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Post by hondobrode on Jan 8, 2020 10:36:04 GMT -5
I'm a sucker for crossovers.
Don't know why DC and Marvel couldn't coordinate once a year for a mini and split the profits, alternating years for each company's creative team.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 10:37:08 GMT -5
Like Cei-U! said above, I'm not advocating DC/Marvel joining worlds. I would like a regular "taste" each year to enjoy, like a 6 issue mini-series or a Giant Size annual where the stories take place in the Shared Universe. Let that be the BIG SUMMER EVENT. Cuts out all of the set up and meaningless reasons trying to create reason's for the stories and takes us right into the fun of everything, and they would REMEMBER any meetings or any team-ups or confrontations that occurred previously. There are two issues I have with the separate universes approach (although I admit JLA/Avengers did it well). Firstly, you have to keep coming up with reasons for dimension-hopping. Some big bad has to threaten the multiverse. We have to spend time setting up the trip between universes. And one explanation is gonna pretty much be like another as time progresses. Simply having Clark Kent show up on assignment in New York City, or Bruce Banner seeking out S.T.A.R. Labs, is a) simplistic, and b) doesn't require a lot of set up. In less than a page, a modern crossover could have Bruce Banner simply hitching a ride to S.T.A.R. Labs or show Hal Jordan's aircraft entering Latverian airspace. Secondly, for me, it sucks the fun out of things and is a bit too meta-fiction for my liking. Yes, the heroes commenting on each other's Earths in JLA/Avengers was fun, but there is always an exception to the rule. I like to suspend disbelief. Superman telling someone that he has heard whispers about Galactus' appearance from heroes in another universe, or the slightly fanboy aspect of DC heroes commenting on the hostility of Marvel Earth civilians, is something that indirectly reminds me I am reading fiction - rather than allowing me to fully engross myself in the tales. I know I'm reading fiction, but I don't want to be reminded of it! Simply having Clark Kent show up in New York keeps me fully absorbed in the tale I am reading. But that's just me.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,222
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Post by Confessor on Jan 8, 2020 10:37:44 GMT -5
Like Slam I really dislike inter-company crossovers as a rule. If they absolutely have to happen though I vote for seperate universes. Never the Twain shall meet!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 10:42:05 GMT -5
I love that post! I have a confession to make: non-canon is a swear word to me. When I'm World President, non-canon adventures (anywhere) will be banned. Have the courage of your convictions. Don't give us the best DC/Marvel crossover ever ( Superman and Spider-Man, 1981) and then tell us, years later, that it may or may not have happened; don't make it non-canon and reveal it took place on Earth-Whatever. Let it stand as canon. Let it stand as "just another adventure" in the lives of the Man of Steel and the web-slinger. I realise some multiverse adventures are needed. The Earth histories of Star Trek and Planet of the Apes don't really reconcile so dimension-hopping is needed there. But there is absolutely no reason, in my humble opinion, why DC and Marvel heroes can't exist on the same Earth. For me, "Canon" is the bannable word. Writers should have the liberty to do what they want without having to make up dimension-hopping excuses for anything. Superman should be able to meet Spider-Man or Magnum P.I. or Dick Tracy or Mickey Mouse, and it's up to the author to have them say "Funny we never met before" or "Hey, great to see you again!" As long as what results is a good story, that's all that matters. For me, canon is important because it's about taking ownership of a fictional universe, being accountable, and being creative. Weren't DC's Star Trek: The Next Generation (and TOS) comics canon? I thought I'd read they were. And for me, that means the writers had to be creative. The writers on DC Comics' TNG comic came up with some tremendous storylines perhaps *because* of it being canon. They couldn't just have a planet or ship blown up. Or have Q killed. Or feature Starfleet infiltrated. No, because they had to write within the constraints of canon, it made it all the more worthwhile and satisfying. It really did. Scenario 1: a non-canonical TNG comic could have an editor say, "Oh, just blow up the Klingon homeworld, it's not like we have to fit it in with the TV series." Scenario 2: a canonical TNG comic would have an editor say, "I want a major threat to the Klingon homeworld, but think about the constraints from Paramount. We've got to make this threat work, but it has to be done this way and that way - after all, the Klingon homeworld will be featured heavily in the next TV season." Without canon, and this is just a personal view, there aren't consequences. If a non-canonical TNG comic features a particular homeworld blown up, or a character's family member hurt, what does it matter? If it's non-canonical, it's as disposable as yesterday's toilet roll. However, if it is canon, it adds something to the mythos. It becomes part of a fictional universe's tapestry. That is why it matters to me. Superman and Spider-Man is my favourite DC/Marvel crossover. I wish it was canon. That it can be explained away as happening on one of a trillion Earths, if it really happened at all, irks me a tad.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2020 10:59:32 GMT -5
Separate! I simply can't make a shared Marvel/DC universe make any sense in my head.
