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Post by wickedmountain on Oct 20, 2019 13:19:21 GMT -5
DC Classic superheroes being replaced by new superheroes in 2020 ? What do you all think of this .
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 20, 2019 14:46:43 GMT -5
The 90's strike back!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 17:17:16 GMT -5
Yep! Marvel did the same thing a few years ago with mixed results. And mainstream titles from the 90s are viewed as a low point by many fans.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 20, 2019 17:27:21 GMT -5
Yep! Marvel did the same thing a few years ago with mixed results. And mainstream titles from the 90s are viewed as a low point by many fans. Yeah, I didn't care for the Iron Man replacement but I loved Jane as Thor so hopefully some fun stories can be told with new blood.
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Post by Duragizer on Oct 20, 2019 17:47:04 GMT -5
If I thought this was anything more than a cynical cashgrab, I'd be up for it. I've long resented the sliding timeline/illusion of change model, and believe it's only organic and natural for older heroes to pass the torch to next generations. But the Big Two are artless and fickle. I can see this lasting for a couple years at the very most; once enough bucks have been raked in and the fanboy backlash reaches its crescendo, the status quo will be restored.
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Post by hondobrode on Oct 20, 2019 18:58:11 GMT -5
Except for a few fringe titles, I'm mostly done with the Big Two because of constant jacking around like this.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 20, 2019 19:45:02 GMT -5
Yep! Marvel did the same thing a few years ago with mixed results. And mainstream titles from the 90s are viewed as a low point by many fans. Yeah, I didn't care for the Iron Man replacement but I loved Jane as Thor so hopefully some fun stories can be told with new blood. I agree. The reason Jane as Thor worked was she was a supporting character since the beginning. Riri as Iron Man? A new character introduced and becomes a superhero in a few months? There is no investment in the character. It's why Wally worked as the Flash for years but someone like Artemis wasn't accepted as Wonder Woman.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 25, 2019 7:11:28 GMT -5
It's so simple, yet why do these editors/publishers not get it? Another thread talked about 'why superheroes' and not sci fi and fantasy. I think the answer to that is that in the old days, it felt like the stories MATTERED. They were part of this wonderful whole that was the shared DC Universe. That's gone now... there's only scattered remnants, and the publishers are finding out that perhaps we don't actually want 40 different superheroes if they are all telling the same story independently, instead of contributing to one whole universe.
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Post by The Captain on Oct 25, 2019 16:14:39 GMT -5
It's so simple, yet why do these editors/publishers not get it? Because the publishers like DC and Marvel have been purchased by giant multi-media conglomerations that wanted the IP and character rights to make money in other media formats. Those entities don't care about a bunch of aging white guys making a weekly or monthly trip to the LCS to pick up their comic books featuring the same characters they've been reading since they were six, because those middle-aged folks aren't a growing or desired demographic. I talk to my daughters' friends and none of them has ever read a comic book nor desires to do so, but they have seen all of the MCU films, have watched The Flash, etc, and while those entities are happy they love the characters in those formats, the bigger piece for them is that the kids BUY THE MERCH! My younger daughter wore her Captain America t-shirt to school today, and my older daughter proudly sports her Star Labs hoodie whenever she can, but the younger one has never read a comic that isn't "My Little Pony" and my older one, while having an entire shelf of Marvel Essentials of old Silver and Bronze Age stories, has never picked up a Flash comic. I'm going to focus on the word I bolded: We. "We", being aging white (mostly straight) guys, don't matter in a world where Raina Telgemeier sells an ungodly number of graphic novels to a bunch of tween girls, as do other artists. Don't get me wrong, I'm not making the prior statement in a political "white guys are victims" way, but more in a "our days of spending money on things is drawing shorter, not to mention we have mortgages and student loans and car payments and spouses who like to shop and kids who want to buy Raina Telgemeier books, so our buying power is diminished" manner, and those entities, the ones that own the DC and Marvel characters, know it. They make precious little money off the Wednesday Warrior crowd, and while we can pretend that our wants and whims are important to them, we're only deluding ourselves. So, if they can create "new" heroes to replace the original (or second or third or etc.) heroes, and then use those characters in their other media outlets while continuing to sop up a little revenue from those of us who will still buy the monthly books because we are obsessive completionists or can't envision a world where we don't go to the LCS on Wednesday and buy books, then all the better for them. If these companies were smart, they would change their model entirely. They would put out two books a year featuring these new characters, using Scholastic Books to help market and distribute them in schools, and each would tell a self-contained story. No complex continuity, no needing to know what happened in Batman's book to understand what is going on in Superman's book, and the ability to miss an installment and not be completely lost. We have to consider that not everyone can afford to pick up every issue of a book, so if they miss one or two because their parents had their hours cut or lost their jobs and needed to put food on the table instead of buying funny books, then they are hopelessly lost in the story and will likely stop even trying to buy them because it will be frustrating to fill in the gaps. Produce a complete story, one with a beginning, middle, and end, unencumbered by the weight of 50 or more years of continuity, and sales will follow.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 25, 2019 16:29:39 GMT -5
Again, The Captain nails it. Middle-aged plus, white males are not a demographic that excites advertisers or most companies that are looking to grow a brand. Most of us have maybe another 20 years of buying power at the extreme. And as has been pointed out thousands of times Kids do read comics. They just aren't the comics we read and they don't consume them the way we did. And those weekly "Millennials are killing Industry X" articles are more about industries that aren't willing to change with the times rather than people actively doing anything to industries.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2019 17:35:34 GMT -5
Except for a few fringe titles, I'm mostly done with the Big Two because of constant jacking around like this. The last DC Comics book that I read is the Terrifics and I stopped reading them because it's makes no sense driving 35 minutes to a LCS to get the monthly copy. I stopped and haven't bought any Terrifics since issue #11. Same with my dear friend Jeff keeps telling me exactly what hondobrode said in his post here.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 26, 2019 8:09:02 GMT -5
I wasn't trying to make it sound like I expect the industry to change, it's not going to, I was just pointing out what's changed.
