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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Oct 28, 2019 16:55:06 GMT -5
I'm currently restocking on a bunch of old Classics. Either getting copies, or upgrading to Hardcover collections where I can get them at the right price. For example Watchmen, Batman Year One, Dark Knight, Sandman, and Preacher. It occurred to me that they are all at least 20 years old. What a surprise right? Someone on this forum likes old comics. DUH!!
However the next thing that occurs is which books published in the last 10 years or so will fall into this category.
Now I know we all have personal, quirky faves. I love Ambush Bug but am under no illusion that the greater community will revere him like he should be. Now I still read way too many new books and in general am left feeling that theres not a LOT of great stories being told. Will the current JLA story-line be heralded as an all-time classic in 20 years? What about Secret Empire?
Na I didnt think so, but I do have a few nominations
Thor by Jason Aaron My love for modern Thor starts with the JMS run, but Aaron nails it as far as I'm concerned. Civil War by Mark Millar An event that actually still has relevance Hush by Jeof Loeb and probably Long Halloween Green Lantern by Geof Johns Because it encaptures the Sinestro War, Blackest Night, and leads into the new 52 seamlessly Saga by Brian Vaughan Captain America by Ed Brubaker IMHO the greatest run on my favourite character.
So I get that we'll want to fight for Hellboy(which I think deserves more recognition) or Usagi Yojimbo, and maybe dozens of others, but Im sure there must be more that will last the test of time, for a large audience, not just the fanboy base.
Forgive me if this has been discussed to death, or already has a thread, I just dont recall any specific discussion.
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Post by berkley on Oct 28, 2019 17:41:30 GMT -5
I don't have any sense or feeling of what makes a great impression on the readership as a whole. The classics you mentioned from the 80s - Watchmen, etc, - only feel like classics to me because I liked them when I read them in the isolation of those pre-internet days and then found out later on that lots of other comics readers had liked them too.
So I can't fathom the idea of a Geoff Johns or a Jason Aaron ever producing anything I'd consider a classic, no matter how popular it might be with their audience. They look to me like utterly standard present-day superhero writers. If I had to compare them to writers of the 70s it would be someone like Gerry Conway and certainly not with the Gerbers or Engleharts of the day.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 28, 2019 20:06:51 GMT -5
I think, from what'd you've listed, Aaron's Thor is the biggest chance. Maybe early Ms. Marvel? Or Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur (something scholastic sells alot of)
Stuff like Hellboy and Usagi, while great, I don't think will even be a classic, evergreen story like DKR, Watchmen, etc. I'm sure there's great stuff from the 60s and 70s that we don't talk about from smaller publishers. Hellboy probably has a better chance, since it has better trade availability and the movies.
I think Walking Dead will sell for a long time, because of the show.
I don't think time will be kind to Saga, but we'll see how it goes if and when it continues.
I can't see any of the event being 'classic'.. I mean, even stuff like Crisis or Secret Wars are only 'classic' in impact, they're not really things people seek out and read.
I don't think any Marvel event had that sort of impact.. maybe Civil War, but that was more an impact in style than in-universe stuff.
DC keeps changing the universe, so it's not like you need to read old stuff... I can't see much there, either.
Astro City maybe? That'll read alot better in a set of trades than when the issues dribble out.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Oct 28, 2019 21:06:50 GMT -5
From the past decade or so?
My money is on the Walking Dead, Saga and Fraction and Aja’s Hawkeye. But not a lot of money. It’s hard to create classics that are more or less based on earlier creations that are already rife with classics.
I think non-superhero books will have a better chance at being looked at, in future years, as more than just “same old same old, but with nice printing”.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2019 22:09:19 GMT -5
The stuff that Paste Pot Paul mentioned that becomes classic evergreen sellers is stuff that has reached and resonated with an audience beyond the hardcore comic fan audience-Dark Knight Returns, Watchmen, Sandman, Preacher, et. al all reached a wider audience without adaptations in other media vaulting them into the public consciousness as something more than just favorites with fanboys. They are all more or less self contained as well and tell complete stories. It may take 10 volumes for Sandman to do it while Watchmen and DKR do it in one, but those 10 volumes are self-contained and offer up a complete story when all is said and done. They offer resolution and pay off that provides for a satisfying and memorable experience for the readers who invest in it.