If they existed on the same Earth, they'd be running into each other all the time, rather than just on those special occasions.
Cute "homages" like the Squadron Supreme wouldn't have a point.
As explored in JLA/Avengers, the styles and tones of the worlds are too different.
And I'm sure there are a million other in-story details that would contradict each other.
So how did Batman and the Hulk meet up? Wellllll that's where I can get a little fuzzy in my thinking I suppose. The same way I can accept that middle aged characters today fought in WWII.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 11:08:35 GMT -5
If they existed on the same Earth, they'd be running into each other all the time, rather than just on those special occasions. But how do we know they don't? We only see what we see. Perhaps suspension of disbelief can lead to us imagining that there's an "Untold Batman/Iron Fist encounter" that occurred. We haven't seen it yet. But we will if DC and Marvel ever do it. Iron Fist and Cap don't run into each other all of the time. Spider-Man and Green Goblin can tear up New York time and time again without Cap, Iron Man, Thor and the FF intervening. Where were other heroes when the Matador was cleaning Daredevil's clock? Juggernaut often causes a rampage in New York, but you never see the FF or Iron Man showing up to deal with him, usually the X-Men or others. Everyone's view is valid, but I am of the mindset that what you have never seen doesn't equate to it didn't happen. We haven't seen Iron Fist take a bath but I'm pretty sure it has happened. Suspension of disbelief and all that could lead us to say, for instance, "Superman and Captain America have had numerous phone calls and encounters, we just haven't seen them published yet." Perhaps the Avengers and JLA, or some representatives, meet often for intelligence-sharing purposes, we just don't see it because we don't see every aspect of a character's life. And that doesn't just apply to intercompany crossovers. I might have bought 12 Spidey comics back in the day, but I didn't presume Spidey had 12 battles a year. I presumed he had others - we just hadn't seen them yet. And maybe the "Unseen Spidey stories" included him teaming with Batman, Flash, Aquaman, etc.
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Post by brutalis on Jan 8, 2020 11:46:48 GMT -5
And most of the DC heroes populate fictional cities that are replica's meant to resemble the real thing. So Metropolis, Gotham, Central and Midway, Coast and all those DC cities heroes are in a whole different location than the Marvel heroes. So running into each other isn't going to be a common everyday thing. Occasional crossings and specific destination (oh look, Lex Luthor crossed the city line into Manhattan, so what if that's where Spidey swings, Supes is still going to get his villain) meet ups will happen, but often. Supes to Bats: hey, lets do lunch in NYC cuz they have the best Pastrami on Rye around or Karate Kid pops out of the future dropping into Chinatown for some traditional home made Lo Mein and finding Chi and Fist doing dinner would be "fan"tastic. Spidey clinging to a bus as he goes after Doc Ock because his web fluid ran out and the bus makes a left into Gotham and Spidey going dagnabbit, now I have to put up with that dang grim and grumpy dude in the bat suit....oh wait, I just need to get out of Gotham before nightfall hahahahahaha. That is fun and funny which makes the Shared Universe concept so entertaining.
