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Post by rberman on Jul 31, 2020 19:33:47 GMT -5
Having now read this: I understand better what Grant Morrison was homaging in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond (2009) when Superman gets aboard a Bleed-travelling spaceship and takes a journey through the "Bleed storm." Wild storm was published by DC in 1999 while this series was underway. Note how the worlds of the Bleed are described as growing crystals, just like in Planetary #1. And now I find an even earlier reference to ultramenstruum by Morrison, in The Invisibles Volume 2 #22 (February 1999): This predates the first reference to "The Bleed" in The Authority #1 (May 1999). The Invisibles reference is more related to the Rosicrucian idea of the Holy Grail (San Greal) actually being blood (Sang Real) and thus a bloodline of descendants of Christ. But it seems that once The Bleed was established in the Wildstorm/DC multiverse as the interdimensional medium, Morrison retooled his notion of ultramenstruum accordingly.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 17, 2021 11:35:38 GMT -5
Planetary #7 by Ellis and CassadayAfter some significant world-building in the last couple of issues Ellis and Cassady come back with an homage issue that still manages to expand the Planetary milieu. The story opens with Jack Carter being dead. Carter was Planetary's window on England in the 80s. He was also Planetary's answer to John Constantine and his death and this story gives the creators an opportunity to look at the British Invasion of comics in the 1980s and into the 90s. The trio head to Jack's funeral in London and it gives them, us and Ellis and Cassiday a chance to look at the results of British creators playing with our comic book toys...and creating a few of their own. The funeral is attended by a number of analogues of characters who were created or re-defined by British creators in the 80s and into the 90s. Well some of them attend. Some are just feeding the pigeons. Jakita tells Snow a story of Jack Carter. On Christmas Eve, following a nasty bit of business with an ex-girlfriend, Carter comes across an invisible assassin, known as a Herod, on his way to prevent the second-coming at the behest of the Prime Minister. It's a very Constantine kind of story with a very Constantine kind of ending that Ellis uses to demonstrate the feelings about these British creators toward the Thatcher administration. Jakita wants to see where Carter died as closure. At the corner of Moorcock Rd. where he was beaten to death Drummer detects significant magic. Snow determines that Carter fakes his death, which brings out a very 90s looking superhero who "killed" Carter for exposing the parade of sins that kept him from being the boring pristine hero he had previously been. Carter appears and puts the poor sod out of his misery and we see that he's changed from Constantine to Spider Jerusalem. There's just a ton of deeper meaning here. This was written about the time that Ellis quit his aborted run on Hellblazer after the censorship of his "Shoot" story. It's also significant that this issue was cover-dated Jan. 2000. Just as the previous wave of Brit-helmed comics ushered the transition from the 80s to the 90s and the birth of Vertigo, Ellis seems to be saying that the move from the 90s to the 2000s will involve creators doing their own work instead of playing in someone else's sandbox, with the transition of Constantine to Jerusalem. Ellis also spends a lot of time explaining the difference between the politics in the UK and the US in the 80s, something I think that a lot of US readers didn't and still don't understand. I think this also ties in with the very different class-consciousness that seems to make it very hard for American readers to understand the viewpoint and the sense of humor of Brit writers. I will, say as a fan of most of the books that Ellis poked at here, I loved it. "Magic is the cheat code of the Universe." - Drummer.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 17, 2021 12:17:02 GMT -5
The politics of the 80s, in the US and UK weren't necessarily as disparate as it may seem to some. You had much the same dynamic going on: a very conservative government brought in after a steep economic decline, lots of talk about "traditional values", while investment brokers run wild with questionable and often illegal practices. Labor lost much status and whole industries disappeared as they were taken overseas, to exploit cheaper labor. Military operations that looked like a 900 lb gorilla swatting a kitten which boosted the public profile of the head of government.
Where a lot of the difference comes is in the media presentation of the times. In the UK, you had a much larger satire world, on the publicly funded BBC, as well as the privately controlled ITV and the brand new Channel 4. In the US, you had SNL, which wasn't nearly as biting, in that period, under Dick Ebersol, and you had Mad, which also wasn't nearly as on point as it had been in the 50s and 60s (and even 70s). National Lampoon was still going; but declining from what it had been and Spy would start up . In the UK, you had a lot of attacks on the government via things like Spitting Image, sketch comedy shows, alternative comedy outlets (especially stuff like The Young Ones). You also had a real Labor Party, with access to the media. The US media was pretty much corporate controlled (or consolidating under conglomerates) and very cozy with the Reagan Administration, until the Iran-Contra revelations gave them a juicy story.
