after the market crashed and the spandex herd was culled circa 1994. There was a buncha stuff like Kessel and Grummet's SUPERBOY; unspectacular but reliable, solid, monthly entertainment.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 16, 2019 14:08:20 GMT -5
And most of the superhero stuff was fair to decent, especially after the market crashed and the spandex herd was culled circa 1994. There was a buncha stuff like Kessel and Grummet's SUPERBOY; unspectacular but reliable, solid, monthly entertainment. I think part of this is that mainstream DC (as opposed to its imprints) never came close to going full Marvel/Image. DC did go into event overload (something that never really ended). But you mostly didn't see the kind of dire McFarlane/Liefield clone wars that happened at other publishers. In particular it didn't seem to filter down to the second tier books at DC where they maintained some quality (if not breathtaking work) by writers like John Ostrander, for instance.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 16, 2019 14:20:08 GMT -5
But... now I am very glad to find those genuine gems that came out in the period. In the '80s I supported comics like Zot and Mars, Xenozoic Tales and Beanworld, Espers and Elfquest... I do think there were a lot fewer people like me entering shops later on though. Beanworld is the greatest comic ever. Dead serious.
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Post by badwolf on Aug 16, 2019 14:28:07 GMT -5
Another thing that happened in the 90s was the rise of "mall comic shops", run by people who never really loved comics and were hopelessly devoted to all this drek. I swear they should have had an epilepsy warning due to the bombardment of prismatic covers and cards that were everywhere.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 16, 2019 14:38:19 GMT -5
I have a theory that the reason serious comic fans hate the 90’s is because the hobby got invaded by outsiders and the publishers started to cater to them with foil covers and stuff. Outsiders and the speculators' market did not create the problem--they responded to an existing problem. At the time, I personally knew several comic shop dealers, and with the exception of one, the others often criticized the direction the big two (and some independents) were going in. So-called "creators" apeing infantile action and sci-fi movies of the 80s, an obsession with characters skewing younger than ever before, ramped up violence all for the sake of being "eXtreme" or some believing everyone being a borderline or full on psychopath was "maturing" the industry, but like Tarantino films of the period, it was an exercise in extremism for shock masquerading as some sort of character study / sales job of "being real", when its inherently ridiculous nature was the polar opposite of that.
Foil, 3-D covers, zero-numbered issues, multi/maxi series to the point of self-parody, etc. were just a few of the symptoms of an industry already suffering from decay since the tail end of the previous decade, with "creators"--and let's be honest--some of their fans buying into it, because they were reared on the same, creatively bankrupt fruit, so to speak.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 16, 2019 14:52:23 GMT -5
Just a quick reminder that any criticisms of Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man, well those are fighting words round these parts. *Cleans boxing gloves and mouthguard* Fleetway, who published 2000 AD, started publishing a comic called Revolver. First issue cover here: Bit of a weird comic, like an even more dystopian version of 2000 AD. It lasted seven issues (I think there may have been some specials). I suppose, and my designation could be mistaken, that it's best described as a counter-culture publication.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Aug 16, 2019 14:58:25 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned Usagi Yojimbo as being part of the awfulness to come out of the 90s?
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Post by Randle-El on Aug 16, 2019 15:14:44 GMT -5
Something to keep in mind is that all of the publishing gimmicks and catering to speculators couldn't happen in a market where the buyers weren't already treating comics like valuable collectibles instead of disposable entertainment. The same exact thing happened in the sports card market. You had a pastime that was largely considered cheap entertainment for children, with production values and prices that were commensurate with that mentality. At some point, nostalgia created a profitable secondary market that the general public caught onto, causing a surge in interest in the hobby from folks for whom investment was a primary motive and entertainment was a secondary consideration (if it was a consideration at all). Now you have a market where people are looking to spend money on whatever might be the next big thing. That's a perfect environment to create the kind of bubble that hit the comics and sports card hobbies.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Aug 16, 2019 16:52:09 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned Usagi Yojimbo as being part of the awfulness to come out of the 90s? I mean, it started in the 80's but I'd argue it really reached it's peak in the 90's so your point stands counselor. I'm not saying the "Throw a foil cover on it, add more pouches, guns, boobs and gore" mentality didn't exist, it certainly did, but despite being the unofficial mascot of the decade I don't think it was nearly as prevalent as folks seem to think. There are all kinds of books that were absolutely fantastic in the 90's, even coming from the big two, certainly no less so than any other period. Out side of the vertigo and independents named already you had books like Ron Marz' run on Green Lantern starring Kyle Rayner, James Robinson's Starman, Chuck Dixon's run on Robin, Peter David on The Incredible Hulk(and Young Justice), Howard Mackie's Ghost Rider, Grant Morison's DC One Million, Doug Moench's second turn at Moon Knight in Resurection Wars and High Strangeness, X-Men Unlimited featured some really fantastic stand alone stories and Kevin Smith's Daredevil which were all great super hero books.