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Post by rberman on Jan 8, 2020 11:47:04 GMT -5
For me, "Canon" is the bannable word. Writers should have the liberty to do what they want without having to make up dimension-hopping excuses for anything. Superman should be able to meet Spider-Man or Magnum P.I. or Dick Tracy or Mickey Mouse, and it's up to the author to have them say "Funny we never met before" or "Hey, great to see you again!" As long as what results is a good story, that's all that matters. For me, canon is important because it's about taking ownership of a fictional universe, being accountable, and being creative. Weren't DC's Star Trek: The Next Generation (and TOS) comics canon? I thought I'd read they were. And for me, that means the writers had to be creative. The writers on DC Comics' TNG comic came up with some tremendous storylines perhaps *because* of it being canon. They couldn't just have a planet or ship blown up. Or have Q killed. Or feature Starfleet infiltrated. No, because they had to write within the constraints of canon, it made it all the more worthwhile and satisfying. It really did. Scenario 1: a non-canonical TNG comic could have an editor say, "Oh, just blow up the Klingon homeworld, it's not like we have to fit it in with the TV series." Scenario 2: a canonical TNG comic would have an editor say, "I want a major threat to the Klingon homeworld, but think about the constraints from Paramount. We've got to make this threat work, but it has to be done this way and that way - after all, the Klingon homeworld will be featured heavily in the next TV season." Without canon, and this is just a personal view, there aren't consequences. If a non-canonical TNG comic features a particular homeworld blown up, or a character's family member hurt, what does it matter? If it's non-canonical, it's as disposable as yesterday's toilet roll. However, if it is canon, it adds something to the mythos. It becomes part of a fictional universe's tapestry. That is why it matters to me. Superman and Spider-Man is my favourite DC/Marvel crossover. I wish it was canon. That it can be explained away as happening on one of a trillion Earths, if it really happened at all, irks me a tad. Cinema and comic books are different media, and demanding that they synchronize continuity sounds like a way to straitjacket the writers. For instance, Chewbacca was killed in a novel during the long years (both real time and story time) between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens. But it would be silly for the filmmakers to feel bound by all the continuity of the Star Wars Expanded Universe. So they didn't have to say "Chewie is alive again because X." Instead they rightly ignored the book. Similarly the MCU has seen great success by treating the comic books as a smorgasbord of possibilities rather than a Bible that may not be transgressed. Even in comic books, dumb precedents get ignored all the time. Remember when this happened ( Action Comics #267, Jerry Siegel)? That was super-dumb to think that if the Legionnaires met Superboy, then it would have to be a different generation of Legionnaires who met Supergirl. A different generation who had exactly the same powers, code names, and appearances as their parents. Dumb. So it was just forgotten. (Until Grant Morrison resurrects it for a gag in the near future. You heard it here first.) Canon is not what makes stories meaningful. Good writing is what makes them meaningful. Past stories might (and often do) provide good material for future stories, or maybe the opposite. When Joss Whedon took over X-Men, he wanted to tell a "Kitty and Colossus" story to pick up abandoned plot threads from the mid 1980s. But Colossus had been dead for years. Whedon didn't completely ignore the canonicity of Colossus' death, but he didn't make a six issue "Resurrection of Colossus" arc out of it either. He just had the characters note the inconsistency in four panels, and he moved on. In his work on "Buffy the Vampire Slayer," he called this "hanging a lampshade" on continuity chasms. DC understands the need to reject continuity too, which is why they keep rebooting the multiverse. But they also realize that fans are overly attached to continuity, so they feel compelled to have "event stories" to justify the reboots.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 12:06:20 GMT -5
And most of the DC heroes populate fictional cities that are replica's meant to resemble the real thing. So Metropolis, Gotham, Central and Midway, Coast and all those DC cities heroes are in a whole different location than the Marvel heroes. So running into each other isn't going to be a common everyday thing. Occasional crossings and specific destination (oh look, Lex Luthor crossed the city line into Manhattan, so what if that's where Spidey swings, Supes is still going to get his villain) meet ups will happen, but often. Supes to Bats: hey, lets do lunch in NYC cuz they have the best Pastrami on Rye around or Karate Kid pops out of the future dropping into Chinatown for some traditional home made Lo Mein and finding Chi and Fist doing dinner would be "fan"tastic. Spidey clinging to a bus as he goes after Doc Ock because his web fluid ran out and the bus makes a left into Gotham and Spidey going dagnabbit, now I have to put up with that dang grim and grumpy dude in the bat suit....oh wait, I