I think it is more people in the US were less likely to follow British news and politics and not know the specifics of things like the Miner's Strike or even the Falklands; but, they probably had some passing idea of the Thatcher government, based on network news. It didn't take much insight to recognize that there was a lot of similarity between Thatcher and Reagan, apart from the style of their public speeches.
The Moorcock Road is very significant, as Michael Moorcock is one of the large influences on that generation of writers. His work as both editor of New Worlds and his own writing had great influence, particularly his counter-culture heroes, like Jerry Cornelius, and his concepts of a multiverse, via the Eternal Champion. Neil Gaiman paid homage in a short story, "One Life, Furnished in Early Moorcock." Morrison worshipped Cornelius and cribbed from him, Moore also was greatly influenced, along with similar authors from New Worlds.
I was never a huge fan of the proto-Vertigo comics, since the supernatural never held a ton of intertest to me. I sampled it and read Moore (more later, than during, with Swamp Thing); but, stuff like Doom Patrol always felt weird for weirdness sake and I had other alternatives to that and superheroes, with indie comics. So, this issue was more like a trip through the British invasion and Ellis' take on Thatcher. I enjoyed it more for the nostalgia trip of the 80s, much like the spy homage, the pulp heroes and such, though those had more resonance with me, as those are favorite genres of mine.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 17, 2021 14:35:00 GMT -5
The politics of the 80s, in the US and UK weren't necessarily as disparate as it may seem to some. You had much the same dynamic going on: a very conservative government brought in after a steep economic decline, lots of talk about "traditional values", while investment brokers run wild with questionable and often illegal practices. Labor lost much status and whole industries disappeared as they were taken overseas, to exploit cheaper labor. Military operations that looked like a 900 lb gorilla swatting a kitten which boosted the public profile of the head of government. Where a lot of the difference comes is in the media presentation of the times. In the UK, you had a much larger satire world, on the publicly funded BBC, as well as the privately controlled ITV and the brand new Channel 4. In the US, you had SNL, which wasn't nearly as biting, in that period, under Dick Ebersol, and you had Mad, which also wasn't nearly as on point as it had been in the 50s and 60s (and even 70s). National Lampoon was still going; but declining from what it had been and Spy would start up . In the UK, you had a lot of attacks on the government via things like Spitting Image, sketch comedy shows, alternative comedy outlets (especially stuff like The Young Ones). You also had a real Labor Party, with access to the media. The US media was pretty much corporate controlled (or consolidating under conglomerates) and very cozy with the Reagan Administration, until the Iran-Contra revelations gave them a juicy story. I think it is more people in the US were less likely to follow British news and politics and not know the specifics of things like the Miner's Strike or even the Falklands; but, they probably had some passing idea of the Thatcher government, based on network news. It didn't take much insight to recognize that there was a lot of similarity between Thatcher and Reagan, apart from the style of their public speeches. The difference, partly, is the effect that we saw on creators and their reactions to the administrations. Alan Moore, in his introduction to V for Vendetta wrote of England "It’s cold and it’s mean spirited and I don’t like it here anymore.” You absolutely see in the very early issues of Hellblazer by Jamie Delano an absolute drubbing of Thatcherism and it being associated with demonic influences. Again, I think there's also a bit here because most of the writers of the British Invasion were working class, in a society where that actually means something unlike in the U.S., and Thatcher was hell-bent on destroying the things that had given the working class power in the U.K. Gaiman came from a more affluent family and his work is significantly less political than that of Moore, Delano, or later Ennis, just as examples. Moorcock was hugely influential on most, if not all of the British Invasion writers. And really I think his influence on SF, fantasy and comics overall is terribly underrated. His editing of New Worlds (along with Ballard) was a huge influence on British writers of all stripes after he took over in '63. That influence carried over to the States with influence on the directions of Zelazny and Sladek, just to name two. I was a huge fan. I absolutely devoured all of Moore's work, Gaiman remains my favorite comic writer and in my top five prose writers and I followed Hellblazer from the first issue almost through the end.
