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Post by Duragizer on Apr 8, 2020 5:06:05 GMT -5
I prefer the growing block universe theory, myself. Far less deterministic.
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Post by dbutler69 on Apr 8, 2020 7:28:08 GMT -5
We're reading this in a "pocket universe". Time Trapper's back to his games again, I see. I'm glad you got that reference. After all, for some reason, not everybody is a Legion fan.
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Post by mikelmidnight on Apr 8, 2020 11:42:53 GMT -5
The physics of COIE is a headache all around. How is the Anti-Monitor able to destroy an infinite multiverse? How is anyone able to travel back to the timeless state before existence and not simply wink out of being? If Earth-Prime was eradicated in 1985, how are we still here, reading this crap? Etc, etc, etc.
Per Mark Gruenwald, Earth-Prime <> Earth-Real.
I have wondered what the Earth-Prime Marv Wolfman and George Perez thought when their Earth started to be obliterated though. "Dang it, I knew I ought to have added a panel where Earth Prime survi-"
Interesting to think that Earth-1 was also obliterated at the first meeting of the Justice League of America, and that Earth-2 had a conically established 30th century which they didn't get to enact ... although yeah the idea that every moment is being obliterated simultaneously ceases to become coherent after a while.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 12:07:29 GMT -5
Another possible explanation (but one which undercuts a lot of the premises of COIE) stems from Eigen states and the Uncertainty Principle. I first came across this in a Robert Anton Wilson book (it may have been The Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy of one of his "non-fiction" books, I can't recall).
Essentially, whenever there is an uncertain outcome, all possible outcomes exist in separate Eigen states (think separate realities/universe) and just because the one we are in has one outcomes, doesn't mean the other outcomes cease to exist, their Eigen states continue on and each uncertain outcome creates more Eigen states continually essentially creating an infinite multiverse that grows exponentially to eternally.
So for example, if one spins a number wheel with 4 numbers on it, there are 4 possible outcomes and when in your Eigen state the wheel stops at 3, determining the outcomes, there are three other Eigen states, one for each of the other outcomes, and all 4 Eigen states exist simultaneously. If in each of the Eigen states the spinner has to decide whether or not to spin the wheel a second time, creating two Eigen states, and inthe one where he/she does spin a second time each creates four new Eigen states, etc. etc.
So when Sgt Rock faces his universe ending, there are two possible outcomes, so when it is destroyed, another still exists where it doesn't and in that Eigen state the multiverse can end in 1985 (and again it might not, so that creates two Eigen states, etc.) So in this theory, COIE itself is only one possible Eigen state, and there is another/others where COIE never occurred and the DC multiverse exists the same as it ever was with Earth-1, Earth-2, Prime, 3, X, S, etc.)
So there are lots of possible ways the DCU could be be destroyed simultaneously in different time eras, just choose the one you like (but realize every possible outcome of that choice results in a new Eigen state).
-M
(and if you don't understand all this, don't worry, there is a reality in which you do, as all possible outcomes exist)
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Post by Deleted on Apr 8, 2020 12:44:12 GMT -5
Another possible explanation (but one which undercuts a lot of the premises of COIE) stems from Eigen states and the Uncertainty Principle. I first came across this in a Robert Anton Wilson book (it may have been The Schrodinger's Cat Trilogy of one of his "non-fiction" books, I can't recall). Essentially, whenever there is an uncertain outcome, all possible outcomes exist in separate Eigen states (think separate realities/universe) and just because the one we are in has one outcomes, doesn't mean the other outcomes cease to exist, their Eigen states continue on and each uncertain outcome creates more Eigen states continually essentially creating an infinite multiverse that grows exponentially to eternally. So for example, if one spins a number wheel with 4 numbers on it, there are 4 possible outcomes and when in your Eigen state the wheel stops at 3, determining the outcomes, there are three other Eigen states, one for each of the other outcomes, and all 4 Eigen states exist simultaneously. If in each of the Eigen states the spinner has to decide whether or not to spin the wheel a second time, creating two Eigen states, and inthe one where he/she does spin a second time each creates four new Eigen states, etc. etc. So when Sgt Rock faces his universe ending, there are two possible outcomes, so when it is destroyed, another still exists where it doesn't and in that Eigen state the multiverse can end in 1985 (and again it might not, so that creates two Eigen states, etc.) So in this theory, COIE itself is only one possible Eigen state, and there is another/others where COIE never occurred and the DC multiverse exists the same as it ever was with Earth-1, Earth-2, Prime, 3, X, S, etc.) So there are lots of possible ways the DCU could be be destroyed simultaneously in different time eras, just choose the one you like (but realize every possible outcome of that choice results in a new Eigen state). -M (and if you don't understand all this, don't worry, there is a reality in which you do, as all possible outcomes exist) But then isn't one "Earth", such as Earth One, just a specific collection or series of Eigen states? Sure, there is at least one state where the world ended in WWII, and at least one where it didn't, but I think we were meant to accept that the Sgt Rock we were all reading prior to the Crisis, and who witnessed the crisis, is the "root" state which eventually led to at least one Silver/Bronze Age Justice League state. Not that there also aren't multiple Justice League states, but their adventures which were chronicled in the comics should be a specific series of states, right? The fact that other states exist shouldn't discount that. My real-world history is a specific series of states, isn't it, despite the fact that other infinite Drakes have experienced minor or major differences in their histories, and new Drake realities keep spinning out. This is all academic of course, because a simple thought experiment has disproved the infinite universe theory for me. To paraphrase Sheldon (but I had the idea first, I swear!): "The math would suggest that there is an alternate universe where I'm a clown made of candy, but there cannot be an alternate universe where I enjoy rap music"
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zilch
Full Member
Posts: 244
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Post by zilch on Apr 8, 2020 21:46:42 GMT -5
I think that the "red skies" events were at chronal "soft points" (where changing the timeline is possible, see Booster Gold V2) for different universes... in 1872, 1944, 30th C and today (1985) for E-1, 1942 and 1985 for E-2... no telling what the soft points were for X, S, 6 ect.