just need to get out of Gotham before nightfall hahahahahaha. That is fun and funny which makes the Shared Universe concept so entertaining. Perfect! This is the kind of thing I am thinking about. For me, it's rather cold and soulless to force writers to come up with yet another multiverse tale and a dimension-hopping reason to get Spidey into Gotham. How many times do we read that before it gets old? It's just my view, and all views are valid here, but that just gets tedious. I suspect a Superman/Spider-Man crossover done today would require 10-12 pages of exposition as the latest cosmic being, Access or otherwise, has to convince one of them to breach the barrier and travel to the other universe. A simple scenario, like Spider-Man being on that bus you mention as it heads into Gotham, not only requires less exposition, but is a lot more fun. I was quite happy when I read that Batman/Hulk crossover - and saw Bats tell Gordon how he'd always held a file on the Hulk at his Batcave. Makes sense, really. Given the possibility of the Hulk's rampage ending up in Gotham, Bats was being pragmatic. Although they are only little moments, they count for me. The other one, as stated in my first post, was about Wonder Woman telling Spidey she'd often planned to hunt him down. Or the Teen Titans' hearing whispers about Dark Phoenix. These little things would have brought me joy if they'd continued the shared Earth policy (and although it was a different Earth, I'm glad Bats and Cap went down that road in Byrne's tale). It needn't be anything big. I could imagine a Spidey/Supes team-up where it starts with the conclusion of a Spidey/Sinister Six battle. As the Man of Steel and web-slinger become acquainted again, I'd like something such as Superman saying, "When I heard it on the news, although I thought you could handle it, I was ready to come and wrap up the Sinister Six for you." It can be something small but meaningful to me. Or Cap saying to Batman, "While the Avengers handle planetary problems, trust me, we do have files on your most dangerous villains. Mister Freeze, especially after his latest plot, was on our radar."
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 8, 2020 12:16:45 GMT -5
Honestly the only Marvel/DC crossover I've ever liked was Batman/Captain America. Part of it is that anything set in the past is going to get a leg up on me. Probably more importantly is that it was pretty much treated as an Elseworlds book which made the issues of how the x-over came about moot. And it was early enough in the career of Captain America that it didn't matter that they'd not run into each other before.
The various Planetary cross-overs (though I like them a LOT less than any other part of the book) are easier to deal with simply because of the nature of the book.
But overall...Bleh!
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Post by profh0011 on Jan 8, 2020 12:39:42 GMT -5
I'm more interested in the TOY crossovers. I used to set up action figures from various lines on display together, especially at Christmastime, when I'd have various robots standing around a miniature Christmas tree on top of the file cabinet at work. My favorite bit was having the LOST IN SPACE Robot standing next to " Lucifer" from BATTLESTAR GALACTICA. (There's a whole story there.)
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2020 12:56:09 GMT -5
If they existed on the same Earth, they'd be running into each other all the time, rather than just on those special occasions. But how do we know they don't? We only see what we see. Perhaps suspension of disbelief can lead to us imagining that there's an "Untold Batman/Iron Fist encounter" that occurred. We haven't seen it yet. But we will if DC and Marvel ever do it. Iron Fist and Cap don't run into each other all of the time. Spider-Man and Green Goblin can tear up New York time and time again without Cap, Iron Man, Thor and the FF intervening. Where were other heroes when the Matador was cleaning Daredevil's clock? Juggernaut often causes a rampage in New York, but you never see the FF or Iron Man showing up to deal with him, usually the X-Men or others. Everyone's view is valid, but I am of the mindset that what you have never seen doesn't equate to it didn't happen. We haven't seen Iron Fist take a bath but I'm pretty sure it has happened. Suspension of disbelief and all that could lead us to say, for instance, "Superman and Captain America have had numerous phone calls and encounters, we just haven't seen them published yet." Perhaps the Avengers and JLA, or some representatives, meet often for intelligence-sharing purposes, we just don't see it because we don't see every aspect of a character's life. And that doesn't just apply to intercompany crossovers. I might have bought 12 Spidey comics back in the day, but I didn't presume Spidey had 12 battles a year. I presumed he had others - we just hadn't seen them yet. And maybe the "Unseen Spidey stories" included him teaming with Batman, Flash, Aquaman, etc. Daredevil doesn't need anyone's help with Matador. Juggernaut has run into Spider-Man at least a couple times, but as strong as he is, he's not really high level enough to require the Avengers or FF. When a cosmic threat turns up in new York in an FF comic, the Avengers usually show up though.
or the storyline with Annihilus that came a little later and crossed over into both books.
