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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 12:13:24 GMT -5
I'm reading the current issue of Alter Ego, which examines the possible predecessors of comic's greatest super-heroes. There's mention of Frank Foster's designs for a hero that some believe may have inspired Batman.
My forum search skills are lax at best. I did try and search for a topic, but I am to forum searching what Homer Simpson is to life. My forum searching skills are woeful. But I couldn't find a thread.
Around ten years ago, I did see a site devoted to "Original Batman", which mentioned Frank Foster.
I haven't finished reading the relevant article in Alter Ego. But I am three quarters of the way through. I can't even begin to understand the complexities of it all. Hey, isn't someone on this forum a lawyer? Where are they? Anyway, I have to admit, if this was a jury, let me just say I'm thinking about a lot of things right now.
Most compelling was scans of a three-page letter from Frank Foster's wife, Ruth, written in 1975 - and which details Foster's attempts to sell the concept. I won't type the letter out in full, but if you can read it, it does really make me think.
I don't want to engage in hubris here. I think one would need to study this in-depth for days and days before forming a sincere opinion. But the letters were compelling, I will say that.
I am also aware of the fact that a lot of things are derivative - and deciding where one thing ends and another begins is hard. I mean, the likes of the Lone Ranger and Zorro may have inspired Batman, but we wouldn't call him a rip-off of either of those. It is an incredibly nuanced issue.
I'd welcome any views on this!
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Post by codystarbuck on Dec 19, 2019 16:05:09 GMT -5
The problem you run into in anything like this is the further you go back, the more inspirations you can find. When it comes to the law, it boils down to who had a copyright or trademark first. National had a copyright and trademark on the name. Stolen? Mary Roberts Rinehart's play, The Bat Whispers was created for the stage in 1920 and filmed in 1926 and 1930. Both were stated as inspirations for Batman. The film version features bat shadows and a masked villain. Here is an image from the 1926 version...  The concept of Bruce Wayne, bored playboy and a masked vigilante goes back to Johnston McCulley's Zorro, which too the idea from Baroness Orczy's The Scarlet Pimpernel, etc..... In 1915, French silent film director Louis Feuillade created a serial, about a criminal gang, called Les Vampires. Central to the story is a female member of the gang, Irma Vep, who appears in a black bodystocking and mask and in a bat costume, on stage...  Feuillade also created a serial about a cloaked avenger called Judex. He wears a large hat and dark cloak, operates from a secret lair, and seeks revenge on a crooked banker who wronged him. The character is an obvious inspiration for the Shadow and Batman, some 20 years before. The plot itself is borrowed from Alexandre Dumas' The Count of Monte Cristo. Weird Tales published "The Vampire Master, in 1933, with this image...  ...possibly inspired by Les Vampires. So, you see, the Foster Case doesn't have enough unique ideas to stand up to scrutiny in court. Here's Foster's designs...  Not that similar to Batman, nor all that unique. You can find all kinds of images from pulp magazines that could be similar. Als, it wasn't published; so, how could Kane or Bill Finger see them? Foster's family claims he left work at DC and had it returned, saying they couldn't use them; but, it is all memory, which is poor evidence in court. Their documentation is a letter, 40 years later. No lawyer would touch this, except to bleed legal fees out of the Fosters. Kane and Finger each swiped inspiration from other sources; but, this one is highly unlikely. The website devoted to it makes great leaps to a conclusion, on the basis of little or no evidence and says there is no doubt. It's massaging scant evidence to fit a conclusion, not reaching a conclusion from a reasoned analysis of the facts. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 16:08:19 GMT -5
Thank you, Cody. I hadn't heard of most of those, plus your logic is sound.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2019 18:12:05 GMT -5
Link to Foster's Idea ... Excellent Material here and I believe that he should be considered as a creator of Batman too. Since you've bought this up ... I think you hit us with some serious talk about it. I think he should be mentioned in the same breath as Bill Finger and Bob Kane. Cei-U should provides us with insights on Frank Foster here. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Dec 19, 2019 21:49:34 GMT -5
Mary Roberts Rinehart's play, The Bat Whispers was created for the stage in 1920 and filmed in 1926 and 1930. Both were stated as inspirations for Batman. The film version features bat shadows and a masked villain. Here is an image from the 1926 version... Flashing a Bat signal in 1926: |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 15:42:02 GMT -5
Alter Ego is a very wordy magazine (which is good!). So I pace myself with it. Now I'm on the pages dealing with Hal Sherman and Wonder Woman. That is quite a compelling story. I'm sure people know more than me about this, but it is certainly making me think - a lot more than the Foster/Batman anecdotes.
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Post by chadwilliam on Dec 23, 2019 16:42:57 GMT -5
I think the word "creation" is too strong to define what Foster had here - "idea" would be more appropriate, I think. And as someone who regards Bob Kane as a thief who stole credit for Batman from Bill Finger despite Kane likely being the one who came up with the name "Bat-Man' and one or two other details, I can't rightly also think that Foster - who seems to have had about as many ideas for his Batman as Kane did for Finger's - somehow deserves credit which I wouldn't give Kane. All we really have is a name, the face of his alter-ego, and a costume and only one of those three matches. It is interesting to me that Foster has the costumed superhero look down in 1932 one year before Siegel and Shuster created Superman (well, a Superman) and four years before Lee Falk introduced The Phantom which makes me wonder how inevitable certain ideas are - surely, Siegel and Shuster didn't get their idea for the circus performer/tights outfit for Superman from Foster and obviously, Falk didn't get it from them. It's why I think you need to check off a certain number of boxes before you can say "aha! We have enough ideas here to now say we've created something!" As for the likelihood of this being a coincidence? At around the same DC released Batman (Detective 27 is cover dated May, 1939), Thrilling Publications released a similar character called The Black Bat (July, 1939).  It's generally accepted that neither side knew that they were about to debut such similar looking bat-themed characters until they hit the stands and as such, this bit of synchronicity has long been chalked up to genuine coincidence rather than malicious theft (Bill Finger apparently came up with the idea for adding gauntlets to Batman's gloves from The Black Bat after the fact and The Black Bat's acid to the face while serving in court as DA certainly sounds like it inspired Two-Face's origin, but those examples, as mentioned, came after Finger had already created Batman). In short, I think if a name and an outfit is enough to create something, then I could easily create about 50 superheroes by the end of the day, especially if the outfit doesn't have to match whatever it is a later creator comes up with. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 23, 2019 17:27:14 GMT -5
Good points.
The Hal Sherman/Wonder Woman things seems a little bit more convincing, and if you can track down a copy of Alter Ego (should you desire to), that story is well worth a read. But I think I'm with you guys on Foster/Batman.
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