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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 13, 2020 8:37:07 GMT -5
I like Gaiman's writing, particularly how he uses language; but, I'm a bigger fan of past friends and collaborators Kim Newman and Terry Pratchett, in the prose world, and Alan Moore, in comics (James Robinson, to a lesser extent, in his younger days). This reading of The Sandman is my first exposure to Gaiman's writing. I like his writing a lot too, it's often thought-provoking and he writes great dialogue. But after reading 7 volumes of The Sandman, I've gotta say that he's not in the same league as Alan Moore. Gaiman is a really fantastic writer as far as the usual standards of comic writing goes, but the writing in The Sandman doesn't come close to the excellence of Moore's best stuff, like V for Vendetta, Watchmen, From Hell, or Miracleman. Gaiman always came across, to me, as a slicker version of Moore, who knew how to turn a phrase, created interesting characters, but didn't always land his stories. Black Orchid mostly felt like an exercise in weirdness, for weirdness sake. Books of Magic was an interesting trip through DC's world of magic, but seemed in search of a plot for a likeable character. His Miracleman was more an exploration of the post-Moore world and he had just started his first real meaty storyline, when things started falling apart at Eclipse. Sandman is his major work, both in length and scope and there is some tremendous storytelling, compelling characters, and rich language. There are also a lot of stories that are, pleasant, but not rich, some stuff that just seems like he's trying to seem trendy and some stuff that leaves me cold. His audience in the 90s was mostly late teens to mid-20s, a lot of angsty people posing at being hip and cool, who kind of over-exaggerated his skill as a writer. At the same time, I've known people who had some pretty unhappy childhoods who really found comfort in his work, so it really depends on how you come to his work. I think parts of it are really brilliant and parts are kind of going through the motions. Still, his conversation between Death and Hob, where Death says, "You got what everyone gets; you got a lifetime." has had deeper meaning for me, when I lost my father, my wife's mother, and a good friend (and huge Gaiman fan) in the span of about 6-8 months. Sometimes Neil just nailed it. With his prose work, I like his short stories and most of American Gods, though I always felt it doesn't really go anywhere. It just kind of meanders through the United States, introducing new gods, at strange tourist sites; a travel log of weirdness. Neverwhere was a cool concept, but sort of uneven in the telling. Stardust was fun, if light (written for teens). Anansi Boys was more of a character study. I haven't read Coraline, but that seems well received in the kid lit world. |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 13, 2020 9:15:16 GMT -5
Incidentally, while we're on the subject of Morpheus's past loves, Dream's assistant Lucien mentions another former lover of Dream's named Elanora, but I don't believe that she's been referenced in the series before. So, I'm thinking that this might be something that will tie into later events, perhaps? Isn't she the lady who was the origin of the dream world in which Barbie found herself in "A Game of You"? The one we see just at the end, when Dream erases that world? |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Jun 13, 2020 9:54:39 GMT -5
At one point in their quest, the two Endless siblings visit a strip club in Dublin, Ireland, where the goddess Ishtar is now working called Suffragette City (which is perhaps the most ironic name for a strip club ever). I really enjoyed the scenes in the strip club a lot – and not for any lusty, base reasons! It was because the dialogue and characterisation was smart, funny, and thought-provoking. In particular, Ishtar's lethally seductive dance – which is more than the eyes and minds of human males can bear – provides this volume with one of its most memorable scenes. Still, you can't help feeling sorry for the hapless guys who just wanted to relax and watch a strip show, but instead ended up getting their minds blown out by an ancient Babylonian goddess.  I would post a scan of this sequence, but it's decidedly NSFW. That was indeed a powerful issue. The plight of Ishtar, reduced to whatever little adoration she could get from the patrons of a seedy strip-club, was quite tragic. That actually works very well for me, because it reinforces the idea that these aren't simply very powerful beings (as would be, say, Marvel's Asgardians) but the embodiment of universal absolutes akin to forces of nature, but a quantum leap greater. They are presented as characters, generally likable (except for desire, who mostly plays the villain) but like forces of nature they can be absolutely destructive, relentless, and unfair. Even Dream, our main character, can be a right @$$**** when he wants to. Delirium looks all cute and inoffensive, even in her not-quite-coherent way, but she is the embodiment of a most horrible reality: that of loss of contact with reality. As such, I'd expect her to do many horrible things. As I would expect all of