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Post by tarkintino on Aug 16, 2019 17:23:56 GMT -5
yes. yes they were Absolutely awful. It uses "X", and all it needed to win the terrible 90s comic lottery were more super-steroid bodies, squinting eyes, oversized guns defying the laws of firearm mechanics, claws and cyber-something or other.
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Post by beccabear67 on Aug 16, 2019 17:25:20 GMT -5
Has anyone mentioned Usagi Yojimbo as being part of the awfulness to come out of the 90s? I must've had some of the first of Usagi in the backs of Albedo, before Critters and his own title, before the action figure. I also had the first couple of Savage Dragons in an early '80s comic titled 'Graphic Fantasy', this was before Megaton. I'm not sure what people know about, I was getting various comics from the Seattle scene and Vancouver not in any price guides... Fog City Comics with George Metzger and Marv Newland (he of Bambi vs. Godzilla fame)... does that exist 'officially' to supposed comics collectors/fans? Morty the Dog by Steve Willis? Various Colin Upton publications? Steve Lafler? Chester Brown? Or only if Fantagraphics published it or Overstreet/Diamond Distributors said it existed? I was never fully fixated on super characters, but what had been an exciting overall scene in comic books generally seemed to be going downhill circa 1987-88. Supposedly there are acres of storage spaces filled with late '80s and early '90s comics that are destined to be recycled if they haven't been already. I have never heard that about early '80s while late '90s are often hard to find as back issues. I can't say for McFarlane but I was familiar with Erik Larsen and actually liked his work (as originally it was so heavily influenced by Byrne and that whole style), and a lot of his and other of that same time were people who learned to draw comics from other comics more than earlier generations who got some art school or even great art school (the Joe Kubert students are sort of the last strand of the rigorous training in fundamentals)... these people like Rob Liefeld never got the fundamentals. The bunch before them got some of it, and if you go back before that there are people who got the absolute best instruction from some of the great illustrators and artists personally. Now where you see someone from the class of learning from comic books and how-to stuff on their own mostly trying to teach others they are often not aware of what they never learned. This is a huge over-simplification and nothing divides up as neatly as this but maybe the gist of it will sound true. It's been the same in Japan where you have a lot of comics and cartoons being very derivative and lacking in art skills at the point where you have people who studied and read and obsessed over other comics and cartoons. It's like a copy of a copy of a copy. You had the last great originals start in the '70s and early '80s and then it's been more shallow and stylization covering for shortcomings since, or as Philip K. Dick put it, skim milk masquerading as cream. I remember various older underground cartoonists in the middle '80s expressing thoughts about the Dark Knight/Watchmen type of superheroes who weren't heroes much anymore as the kids need saving from the so-called adults trying to mature the mainstream characters. If someone who would support Spain Rodriguez' Trashman found Frank Miller's Batman fascistic that says something. A lot of the fans turned pro found the very idea of doing comics for younger kids demeaning or embarrassing or something, as though having Scooby-Doo, Dennis The Menace or Smurfs under the same Marvel imprint as their serious mature Wolverine or whoever else 'dealing' with death, AIDS or rape and whatnot was inherently wrong (thus the Star imprint perhaps?) or like Fred Hembeck worried about an attractive woman seeing him with a Godzilla comic. This kind of ties into the more pretentious Sequential Narrative and Graphic Novel names for comics the '60s undergrounders seemed to go the other way with by calling theirs Comix. If you felt there could be Spider-Man Graphic Novels dealing with mature themes to me you were part of the problem. Spider-Man was created for and popular with (for decades anyway) twelve year olds and there was never anything wrong with that. But it's like twelve year olds were no longer worthy of good or artistic comics? Or maybe they felt the truth that they were too old for these characters though for some reason determined to bring them with them to the land of superior gritty explicit maturity?
