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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 22, 2014 9:14:51 GMT -5
Yeah, that's probably why they like to do collections by creator, or compliations like 'the greatest x stories ever told'. People will grab volume 1 of something to try, no issue. If they like it, they'll get 2,3, etc. Once you get to 10, you're probably talking, what,10% of those that by #1 will still be around for #10? less? I which that wasn't the case, but it probably is.
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 22, 2014 17:50:22 GMT -5
The first thing I thought of when I saw this thread's title was books like Marvel Collector's Item Classics, Fantasy Masterpieces, Marvel Tales, etc. They're collected editions that are classics in their own right.
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 23, 2014 7:13:00 GMT -5
I'm not saying every volume should exist instantly, but once they've released volume one, I just assume keeping it in print wouldn't be all that difficult if the company were actually interested in expanding beyond the direct market, which in my opinion they are sabotaging their own efforts at, probably so they can point at their lack of success and say "See? It doesn't work!" When it actually would work if they put as much effort into it as they do variant covers for their floppies. I don't agree. Because after the print run sells they have to go back to print. And while you're assuming there's a continuous market it's simply an assumption. I suspect you're wrong. Most of the Golden Age stories have limited appeal beyond hardcore fans. Frankly a lot of that stuff gets really "samey" after a while. Volume 1 might generate enough interest to keep in print. Volume 10...isn't going too. Yeah, as much as a part of me would like to read every Golden Age Batman and Superman...it's just never going to happen. This is why I've never been tempted to get into DC Archives pre-Silver Age. What I'd like to see are more refined versions of the "Greatest Stories Ever Told" or "in the 40's" series that are a bit more comprehensive. I think that's the best way to enjoy Golden Age material.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2014 9:57:03 GMT -5
I could live with that... you of course then get people who will say 'why did they pick THAT one?', but it's definitely better than nothing, and probably a bit more commerically viable
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Post by Nowhere Man on Oct 23, 2014 10:31:20 GMT -5
That's what I was thinking. What irks me is how they released several different Batman "greatest hits" with multiple repeats. How about a version that includes ALL the issues chosen so far? Kinds of an ultimate revision.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 14:12:22 GMT -5
I'm not saying every volume should exist instantly, but once they've released volume one, I just assume keeping it in print wouldn't be all that difficult if the company were actually interested in expanding beyond the direct market, which in my opinion they are sabotaging their own efforts at, probably so they can point at their lack of success and say "See? It doesn't work!" When it actually would work if they put as much effort into it as they do variant covers for their floppies. I don't agree. Because after the print run sells they have to go back to print. And while you're assuming there's a continuous market it's simply an assumption. I suspect you're wrong. Most of the Golden Age stories have limited appeal beyond hardcore fans. Frankly a lot of that stuff gets really "samey" after a while. Volume 1 might generate enough interest to keep in print. Volume 10...isn't going too. As others have stated, the material is perpetually in print, just in different formats, to try to entice completionists to buy it again. But what does this do to the people interested in collecting something like the Batman Chronicles? What if they hadn't heard of it until volume 11 came out? Why even publish a volume 11 if volume 1 is not available? If something sells out, to me there's enough interest for a second run. Especially if it's Batman. They may have to sit on it for a year, but they'll eventually be able to dump it all on Amazon and Diamond's lap.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 23, 2014 14:17:42 GMT -5