the Endless to do, come to think of it. That, on the other hand, didn't work for me at all. The Endless were presented as individual manifestations of dream, death, destiny and so on... not as simple caretakers who could decide to give up their job and have the reality they represent go on without them. For if the latter is possible, then they cannot be excused for their actions; they are not forces of nature. They become the equivalent of Thor, who is not the thunder but who has power over it, and could perfectly decide to prevent anyone from being struck by lightning. The patterns that Destruction refers to, and that would go on even if he just spent his remaining days on an island painting sunsets, those are what the Endless are supposed to be. The patterns themselves. (Besides, I still bemoan that the final Endless would be Destruction. He strikes me as redundant, since we already have Death around, as Doom would have been alongside Destiny. I would have preferred some other concept starting with a D, like (NO, NOT THAT ONE!) like Deity, or perhaps Devotion as a stand-in for love, since Love is supposed to be greater than Death and all that.) Agreed. But I'm sure a lot of readers felt intellectually stimulated by such musings. Cue the pale twenty-something wannabe philosopher dressed in a long black raincoat who says in a cavernous voice, between two long drags on his French cigarette, "...there is no point... That is the point..." A beautiful and bittersweet moment that was carefully set up previously and that will lead to the intricate consequences that follow. I really liked it, but you're correct: it's not as much of a page-turner as the previous volumes. In fact, I don't think it's a spoiler to mention that this will be true of the rest of the series: it becomes more and more plot-oriented, a whole lot less comic-booky. To paraphrase Barry's Temple of Godzilla, "a lot more people talking about stuff and a lot less giant monsters bashing each other". |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 13, 2020 11:28:10 GMT -5
Gaiman always came across, to me, as a slicker version of Moore, who knew how to turn a phrase, created interesting characters, but didn't always land his stories. I agree with the last part of this statement, but absolutely disagree with the bolded part. I think Moore's writing and the narrative "voice" he uses in most of his work is much more sophisticated that Gaiman's. Moore writes like a "proper" adult prose author, whereas with Gaiman there's always hints of comic booky level writing, albeit "For Mature Readers" comic books, rather than the more familiar Superman-style writing. This is the "adolescent voice" I mentioned in my review, and I've definitely noticed it popping up throughout The Sandman. I don't want to be too harsh on Gaiman though; he is an excellent writer, for sure, and I'm really enjoying The Sandman overall. But, for me anyway, he doesn't ever quite reach the heights that Moore is capable of at his best. His Miracleman was more an exploration of the post-Moore world and he had just started his first real meaty storyline, when things started falling apart at Eclipse. Oh yeah, I'd forgotten about Gaiman's Miracleman. I misspoke then: I had read all of Gaiman's Miracleman before encountering The Sandman. But there again, that, to me, is the perfect illustration of how the quality of the two authors' work differs. Upon first reading Moore's Miracleman, it often made me shake my head in amazement at the intellectual quality of the writing and, on occasion, I would even be pushed to exclaiming out loud, "Holy s**t, this is good!" Gaiman's continuation of the story is very good, and definitely a worthy successor to Moore's, but, I dunno, it always felt a little intellectually muddled to me...a bit like The Sandman does on occasion. I mean, it's well-written, but it's hard to know exactly what he's trying to achieve with it and, dare I say it, Gaiman's navel-gazing is a tad boring. I mean, I know he's only done 6 issues of Miracleman so far (we live in hope that all we'll live long enough to see it finished!), but in that time not a busting lot actually happened. Compare that to Moore's first 6 issues of Miracleman? There's also the attendant question in my mind as to whether Miracleman needed to be continued after Moore. The story had reached something of a climax anyway: Miracleman had settled down, the world was completely changed, and there didn't seem much left to be said. Not that that's necessarily Gaiman's fault; it's just an observation. His audience in the 90s was mostly late teens to mid-20s, a lot of angsty people posing at being hip and cool, who kind of over-exaggerated his skill as a writer. At the same time, I've known people who had some pretty unhappy childhoods who really found comfort in his work, so it really depends on how you come to his work. But I'm sure a lot of readers felt intellectually stimulated by such musings. Cue the pale twenty-something wannabe philosopher dressed in a long black raincoat who says in a cavernous voice, between two long drags on his French cigarette, "...there is no point... That is the point..." Yeah, this is the impression I get and why, I'm guessing, the writing feels a little adolescent at