I don't see much from Marvel and DC doing that these days as not much of their output these days is geared to an audience beyond the Wednesday warriors or accessible to such an audience the way Watchmen, Dark Knight, etc. were. They aren't hitting the notes of self-contained complete stories that offer resolution and pay off for the audience.
I think modern classics will come from other areas of the industry...
from Image I think Saga (especially since it got street cred with its Hugo awards) and Walking Dead have a chance to get there (assuming Saga finishes up and tells the complete story) since they are on target to hit the kind of notes needed to emerge as a classic evergreen seller, it's a question of will it get there and how will the endings play when all is said and done-Walking Dead has ended but I haven't paid attention as to how the ending was received, Saga hasn't reached its conclusion yet, so it's too soon to make a call, though it is on the right track.
Hellboy and Usagi miss on a couple of the notes. Hellboy is not quite self-contained, there are too many spin-offs and stories outside the main Hellboy arc that impact the Hellboy story itself, and Usagi isn't yet a complete story though many of the arcs are, but it hasn't really reached that wider mass audience for it to vault into that arena. Things like TMNT have the reach but not the complete self-contained story.
I have a suspicion that most of the next generation of classics will not be stuff that had much of an impact on the direct market. They will be stuff that came from either smaller publishers in the direct market that reached a wider audience outside the direct market, or stuff from major book publishers with graphic novel imprints that do not focus on the direct market and don't release as periodicals first.
There are a few that I think are already on the verge of becoming such modern classics the best example of which is...
Bone by Jeff Smith-self-contained complete story, with resolution and emotional payoff for readers that reached a wide audience outside of the comic hardcore base because of Scholastic sales. For many, it is already there, and the upcoming Netflix animated series will likely cement it's place in that echelon of evergreen selling classics. I'm not sure Bone will go out of print any time in the foreseeable future.
The picture is a little more cloudy on the others.
The dilemma as I see it is that most of what has emerged as classics i.e. evergreen sellers that have transcended the confines of just a comic fan audience were projects that were NOT part of the shared universe or produced in a sandbox with diverse hands shaping it. Most were special self-contained projects with an intentional limited run (Dark Knight, Watchmen and to an extent Batman: Year One which was a "mini-series within a series" rather than a standard release as part of an ongoing series) or longer series that would up having definitive ends (Sandman, Preacher, etc.), and all were the product of single unified creative vision guiding the entire product and giving it a unified voice and visual look. The overwhelming majority of content put out by Marvel and DC currently does not meet any of those criteria so I don't see much of that stuff achieving evergreen selling classic status.
Runs that do check all the boxes include things like Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man, but it seems to have lost steam and popularity over the last 5-7 years, but it seemed on track to make it for a short time. So even if something checks all the boxes, there are intangibles at play that make things hard to predict. But I would guess that a handful of the Raina Telgemeier OGN's will be in the class of modern evergreen selling classics, joining Bone, and maybe Saga and Walking Dead. Beyond that I don't see much checking the boxes and having the kinds of intangibles to make it. I do think more of the future classics will be stuff that was targeted to the young adult market rather than the adult market as things like Watchman, Sandman et. al were though.
-M
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Post by brianf on Oct 29, 2019 2:08:58 GMT -5
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Post by Reptisaurus! on Oct 29, 2019 3:32:37 GMT -5
Note: I think there have been far, far, more really great long-form comics produced in English in the last 20 years than in all of the 20th century.
New Classics? Fun Home. Persepolis. Quality of the work matters, but outside media attention matters more. As far as recent books that are getting a lot of critical acclaim, I'm really hoping My Favorite Thing Is Monsters sticks around. (But they don't always! Exit Wounds kept getting Best of the Year accolades, but I never hear it mentioned today.)