I don't agree. Because after the print run sells they have to go back to print. And while you're assuming there's a continuous market it's simply an assumption. I suspect you're wrong. Most of the Golden Age stories have limited appeal beyond hardcore fans. Frankly a lot of that stuff gets really "samey" after a while. Volume 1 might generate enough interest to keep in print. Volume 10...isn't going too. As others have stated, the material is perpetually in print, just in different formats, to try to entice completionists to buy it again. But what does this do to the people interested in collecting something like the Batman Chronicles? What if they hadn't heard of it until volume 11 came out? Why even publish a volume 11 if volume 1 is not available? If something sells out, to me there's enough interest for a second run. Especially if it's Batman. They may have to sit on it for a year, but they'll eventually be able to dump it all on Amazon and Diamond's lap. I think we'll agree to disagree. I think you're making business assumptions based on not much more than your feelings that fly in the face of the way that publishing has done business for over a century.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2014 14:31:45 GMT -5
Something that's in stock for a year means X number of dollars are tied up in something that's not making a profit... that's a bad thing. Marvel and DC probably COULD do that, as they're big, but the probably don't want to, when they can just move on to the next new thing that moves faster.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 15:12:53 GMT -5
Something that's in stock for a year means X number of dollars are tied up in something that's not making a profit... that's a bad thing. Marvel and DC probably COULD do that, as they're big, but the probably don't want to, when they can just move on to the next new thing that moves faster. Which ties into the opportunity costs of the model which I talked about, tying up resources in one place means those resources are not available for other projects/products/expenses, etc. What would be a better use of the resources-a third printing of a book that has had its big sales push, or a new product with untapped sales potential? Even big corporations don't have unlimited resources, and they have to explain to shareholders why they are tying up resource sin less profitable ventures when more profitable opportunities are out there. But as Slam points out, the realities of doing business and business models are often ignored when discussing what companies should do by those on the outside looking in. -M
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 18:33:03 GMT -5
As others have stated, the material is perpetually in print, just in different formats, to try to entice completionists to buy it again. But what does this do to the people interested in collecting something like the Batman Chronicles? What if they hadn't heard of it until volume 11 came out? Why even publish a volume 11 if volume 1 is not available? If something sells out, to me there's enough interest for a second run. Especially if it's Batman. They may have to sit on it for a year, but they'll eventually be able to dump it all on Amazon and Diamond's lap. I think we'll agree to disagree. I think you're making business assumptions based on not much more than your feelings that fly in the face of the way that publishing has done business for over a century. Could be, but I don't know why the fifth Harry Potter book would ever be written if a reader couldn't buy the first. Of course comics are different. Not all comics, because all the Peanuts volumes stay in print, all the Usagi volumes stay in print, all the Love And Rockets volumes stay in print. Just superhero comics. Oh wait, all the Empowered volumes stay in print. Just Marvel and DC super hero comics. They're special. Marvel and DC obviously know what they're doing regarding reprint collections, which is why they're doing so well outside the direct market.
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2014 18:59:47 GMT -5
I find when I go to a book store they'll often have the 1st and last book of a series on the shelf, but none of the ones in between... I suspect that's what most stores do for comics, too... if they have any in the middle, they're simply left over from when that title was the newest.
Otherwise, they just order when someone asks.
As far as the smaller presses go, they don't have a better product.. they're trying to get as much shelf space as possible, where Marvel and DC have the space, they're trying to turn it over as often as they can.
Besides, when was the last time you saw an Usagi trade in a non-comic book store? I did a couple years back when the Boston Museum of Science was doing a samurai exhibit (they had a deal with Dark Horse to use Usagi in their marketing), but otherwise?
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Oct 23, 2014 19:09:58 GMT -5
Except, of course, they aren't the exception. Peanuts is very much the exception in strip reprints...And again, the series hasn't actually finished. You're assuming facts that aren't in evidence. In ten or twenty years we'll know if the Collected Peanuts stays in print.
Again, Harry Potter and The Lord of the Rings are the exception to the rule. Books go out of print all the time. Stephen King is arguably the biggest writer alive still. But a number of his books are out of print.