times. There's also, in some of the earlier issues (especially the diner massacre issue) a lot of what I think I described in my review as the sort of writing that a 15-year-old boy would consider edgy, grown-up writing, as opposed to actual grown-up writing. Still, his conversation between Death and Hob, where Death says, "You got what everyone gets; you got a lifetime." has had deeper meaning for me, when I lost my father, my wife's mother, and a good friend (and huge Gaiman fan) in the span of about 6-8 months. Sometimes Neil just nailed it. Oh, for sure. I think you could argue that Death is the character that Gaiman writes best. The "You got what everyone gets; you got a lifetime" line is one that resonated with me too and sticks in the memory for that very reason. |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 13, 2020 11:44:07 GMT -5
Something that doesn't sit particularly well with me in this quest is that Delirium causes an awful lot of real damage on Earth, which she seems blissfully unaware of. Even Dream seems disinterested in how his sister's presence effects the mortals she encounters. For example, at one point Delirium curses a highway patrolman, who, quite sensibly, has pulled her over due to her hugely dangerous driving, with visions of insects crawling all over his body forever... Later on in the book we see that the unfortunate cop will indeed have to spend the rest of his life in a tortured and psychotic state, which seems more than a little unfair. He was, after all, only doing his job! That two of the Endless should capriciously inflict such cruel torture on a mortal, when there were any number of kinder alternatives, leaves a bad taste in my mouth. That actually works very well for me, because it reinforces the idea that these aren't simply very powerful beings (as would be, say, Marvel's Asgardians) but the embodiment of universal absolutes akin to forces of nature, but a quantum leap greater. They are presented as characters, generally likable (except for desire, who mostly plays the villain) but like forces of nature they can be absolutely destructive, relentless, and unfair. Even Dream, our main character, can be a right @$$**** when he wants to. Delirium looks all cute and inoffensive, even in her not-quite-coherent way, but she is the embodiment of a most horrible reality: that of loss of contact with reality. As such, I'd expect her to do many horrible things. As I would expect all of the Endless to do, come to think of it. That's a really interesting point of view. I'm not sure I wholly agree with it, but what you're saying certainly makes sense. Hmmmm...food for thought there, RR. Incidentally, while we're on the subject of Morpheus's past loves, Dream's assistant Lucien mentions another former lover of Dream's named Elanora, but I don't believe that she's been referenced in the series before. So, I'm thinking that this might be something that will tie into later events, perhaps? Isn't she the lady who was the origin of the dream world in which Barbie found herself in "A Game of You"? The one we see just at the end, when Dream erases that world? Ooh, good memory, man! I just dug out my copy of "A Game of You" and the lady you refer to is named Alianora, not Elanora. However, Morpheus does refer to her as his "old love", so maybe it's the same person? A quick Google seems to show that there is speculation among fans that they are the same person, but it's unknown whether they actually are, due to the differences in name. Maybe Gaiman intended it to be the same person and he just goofed in a Stan Lee "Peter Palmer" manner? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 13, 2020 19:28:31 GMT -5
By slicker I mean in selling himself and his writing to the audience. I agree that Moore is more sophisticated; but, Gaiman is more media savy and knows how to play to his audience. When he was the hot darling of comics, he dressed like a rock star, doing interviews at the Rolling Stone offices or some such (and he was a music journalist, prior to comics). Always with the black aviator sunglasses, black leather jacket, black t-shirt, black jeans. He played the role to the hilt, minus the entitled whining (at least, as far as I ever heard, from his appearances). He always had a rep of being polite and engaging, if reserved; so I mean more the image of a rock star, rather than the attitude. He once said the sunglasses were because he had a sensitivity to light. I noticed when he became a darling of the literary world, the sunglasses disappeared and the rock star wardrobe was given a bit of variety.
I think Gaiman was better at the business of writing, certainly comics. He had Moore's example to follow, which is probably part of why he had a rep as being a tough negotiator, with his contracts. Journalism experience probably helped, there. Moore has always struck me as having wider literary influences, while Gaiman has more that come from other media, aside from the literary and comics. Both work in music; but, you get the feeling that Moore's leanings are more eclectic. Then again, I have always felt Moore played to his audience and has cultivated the eccentric persona because it gets him the attention he wants, while he can still make himself seem like an iconoclast.