...or look at all the team-up books.
Even if they didn't encounter each other, there's be references in conversation. Stories in the Daily Bugle.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2020 13:02:29 GMT -5
If they existed on the same Earth, they'd be running into each other all the time, rather than just on those special occasions. But how do we know they don't? We only see what we see. Perhaps suspension of disbelief can lead to us imagining that there's an "Untold Batman/Iron Fist encounter" that occurred. We haven't seen it yet. But we will if DC and Marvel ever do it. Iron Fist and Cap don't run into each other all of the time. Spider-Man and Green Goblin can tear up New York time and time again without Cap, Iron Man, Thor and the FF intervening. Where were other heroes when the Matador was cleaning Daredevil's clock? Juggernaut often causes a rampage in New York, but you never see the FF or Iron Man showing up to deal with him, usually the X-Men or others. Everyone's view is valid, but I am of the mindset that what you have never seen doesn't equate to it didn't happen. We haven't seen Iron Fist take a bath but I'm pretty sure it has happened. Suspension of disbelief and all that could lead us to say, for instance, "Superman and Captain America have had numerous phone calls and encounters, we just haven't seen them published yet." Perhaps the Avengers and JLA, or some representatives, meet often for intelligence-sharing purposes, we just don't see it because we don't see every aspect of a character's life. And that doesn't just apply to intercompany crossovers. I might have bought 12 Spidey comics back in the day, but I didn't presume Spidey had 12 battles a year. I presumed he had others - we just hadn't seen them yet. And maybe the "Unseen Spidey stories" included him teaming with Batman, Flash, Aquaman, etc. It's negative-space continuity, and taxidriver's thoughts are exactly how I view it. The fact that this view also dispenses with the need for setting up the universes-hopping mechanism is a happy side-effect. The pressing question we continuity buffs are avoiding: How do you file your inter-company cross-overs? Mine are inserted into my DCU collection. I came *this* close to getting two copies of each, one each for my collection of each company involved. I'm happy to report I am not quite that obsessive.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Jan 8, 2020 13:10:57 GMT -5
Even in comic books, dumb precedents get ignored all the time. Remember when this happened ( Action Comics #267, Jerry Siegel)? That was super-dumb to think that if the Legionnaires met Superboy, then it would have to be a different generation of Legionnaires who met Supergirl. A different generation who had exactly the same powers, code names, and appearances as their parents. Dumb. So it was just forgotten. (Until Grant Morrison resurrects it for a gag in the near future. You heard it here first.) Funny you should mention that ... because DC's rebooted the Legion a bunch of times but never caught the balance between pleasing both old fans and new fans ... I've thought for some time this is how they ought to handle the series. Go back to the original continuity but gives us the next generation. Some of them would be almost indistinguishable from their parents, some with two Legionnaire parents might have powers combined in interesting ways, and some would be completely original. Getting back on topic ... honestly I don't have a preference, although as others have said a lot depends on the type of story. I never got all that enthralled with JLA/Avengers honestly, but it did have its high points. But most of these crossovers are relatively small scale. Most Batman stories don't benefit from becoming interdimensional epics. So for the most part I prefer 'Earth Crossover' as a venue unless a story truly merits it.
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Post by badwolf on Jan 8, 2020 13:21:11 GMT -5
The pressing question everyone we continuity buffs are avoiding: How do you file your inter-company cross-overs? Mine are inserted into my DCU collection. I came *this* close to getting two copies of each, one each for my collection of each company involved. I'm happy to report I am not quite that obsessive. All my comics are filed alphabetically by title. Companies don't enter into it at all.
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