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Post by Dizzy D on Mar 18, 2021 9:27:57 GMT -5
Having now read this: I understand better what Grant Morrison was homaging in Final Crisis: Superman Beyond (2009) when Superman gets aboard a Bleed-travelling spaceship and takes a journey through the "Bleed storm." Wild storm was published by DC in 1999 while this series was underway. Note how the worlds of the Bleed are described as growing crystals, just like in Planetary #1. And now I find an even earlier reference to ultramenstruum by Morrison, in The Invisibles Volume 2 #22 (February 1999): This predates the first reference to "The Bleed" in The Authority #1 (May 1999). The Invisibles reference is more related to the Rosicrucian idea of the Holy Grail (San Greal) actually being blood (Sang Real) and thus a bloodline of descendants of Christ. But it seems that once The Bleed was established in the Wildstorm/DC multiverse as the interdimensional medium, Morrison retooled his notion of ultramenstruum accordingly.
Small correction here: "The Bleed" was first referenced in Ellis' Stormwatch series (the predecessor to the Authority). Stormwatch #7-9 (May 1998) 3-part "The Bleed" introduced the concept.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2021 7:20:58 GMT -5
Planetary #3 by Ellis and CassadayIn issue number three Ellis and Cassaday give us another homage to another area of popular culture, in this case Hong Kong/Chinese action films. In this case in particular revenge films. This is an area I’m personally even less versed in than the Kaiju we saw in issue number two. But that didn’t detract from my enjoyment of the story, which is probably a testament to the quality of the work. I just started reading Planetary for the first time a few days ago. Great stuff so far. I guess this was an homage to John Woo films, but I've never seen a John Woo film (except Face/Off, which is hardly relevant here) so I was wondering though this issue what the homage was to. But still an enjoyable read.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 19, 2021 8:49:29 GMT -5
Planetary #3 by Ellis and CassadayIn issue number three Ellis and Cassaday give us another homage to another area of popular culture, in this case Hong Kong/Chinese action films. In this case in particular revenge films. This is an area I’m personally even less versed in than the Kaiju we saw in issue number two. But that didn’t detract from my enjoyment of the story, which is probably a testament to the quality of the work. I just started reading Planetary for the first time a few days ago. Great stuff so far. I guess this was an homage to John Woo films, but I've never seen a John Woo film (except Face/Off, which is hardly relevant here) so I was wondering though this issue what the homage was to. But still an enjoyable read. It doesn’t homage any particular film, but Hong Kong action films in general. If you want a good single recommendation to correspond with this issue it’s probably John Woo’s “A Better Tomorrow” from 1985. It’s arguably the high point for the heroic bloodshed genre.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2021 15:25:04 GMT -5
In #2, I kinda liked how Ellis poked fun at the idea that the kaiju monsters were caused by an atomic bomb. "We can't say it was an atomic bomb. We can't say these things are radioactive mutants. I mean, that'd be stupid. Maybe someone underground tested a mutagen, or a door opened from a parallel earth, or something extraterrestrial impacted here..." I could extrapolate that to poking fun at how many superheroes (especially Marvel, and especially in the 60's) got their powers from radioactivity. Maybe that's why the origins of the Hulk and Spider-Man got tweaked a bit in the movies.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Mar 19, 2021 15:30:58 GMT -5
In #2, I kinda liked how Ellis poked fun at the idea that the kaiju monsters were caused by an atomic bomb. "We can't say it was an atomic bomb. We can't say these things are radioactive mutants. I mean, that'd be stupid. Maybe someone underground tested a mutagen, or a door opened from a parallel earth, or something extraterrestrial impacted here..." I could extrapolate that to poking fun at how many superheroes (especially Marvel, and especially in the 60's) got their powers from radioactivity. Maybe that's why the origins of the Hulk and Spider-Man got tweaked a bit in the movies. I, and Ellis, will be circling back to this with issue #8 which I will be writing up sometime before close of business Monday.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 19, 2021 15:46:46 GMT -5
In #2, I kinda liked how Ellis poked fun at the idea that the kaiju monsters were caused by an atomic bomb. "We can't say it was an atomic bomb. We can't say these things are radioactive mutants. I mean, that'd be stupid. Maybe someone underground tested a mutagen, or a door opened from a parallel earth, or something extraterrestrial impacted here..." I could extrapolate that to poking fun at how many superheroes (especially Marvel, and especially in the 60's) got their powers from radioactivity. Maybe that's why the origins of the Hulk and Spider-Man got tweaked a bit in the movies. I, and Ellis, will be circling back to this with issue #8 which I will be writing up sometime before close of business Monday. Hopefully I'll be up to #8 myself by then.