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 16, 2019 22:39:48 GMT -5
Re: the Erik Larsen/David Michelinie thing. Larsen, with the launch of Image was probably the biggest offender for shooting off his mouth and putting his foot in it. He wrote a letter to CBG, as "Name Withheld" where he basically said that artists were the only ones who counted in comics and they were the real creators. He touched off a firestorm, with multiple pros firing back, Peter David going to town in his But I Digress columns and Larsen's exposure as the author of the letter. Comments were made denying any credit to Louise Simonson for Cable and suddenly Todd McFarlane had issues with Peter David on the Hulk, which was news to David, as they got along fine and David tailored the stories to what McFarlane wanted to do. McFarlane had made some claims about being held back which didn't seem to have a lot of evidence supporting it; but, that was about the extent of it. LIefeld was busy defending swipe charges, and even that blew over fairly quickly. Valentino and Lee were the more mature of the bunch and just talked about doing the things they wanted to do, without taking shots at anyone else or claiming credit for the X-Men. Same with Silverstri. Portacio was dealing with family crises (sister was in poor health and passed away from complications due to Lupus). Most of it quieted down after a few months and after the McFarlane/Peter David debate circus. They had bigger problems with late books and Diamond threatening penalties if they didn't meet ship dates as that policy would affect a large chunk of their line.
Larsen definitely seemed to be the guy with a big grudge; maybe he didn't get enough royalties, compared to the others; I don't know. I don't recall much from him after Savage Dragon was going and he was getting decent to good reviews and praise for getting the book out on schedule.
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Post by codystarbuck on Aug 16, 2019 22:40:52 GMT -5
Just a quick reminder that any criticisms of Todd McFarlane's Spider-Man, well those are fighting words round these parts. *Cleans boxing gloves and mouthguard* Fleetway, who published 2000 AD, started publishing a comic called Revolver. First issue cover here: Bit of a weird comic, like an even more dystopian version of 2000 AD. It lasted seven issues (I think there may have been some specials). I suppose, and my designation could be mistaken, that it's best described as a counter-culture publication. Fantagraphics reprinted Dare as a 3-issue mini, which is how I read it. Hughes art reminds me, a bit, of Daniel torres and Rocco Vargas, though he is even more stylized.
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Aug 17, 2019 3:21:06 GMT -5
Re: the Erik Larsen/David Michelinie thing. Larsen, with the launch of Image was probably the biggest offender for shooting off his mouth and putting his foot in it. He wrote a letter to CBG, as "Name Withheld" where he basically said that artists were the only ones who counted in comics and they were the real creators. He touched off a firestorm, with multiple pros firing back, Peter David going to town in his But I Digress columns and Larsen's exposure as the author of the letter. Comments were made denying any credit to Louise Simonson for Cable and suddenly Todd McFarlane had issues with Peter David on the Hulk, which was news to David, as they got along fine and David tailored the stories to what McFarlane wanted to do. McFarlane had made some claims about being held back which didn't seem to have a lot of evidence supporting it; but, that was about the extent of it. LIefeld was busy defending swipe charges, and even that blew over fairly quickly. Valentino and Lee were the more mature of the bunch and just talked about doing the things they wanted to do, without taking shots at anyone else or claiming credit for the X-Men. Same with Silverstri. Portacio was dealing with family crises (sister was in poor health and passed away from complications due to Lupus). Most of it quieted down after a few months and after the McFarlane/Peter David debate circus. They had bigger problems with late books and Diamond threatening penalties if they didn't meet ship dates as that policy would affect a large chunk of their line. Larsen definitely seemed to be the guy with a big grudge; maybe he didn't get enough royalties, compared to the others; I don't know. I don't recall much from him after Savage Dragon was going and he was getting decent to good reviews and praise for getting the book out on schedule. So Erik Larsen was absolutely right? I just can't imagine Peter David ever being right about anything. But I guess that no matter how wrong he is he can always find a way to whine about how he is personally being victimized. So at least he's consistent!
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