But somehow, DC is supposed to produce a series of all Batman issues...a series which would number in the hundreds...And keep them in print...because you assume they'll all sell, even though dozens will be repetitive crap that would try the patience of even the most completist fanboys.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 20:25:23 GMT -5
Except, of course, they aren't the exception. Peanuts is very much the exception in strip reprints...And again, the series hasn't actually finished. You're assuming facts that aren't in evidence. In ten or twenty years we'll know if the Collected Peanuts stays in print. But as long as new editions continue to be released, volume one will stay in print. I'll put money on that. There would be absolutely no reason to buy volume fifteen if volumes one through three couldn't be had. Also, how do you attract new buyers to your series if the first volume is unavailable? You know, when The Complete Crumb first came out, I was not in the market for it. Now I am. Luckily it can still be bought. Same goes for the Cerebus phonebooks. Why would anyone want the fifth phonebook if they couldn't have the first? Now, after the series is complete, that's another story. I'm talking about while the series is still in relative infancy. From what I've heard, some Marvel and DC collections are limited to as little as five hundred copies. And these aren't even "limited edition" collections. That's just the total print run for things like Captain America. Seems silly, right? Am I supposed to believe that's simply how large the market is? Even after seeing copies of the out of print hardcovers selling for five hundred dollars on eBay? And I don't believe it's a fluke, or two enthusiastic bidders making it happen, or else it would only happen once. It happens consistently until it's eventually brought back to print, which sometimes happens and sometimes doesn't. I believe this is done for one of many reasons, none of them being business savvy. They could be pandering to speculators, flippers, and dealers. Allowing things to go out of print so those who bought for profit get a chance to profit. Maybe they think if the book remains in perpetual availability these people won't buy at all. It's possible these people are their largest accounts. Another reason is they probably don't want to help the bookstore/amazon market along. They must know there's no stopping it, they must know the direct market is no longer going to be the exclusive source of their content. They also know they don't perform as well outside the direct market, so why would they participate any more than they have to? Even with their loss of market share outside the direct market, they're a powerhouse combined. Them ignoring a market will make a market struggle to grow, for a while. But what then? What happens when they've waited too long? I saw it in their digital participation as well, when they refused to release digital the same day as print. Why would they do that? To please the direct market of course. Not because they somehow profit more by waiting a couple months until half the market for digital already has a bootleg copy. And Peanuts is not the exception. I'm not talking strictly newspaper reprints. I'm talking all reprints of long ongoing series comprised of multiple volumes. Outside of Marvel and DC nine times out of ten if any volumes are in print, all volumes are in print. Unless it's a creator owned series that jumped from publisher to publisher and has problems with reprint rights, or a licensed series, or a creator owned series that crossed over with another creator owned series or licensed series. Those are special circumstances though, and the reason not everything may be in print with those titles is because of legal and licensing issues, not because it makes a ton of sense to let the early volumes go out of print while you release the later volumes.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2014 22:27:58 GMT -5
Except most of the Cerebus volumes are currently out of print, which is why Sim has spent the last few years remastering them to get them back into print. And in publishing, there is a catalog, called books in print, if you flip through it at a bookstore sometime, you will see lots of ongoing continued series that only have certain volumes available, and a lot of those are only still available because the first print run didn't do well enough to sell out and haven't been remaindered yet. And as popular as Harry Potter is, let's see how long Rowling's other books stay in print, my guess is not long because they are not perennial sellers. The perennial sellers stay in print, the books that don' have that kind of shelf life don't.
And comparing sales and demand on a secondary market with sales and demand in the primary market is comparing apples and oranges. The publisher already made their money when the books sold the first time. Unless there is enough demand to warrant the size a second (or later) printing would have to be to make it profitable, they will not go back to press, as they can sell more of other books.
Another difference between Harry Potter and Batman. Harry Potter is one story over 7 volumes, all pieces of one work by one creator, so if one is in print, yes the rest need to be for the consumer to get the whole story. Same with Lord of the Rings. Batman, however is not one work. It is thousands of stories over what would be hundreds of volumes by dozens of different creators if it were all collected (Batman, Detective, World's Finest, Brave & Bold, Justice League, Outsiders, Dark Knight, etc. etc.). You don't need to have read all of them to fully enjoy one of them. I can read a random story out of Batman Chronicles Vol. 1 and not have to read Batman and the Outsiders to get the whole story. Just like I don't need to read It! by Stephen King to get the whole story of the Stand, and people reading and buying It is not dependent the Stand being in print, reading the Dark Knight Returns is not dependent on Batman Chronicles Vol. 4 being in print. Different animal and a different business reality. Comparing Harry Potter or LOTR to the complete oeuvre of Batman or Superman is a false analogy because their similarity is a logical fallacy.
-M
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Post by wildfire2099 on Oct 23, 2014 22:35:16 GMT -5
I did a quick stroll through Ingram's stock list (Ingram, for those that don't know, is a book wholesaler, one of the 2 largest, that sell to bookstores)... using Naruto as an example. They have a couple hundred in stock of #1, but only handful of most of the later volumes... to Dupont's point, though they are still in print,
Manga, of course, is a different animal as well, since most series are one continuous story by a single creator.
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