I don't mean to sound like I am slagging off Gaiman, as I love much of his writing. I just think some people when a bit nuts with fan worship. I did love James Owen's Little Neil character, in his Starchild series, with the big sunglasses and leather jacket. One of the few issues I ever saw did a Little Neil back-up story where the Marty Feldman character and some others burst into a bedroom, waking up Little Neil, showering him with praise, then it turns out they thought it was Alan Moore's bedroom. As I recall, Gaiman enjoyed the ribbing.
Now, some Sandman fans just needed to get of their Goth butts and go do something constructive, rather than endlessly quote Death or Morpheus, or debate Lou Reed should play Dream or some other thin, sad looking person of likely rock star origin, while smoking clove cigarettes. At least, the ones that used to come into Barnes & Noble. My comic shop was filled more with guys who thought Wolverine was literature. Not many of us there reading Vertigo and I think I was the only one reading stuff like American Century.
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Post by thwhtguardian on Jun 14, 2020 5:16:26 GMT -5
You should definitely pick up Overture, it's worth it just for the art alone.
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Post by chaykinstevens on Jun 14, 2020 7:13:39 GMT -5
I mean, I know he's only done 6 issues of Miracleman so far (we live in hope that all we'll live long enough to see it finished!), but in that time not a busting lot actually happened. Eclipse published eight issues of Miracleman by Gaiman. |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 14, 2020 11:33:56 GMT -5
I mean, I know he's only done 6 issues of Miracleman so far (we live in hope that all we'll live long enough to see it finished!), but in that time not a busting lot actually happened. Eclipse published eight issues of Miracleman by Gaiman. Ah, I see from the GCD that you're right. I only came to this series with the 2013 Marvel Comics reprints, and they only published 6 issues of Gaiman's run by the time the series went on hiatus, which is why I assumed that's all Gaiman had done for Eclipse. The first two installments of "The Silver Age" were left un-reprinted by Marvel, presumably so that they could be published when Gaiman had finished the story. We're still waiting.  |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 14, 2020 13:10:07 GMT -5
Yeah, Gaiman has allegedly been working on them since then.
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Post by Confessor on Jun 14, 2020 17:48:55 GMT -5
Yeah, Gaiman has allegedly been working on them since then. I think "allegedly" is the key word here. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jun 14, 2020 18:25:34 GMT -5
Yeah, Gaiman has allegedly been working on them since then. I think "allegedly" is the key word here. I've always wondered if Marvel jumped the gun and Gaiman had agreed, in principle, to finish the series; but that they were very far apart contractually, given his rep as a negotiator. Especially considering his involvement in Hollywood and the literary world. I kind of get the impression, given the length the fight went with McFarlane, that Gaiman isn't going to do it on the cheap or without profit participation. |
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Post by Confessor on Jun 14, 2020 23:12:42 GMT -5
I think "allegedly" is the key word here. I've always wondered if Marvel jumped the gun and Gaiman had agreed, in principle, to finish the series; but that they were very far apart contractually, given his rep as a negotiator. Especially considering his involvement in Hollywood and the literary world. I kind of get the impression, given the length the fight went with McFarlane, that Gaiman isn't going to do it on the cheap or without profit participation. You might well be right, especially since you seem to know that Gaiman is such a savvy negotiator. Last I heard, which would've been back in 2019, Gaiman had almost finished Miracleman and we could expect the next issue from Marvel at some point in mid-2020. If memory serves that was an announcement from Marvel though, rather than Gaiman, and, of course, nothing's been solicited thus far. Although the whole coronavirus thing has gotten in the way of new solicitations anyway. As I say, we live in hope.  |
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jun 15, 2020 11:29:18 GMT -5
It has honestly been a number of years since I've read Brief Lives (or really any of the later arcs of Sandman). Will try to give it a re-read when I find a bit of time so I can comment with something besides vague generalities.
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Post by impulse on Jun 15, 2020 12:37:13 GMT -5
Hmm. It's been probably close to a decade since I read through The Sandman. I've recently relocated and have access to my TPBs. Might hit that up at some point to see how it comes offer closer to my 40s than my 20s.
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I would post a scan of this sequence, but it's decidedly NSFW.