Edit: Probably March, because it'll be the graphic novel that is taught in black history college classes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 7:23:28 GMT -5
Note: I think there have been far, far, more really great long-form comics produced in English in the last 20 years than in all of the 20th century. New Classics? Fun Home. Persepolis. Quality of the work matters, but outside media attention matters more. As far as recent books that are getting a lot of critical acclaim, I'm really hoping My Favorite Thing Is Monsters sticks around. (But they don't always! Exit Wounds kept getting Best of the Year accolades, but I never hear it mentioned today.) Edit: Probably March, because it'll be the graphic novel that is taught in black history college classes. My Favorite Thing is Monsters is amazing, but I don't think it will reach a wide enough audience to become an evergreen seller and stay in print. I forgot about March, and I agree it could be a strong candidate. The staying in print is key to achieving classic status. Digital could alter that dynamic a bit, but if something is not in print and someone doesn't bring it back into print to be available, it will be largely forgotten no matter the level of quality. The thing with things that achieve classic status is that they keep gaining new audiences. New people keep discovering them, not because they found old copies in used bookstores/comic shop back issue bins, but because the book remains readily available to be discovered. Since Marvel doesn't keep anything in print (they will go back to print on a few select volumes after being out of print for a while or create new formats to put certain stories/runs out again, but they rarely go past a first printing for any collection, which limits the availability of content to find new audiences and achieve classic status. DC is slightly better at this, but most of what stays in print are special projects not collections of their ongoing series, so that again limits the ability of that material to keep finding audiences. I think this is a direct result of their dual nature as both content creators and publishers. Someone who is purely a publisher has more incentive to keep certain material in print as they are not focused on creating new content but on selling the content they already have and finding new content that will sell. Marvel/DC have to keep churning out new content to sell while publishers can be more selective as to which content the choose to bring to market. -M
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Post by Paste Pot Paul on Oct 29, 2019 8:57:43 GMT -5
I get your point about self contained stories, but it doesn't mean arcs like Hush don't strike a chord, whether for the value of the story or the work of a writer or artist of note. Even saying that it's hard to see specific stories standing out from the crowd these days. Walking Dead may be a phenom for some time, I certainly hope so. Usagi's done in one (in general...I get that it has an overall saga to it) would probably work against it even if it were more popular. New Frontier would be another modern classic for mine, though it's a bit older than what I've tried to touch on. Though to be fair most of my suggestions are older too.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 29, 2019 9:17:00 GMT -5
I feel like Bone(1991-2004) is already a classic, but yeah, definitely. I haven't read the Raina Telegaier stuff...are those timeless enough to pass to the next generation of kids? Sure, they're super popular NOW, but that doesn't mean they'll have staying power. March, yes, 100%, for the historical content.. PErsepolis (2000) is already there, you'll rarely not find it next to Maus on the shelf. I think Fun Home(2006) already counts, too. The Bechdel test is a thing, after all. I haven't read My Favorite Thing is Monsters, that's not really the sort of book I typically like. It is available on Hoopla though, so maybe I'll check it out
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Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2019 10:54:57 GMT -5
I get your point about self contained stories, but it doesn't mean arcs like Hush don't strike a chord, whether for the value of the story or the work of a writer or artist of note. Even saying that it's hard to see specific stories standing out from the crowd these days. Walking Dead may be a phenom for some time, I certainly hope so. Usagi's done in one (in general...I get that it has an overall saga to it) would probably work against it even if it were more popular. New Frontier would be another modern classic for mine, though it's a bit older than what I've tried to touch on. Though to be fair most of my suggestions are older too. I would argue Hush is like Batman Year One, a mini-series within a series that is not necessarily part of what came before and after it in the ongoing series, so passes the test as a complete standalone story. -M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 29, 2019 16:49:42 GMT -5
I would say that Bone, if it isn't already, is a good possibility. It's the comic that my 12 year old grandson has actually latched onto as opposed to any superhero comics. Nice self-contained all-ages book.
A couple that are there, but "comic book fans" don't tend to recognize...Dav Pilkey's books, Captain Underpants and Dog Man. Yeah, Captain Underpants is combined comics and prose, but kids eat them up. My youngest son was a nut for them and my 6 year old Grandson is now in love with them. See also, Diary of a Wimpy Kid.
My wife was taught V For Vendetta in a university lit class that also included Orwell's Homage to Catalonia and Ngugi wa Thiong'o's Petals of Blood.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Oct 29, 2019 17:32:41 GMT -5
I would think Hellboy will have some serious staying power, not only do the trades get continued re-releases with trade dress that makes them easy to follow but they even recently got new omnibus editions that look even better and collect more of the story per book.
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Post by lordyam on Nov 6, 2019 20:05:06 GMT -5
Rex Mundi. Dark Horse's Conan run (Busiek and Truman and to a lesser extent Van Lente)
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Post by berkley on Nov 7, 2019 21:54:46 GMT -5
For me "classic" implies quality and influence, among other things, much more than such things as popularity or remaining continually in print, so it's really too early to tell what will become a classic of the most recent stuff. Lots of enormously popular (at the time) Victorian prose fiction, for example, would never be considered "classic" today - far from it. But some of it would, along with some stuff that was never hugely popular at any time.
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