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Post by berkley on Mar 19, 2021 15:54:41 GMT -5
Planetary #3 by Ellis and CassadayIn issue number three Ellis and Cassaday give us another homage to another area of popular culture, in this case Hong Kong/Chinese action films. In this case in particular revenge films. This is an area I’m personally even less versed in than the Kaiju we saw in issue number two. But that didn’t detract from my enjoyment of the story, which is probably a testament to the quality of the work. I just started reading Planetary for the first time a few days ago. Great stuff so far. I guess this was an homage to John Woo films, but I've never seen a John Woo film (except Face/Off, which is hardly relevant here) so I was wondering though this issue what the homage was to. But still an enjoyable read.
A little off-topic, but I think that out of all his Hollywood movies, Face-Off was the one that best showcased Woo's style. But yes, you really need to see the HK ones to understand what he was all about. A must for any film-fan!
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Planetary
Mar 19, 2021 16:15:05 GMT -5
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 19, 2021 16:15:05 GMT -5
I have this entire series in comic book form and it never let me down. The only thing I will say is that it made me nervous to read them. They always broke my childhood toys.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 19, 2021 22:18:40 GMT -5
The Hong Kong one was an homage to the action films of the 80s and early 90s, in HK Cinema. It's not just John Woo, but also Ringo Lam, the two most high profile. I got pretty heavily into that stuff in the early 90s, after reading some criticism of Tarantino's Reservoir Dogs, which remarked about scenes and characters he cribbed from City on Fire and A Better Tomorrow. City on Fire is directed by Ringo Lam and is a great action/character film about a robbery that goes wrong and ends up in a siege situation, while A Better Tomorrow is more of a character study about a criminal and his real brother, a cop, and his spiritual brother, another criminal, played by Chow Yun-Fat. Woo and Chow Yun-Fat were synonymous, as he also appeared in The Killer (as a hitman, largely inspired by Jean-Pierre Melville's Le Samourai, with Alain Delon) and Hard Boiled (as a cop). Those films got a lot of international attention, leading to Woo coming over to do Face Off and Hard Target, and CYF also came over and did The Replacement Killers and Bulletproof Monk.
This period also saw a revival of the period kung fu films, with Jet Li as Wong Fei Hung, directed by Tsui Hark. Hark also directed Chinese Ghost Story, which mixed kung fu and the supernatural.
Other filmmakers followed in their footsteps, with other action heroes, like Donnie Yen.
So, Ellis is mixing a lot of that. Each of these has been an homage to specific genres or subgenres. Issue one deals with pulp heroes, the antecedents of the superheroes. Issue 2 has the kaiju of Godzilla and his buddies and rivals. 3 is the Honk Kong tribute, while 4 is Captain Marvel (the real one). 5 is more pulp, 6 is The Fantastic Four (and Challengers of the Unknown), 7 is the Vertigo bunch and their creators/writers. 8 is 50s sci-fi movies (atomic monsters and the like), 9 gets into the past of Planetary, while also mixing in Men in Black conspiracy theories and more vintage sci-fi. 10 is a sort of JLA homage and 11 is a spy romp, with homages to Steranko Nick Fury, Bond and other 60s icons. 12 serves as kind of a summary and answers to some questions that have been built up.
Issue 13 is one of my favorites, as it explores the Victorian scientific romances, horror stories and other genre fictions that inspired modern SF/horro/pulp novels and comic books, with homages to Frankenstein, Sherlock Holmes, Dracula and others of that world, much like Alan Moore's League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.
Lot of meta-fiction stuff in this, like LOEG and Philip Jose Farmer's Would newton Universe.
Hard part of all of this was how long a gap there could be between issues.
I much preferred this to The Authority, both in the writing and the art. Cassaday is a bit more versatile an artist and storyteller than Hitch, for my money. Also, Ellis on the Authority had a tendency to repeat the same story beats, as the group would kick butt, then get their butt kicked, then suddenly defeat their enemy. It didn't always feel earned, to me. Planetary seemed to be better thought out, long term.
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Post by dbutler69 on Mar 20, 2021 10:11:46 GMT -5
For some reason, the cover to #4 looks kinda 90's to me. I think because the character looks like he was drawn by Jim Lee. Obviously that's not the intent, but that's what it evoked for me.
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Post by codystarbuck on Mar 20, 2021 11:17:41 GMT -5
For some reason, the cover to #4 looks kinda 90's to me. I think because the character looks like he was drawn by Jim Lee. Obviously that's not the intent, but that's what it evoked for me. The rendering, yeah; but the imagery is based on Captain Billy's Whiz-Bang, the humor magazine that William Fawcett published in the 20s, before starting Fawcett Comics.
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