-z
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 9, 2020 7:27:34 GMT -5
Magic. And a lot of make believe.
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Post by brutalis on Apr 9, 2020 8:35:24 GMT -5
You all are using way too much thought and science to explain a comic book? As Mr. Spock would say: illogical. Toss logic out the space time continuum since we have yet to "prove" anything about time other than crafting ideas and concepts of our own imagining to try and explain it. The past is just that: past! It is over, done, finished, gone, expired and already happened. Can't change it (contrary to science fiction and fantasy tropes) and can only use what has passed to learn from it and avoid doing it again. I got more than enough to worry about in the moment of each day without contemplating my navel's existence in the past, present and future or it's multiple universes surrounding it. It's belly button lint, so pluck it out and move on with the day.
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 9, 2020 19:44:34 GMT -5
Any bit of literature that features time travel is Poppy cock.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 20:02:48 GMT -5
Any bit of literature that features time travel is Poppy cock. So are any stories with characters in bright costumes with super-powers, but we enjoy them anyways. -M
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Post by Icctrombone on Apr 9, 2020 21:18:02 GMT -5
Any bit of literature that features time travel is Poppy cock. So are any stories with characters in bright costumes with super-powers, but we enjoy them anyways. -M Agreed. Why over analyze any of it. ?
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2020 21:56:37 GMT -5
So are any stories with characters in bright costumes with super-powers, but we enjoy them anyways. -M Agreed. Why over analyze any of it. ? Because some people enjoy analyzing it? -M
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Post by rberman on Apr 9, 2020 22:08:34 GMT -5
It's not just that something was happening to every point in time simultaneously. It's that something was supposedly happening to every point in time over a period of time simultaneously, and in every universe to boot. We saw heroes reacting to the menace, which can't happen if it's affecting every point in time equally.
But we're not supposed to think too hard about it. The only reason to make it happen "at every point in time" was so that modern-day heroes, Old West heroes, WW2 heroes, Anthro, Kamandi, and the LSH could all be involved in the story. Trying to make scientific sense of this plot contrivance is an exercise in futility.
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Roquefort Raider
CCF Mod Squad
Modus omnibus in rebus
Posts: 17,090
Member is Online
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Apr 10, 2020 19:39:45 GMT -5
It's not just that something was happening to every point in time simultaneously. It's that something was supposedly happening to every point in time over a period of time simultaneously, and in every universe to boot. We saw heroes reacting to the menace, which can't happen if it's affecting every point in time equally. But we're not supposed to think too hard about it. The only reason to make it happen "at every point in time" was so that modern-day heroes, Old West heroes, WW2 heroes, Anthro, Kamandi, and the LSH could all be involved in the story. Trying to make scientific sense of this plot contrivance is an exercise in futility. That’s a pretty good answer, but it leads to the following question... Why bother? If you’re going to destroy the multiverse and can travel through time, just do it right at the start. Don’t bother creating shadow creatures who will trade punches with Batman. Why bother destroying a future time point, if you can destroy the origin of time? Probably because doing the latter would just create a new timeline, one in which everything was destroyed before it even had a chance of existing (leaving the other, future universes, still extant). So to destroy everything, everywhere, all at the same time, you really need to destroy every timeline at every moment of its existence. We readers only got to see a fraction of these; we witnessed Earth-3 being destroyed at a certain time point, for example, and not the universe where it was destroyed two seconds later.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 11, 2020 0:43:48 GMT -5
It's not just that something was happening to every point in time simultaneously. It's that something was supposedly happening to every point in time over a period of time simultaneously, and in every universe to boot. We saw heroes reacting to the menace, which can't happen if it's affecting every point in time equally. But we're not supposed to think too hard about it. The only reason to make it happen "at every point in time" was so that modern-day heroes, Old West heroes, WW2 heroes, Anthro, Kamandi, and the LSH could all be involved in the story. Trying to make scientific sense of this plot contrivance is an exercise in futility. Well, my futility has been looking kind of flabby...
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