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Post by Batflunkie on Jul 12, 2020 22:26:10 GMT -5
Jim's ego can rub people the wrong way. But I feel sorry for him. Was glad he did the blog years ago so we can get his POV for once. He's a geek in a monster's body. As a teen breaking in, he was taught by strict DC bosses and carried the "right way" to do comics. Appreciated the Marvel creative process better. Stan and Jack hero worship. He was a boss and hated for it. We all had roles we assume at work, and sometimes people's feelings get hurt. Most of the complaints and rants from ex-writers and artists sound babyish. When Jim was wrong, he owns up to it. Jim carried himself purely as an ambassador for the characters more so than for the writers or artists (even though he did champion better page rates and other such perks), which is as weird then as it is now. But I think with that mindset, he helped maintain a strict sense of consistency in the books that just hasn't been seen since. I feel bad for him that New Universe crashed and burned, but if it hadn't, we wouldn't have had Valiant |
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Post by rberman on Jul 13, 2020 4:47:25 GMT -5
Jim's ego can rub people the wrong way. But I feel sorry for him. Was glad he did the blog years ago so we can get his POV for once. He's a geek in a monster's body. As a teen breaking in, he was taught by strict DC bosses and carried the "right way" to do comics. Appreciated the Marvel creative process better. Stan and Jack hero worship. He was a boss and hated for it. We all had roles we assume at work, and sometimes people's feelings get hurt. Most of the complaints and rants from ex-writers and artists sound babyish. When Jim was wrong, he owns up to it. I always say when Shooter was in charge of Marvel, I bought as many as I could afford, every month. It was like crack. When he was gone, so was my enthusiasm. It was years later before I even knew who he was, and that he was driving the quality. I also always say that if NASA was led by a bunch of nice guys in the 60's we never would have made it to the moon. I have no trouble believing that Marvel would not have survived the 1980s without Shooter tightening the ship in terms of getting the books out on time. No money, no mission. At the same time, it can be dangerous to put someone with creative impulses in charge of production, because they want their finger (sometimes their whole hand, and sometimes it's balled in a fist) in the creative process of those whose work they are overseeing. There's a great interview with Frank Zappa explaining how this played out in the music industry, with a new wave of executives who thought they understood what the public wanted/needed, instead of just enabling experimental artists to do their thing: I do believe that Shooter advocated for better financial terms for the talent, at least to keep up with the competition and probably also because he remembered what it was like to be a writer. When you look at the list of talent that exited Marvel throughout Shooter's tenure, you may see a different reason that Marvel held no allure for you by the time Shooter himself got the axe. John Byrne Frank Miller George Perez Marv Wolfman Len Wein Steve Englehart Steve Gerber Keith Giffen Marshall Rogers Roger Stern A fellow could have made some pretty good comics with those guys still on his side. And DC did, even before Karen Berger created a haven for new talent like Alan Moore, Dave Gibbons, Neil Gaiman, Dave McKean, Brian Bolland, and Grant Morrison to flourish at Vertigo. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Jul 14, 2020 6:21:09 GMT -5
I did a quick check and in January 1986 , these were the creators still at Marvel:
Frank Miller
Jim Starlin
John Byrne
Moench
Gulacy
Simonson
Engelhart
There might be other's that I missed.
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Post by rberman on Jul 14, 2020 10:39:33 GMT -5
I did a quick check and in January 1986 , these were the creators still at Marvel: Frank Miller Jim Starlin John Byrne Moench Gulacy Simonson Engelhart There might be other's that I missed. I was talking about when Shooter left at the end of 1987. By then, Miller had started The Dark Knight (Feb 1986). Byrne had started on Man of Steel (July 1986). Englehart had hopped around between Marvel, DC, and indies. Simonson had already been at DC and was an ongoing bright spot at Marvel throughout the 80s. |
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Post by chaykinstevens on Aug 9, 2020 12:54:08 GMT -5
When you look at the list of talent that exited Marvel throughout Shooter's tenure, you may see a different reason that Marvel held no allure for you by the time Shooter himself got the axe. John Byrne Frank Miller George Perez Marv Wolfman Len Wein Steve Englehart Steve Gerber Keith Giffen Marshall Rogers Roger Stern When Shooter was fired, Stern was still writing his Avengers run, Rogers was pencilling Silver Surfer, Giffen was pencilling Justice, and Englehart, who had been driven out of Marvel by Gerry Conway in 1976 and returned under Shooter, was writing Fantastic Four, West Coast Avengers and Silver Surfer. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 9, 2020 20:43:34 GMT -5
Just about every chief is fired at the end. The end of most things are ugly.
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Post by brutalis on Aug 10, 2020 10:30:59 GMT -5
Just about every chief is fired at the end. The end of most things are ugly. Truth. Being in charge means following orders from higher up that many times you may not agree with. You enforce many rules, ideas or choices that are insipid or make no sense, having to implement them without support or explanation. Sometimes you can do good, blocking and protecting staff but most times those are unknown and also can be unappreciated when known. Being the one held accountable for everyone else means when things go south or times are bad YOU are guaranteed to be the one taking the brunt of and all the heat for mistakes or revenue loss. When I was office manager for a company it was ALWAYS a fight and struggle between me, the staff working under me and the leaders above me. Constant issues and always both painful and emotional. There are going to be good and bad bosses. My 1st Director hiring me in the hospital was talented and appreciative of my abilities in her behalf while my final Director I just quit from was a yes person to those above her, always playing favorites and never had the best interests of staff. Being the accountable representative to the owners means you should recognize that your role is readily dispensable and won't be a permanent position... |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 10, 2020 11:24:07 GMT -5
Its a thankless job.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,874
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Post by shaxper on Aug 10, 2020 11:29:44 GMT -5
Every fricking time I see this thread bumped, I think the title is true for five seconds and get incredibly excited  |
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Post by Batflunkie on Aug 10, 2020 13:05:41 GMT -5
Every fricking time I see this thread bumped, I think the title is true for five seconds and get incredibly excited Same, it feels like beating a dead horse with a bat made of plastic explosives. |
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Post by sabongero on Aug 15, 2020 17:08:20 GMT -5
Yes! Go Jim Shoo.... awww shucks, fake-out. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Aug 15, 2020 18:36:11 GMT -5
Every fricking time I see this thread bumped, I think the title is true for five seconds and get incredibly excited It's the gift that keeps on giving.  |
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