People seem to really like the interconnectedness of the marvel movies, so it would make sense for them to do the same with the comics, but they don't.
What I do find interesting is the difference in the marketing between the US and Japan. Our comics are all properties, and they must stay the same eternally for brand recognition (to sell the Merch), and the character can never change or, if they do, they have to be back to status quo before the end.
Manga are far less long lived, and very willing (too much so IMO at times) to change characters, looks, stories, etc. and actually end a series to move on to another. I'm not sure about the relative incomes, clearly it's not a fair comparison to compare an anime series based off a manga to a blockbuster film, but they seem successful, so my point is it doesn't HAVE to be the way it is to work.
The question is, is there some way to get those kids that love the movies and the t-shirts for superheroes to actually buy comics in some form? No one has figured that out so far.. it'll be interesting to see if they do. DC is clearly trying.
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Post by The Captain on Oct 26, 2019 14:45:42 GMT -5
People seem to really like the interconnectedness of the marvel movies, so it would make sense for them to do the same with the comics, but they don't. It isn't that they don't like the interconnectedness of the Marvel comics, it's that they have no interest in the comics to begin with. The movies have a definitive starting point (Iron Man) and as long as you see the movies, you are completely in the loop. There's no obscure reference in Thor #327 or Captain America #195 that can be called back to and leave people feeling lost because they've never read it. The Big Two have to do the following to achieve this: 1. Write, draw, and produce self-contained stories that do not require prior reading or vast knowledge of a shared universe. Part of the joy of buying comics as a kid was usually that I could pick up an issue of Amazing Spider-Man without having to read 5 other books, either in that series or some other series, to fully understand it. 2. Get away from the direct sales model and put the books they produce in #1 into the hands of people through other sources. Scholastic Books, Walmart, Target, etc., would all be ways to put these stories in front of the masses, which is important because... 3. The LCS can be a scary place. They are usually full of middle-aged men possessing varying levels of both hygiene and maturity, and they sometimes aren't particularly welcoming to kids, women, or the LGBTQ community, at least in my experience. For some, while I know that having other products such as Magic: The Gathering can be profitable, it also invites foul-mouthed, ill-behaved males to sit around for hours on end swilling Mountain Dew, making crude sexual references, and acting as though they were in their own basement instead of a public place. Even my own LCS, which is pretty tame, is not a place I would take either of my daughters on a Wednesday afternoon between 4 and 8, because there are usually a bunch of men, some of whom I graduated high school with, standing around discussing movies, TV, and comics in an adult manner, which raises the question of whether they do so because there are no kids present or are there no kids present because they do so? As long as the primary place to buy comics greatly resembles a frat house for Peter Pans, it will be difficult for the industry to expand into non-traditional demographics.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 26, 2019 15:01:17 GMT -5
Comic Book stores are another issue all together (you're not wrong, it's just another issue).
I definitely think the 'starting from the beginning' thing is a big issue. No matter how many #1s they create, people know it's not really the start, and today's netflix/on demand world is a place were people expect to consume their chosen media in it's entirety.
The problem is, even starting over with a hard reboot... they'd have to tell different stories, with different characters. I think even if it was totally a clean break, the internet is going to talk about and compare it to before, and that will still lead to that same feeling of 'not getting the whole story' that I agree is a big barrier to kids reading comics.
Maybe this is why the Manga model works.. there's no baggage like that. But, of course, the trade off is IP. Stuff from the 90s like, say Cowboy Bebop or Evangelion are still a bit in the public eye, but nowhere near the IP Marvel and DC are... while anime fans do seek good older series out, there's of course always a bias towards newer stuff.
It's not like when most of us here were kids and you'd watch what was on, and sometimes those afternoon reruns weren't in order, or they'd stop in the middle and start over, or you'd see part 1 and never see part two. Comics are that way, too, but that's not something the typical Millenial and younger can deal with.
Comics definitely have to adjust to that. Maybe a new line with NO outside references that were sold at the school book fairs would work? Anyone know how the Dc Super Hero Girls books did (terrible marketing, that, btw.. why not just call it 'Super Hero High' and not make boys feel like they can't like it?)
Or maybe it's a volume issue... are there just an overwhelming number of comics for someone to try to read everything? What if DC tried a compact kids line that only had 4 or 5 titles, that would each their own series? (Maybe that's what they're doing with the novels that are sorta like Japanese Light Novels?)
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