Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,222
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Post by Confessor on May 19, 2020 10:19:21 GMT -5
I can't say that it had ever occurd to me before berkley mentioned it, but yeah, Ross's superhores do often look a bit smug. That said, I like Ross's comic work a lot. His beautiful, photo-realistic art has a cinematic quality to it, with lots of movement in it, and the guy certainly knows how to present a narrative flow from panel-to-panelwith his art.
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Post by tarkintino on May 19, 2020 11:07:38 GMT -5
Ross' characters never take on the appearance of being smug; he's capturing the heart of their larger-than-life, mythical (particularity with DC) presence, hence he reason his work had such a massive impact with comic fans and even those who did not collect comics. Larger than life has an immediate appeal; they are superheroes, after all, not John and Jane Q. Public, and Ross tapped into what that means better than innumerable comic artists, who often just filled panels with "typical" comic art. Although the medium is not new to painters adapting what was traditionally line art (Wilson, Larkin, Barr, Kaluta, Norem, Atkins, et al.), the superhero never (to this degree) enjoyed this kind of powerful, "living" appearance as paintings. I find his superheroes better at delivering the heart of who those characters were/are and their legacies than a great number of the actors (more like check-collectors) who have starred in superhero films of the past 20 years. They should have had the advantage of bringing comic characters to life (obviously) in a way no illustration or painting could...but that's not the case here. Nope, in poses like those above, the expressions cross the line from larger than life to smug and disdainful. Don't get me wrong. I love larger than life, and fully agree that most actors just can't pull off that quality. Compare these poses to classic and Renaissance representations of the gods of classical mythology and Biblical figures. The David isn't smug. Impassive, proud, magisterial, yes, but not smug. I prefer their not noticing us and staring off beyond us -- like Michaelangelo's Moses, for example -- rather than looking down their noses at us. Their concerns are greater than ours, but super-heroes shouldn't feel the need to let us know that we're not in their league. ...and yet in any of AR's work, whether poster or comics, his superheroes never come off as arrogant or looking down on anyone. Instead, they appear to be aware of their responsibility, but interact with people not as overlords, but as people to rely on--people who are dedicated to the cause no matter the odds. That's a Ross flair/trait he puts into his superheroes if ever there was one.
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Post by badwolf on May 19, 2020 11:23:10 GMT -5
Personally, I prefer an overhead view. Besides, everyone knows those are more flattering.
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Post by Prince Hal on May 19, 2020 15:56:43 GMT -5
Nope, in poses like those above, the expressions cross the line from larger than life to smug and disdainful. Don't get me wrong. I love larger than life, and fully agree that most actors just can't pull off that quality. Compare these poses to classic and Renaissance representations of the gods of classical mythology and Biblical figures. The David isn't smug. Impassive, proud, magisterial, yes, but not smug. I prefer their not noticing us and staring off beyond us -- like Michaelangelo's Moses, for example -- rather than looking down their noses at us. Their concerns are greater than ours, but super-heroes shouldn't feel the need to let us know that we're not in their league. ...and yet in any of AR's work, whether poster or comics, his superheroes never come off as arrogant or looking down on anyone. Instead, they appear to be aware of their responsibility, but interact with people not as overlords, but as people to rely on--people who are dedicated to the cause no matter the odds. That's a Ross flair/trait he puts into his superheroes if ever there was one. Yes, I see that, and I've enjoyed many of Ross's stories. I was commenting only on those portraits that were posted. For instance, in that oversized solo Batman book, Bruce takes off his shirt and we see that his back looks like a topographical map, so scarred is it. That scene showed a glimpse of what Batman's life would really be like, and as I recall, Bruce is not at all dismissive of Alfred's concern for him. I just think the portraits on this thread make the JLA look self-satisfied.
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Post by berkley on May 19, 2020 17:06:52 GMT -5
Yeah I<m going by the covers, which are all I've seen of Ross's work. I haven't read any of his comics and probably am not likely ever to do so, though I'd never say never. Another thing about his superhero portraits: they don't even look impressive physically to me: they don't convey a feeling of strength or power that I think superhero art should do. And as always, I am of course only talking about my own spontaneous reactions, not tryng to invalidate anyone else's feelings about this highly popular artist.
(edit:) All credit to Rockwell for taking on some controversial subject matter in his work and as I said earlier to his mastery of his craft, but I still dislike his work. It always feels overbearingly "precious" to me, no matter how much I might sympathise with the theme or subject.
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Post by rberman on May 19, 2020 17:19:55 GMT -5
Yeah I<m going by the covers, which are all I've seen of Ross's work. I haven't read any of his comics and probably am not likely ever to do so, though I'd never say never. You've never read Marvels or Kingdom Come? Might be worth your while. Covers are mainly what he's known for due to the price of his labor. He has done a few series, and I enjoyed them. YMMV. Here's a scene of Hawkman and Hawkwoman bursting out of a tight space in Justice.
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Post by berkley on May 19, 2020 17:23:27 GMT -5
can't say it really catches my eye, though there's no denying his ability. Of course it's unfair to judge just by a page or two. I'm not a fan of painted comics in general, when it comes to superheroes.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on May 19, 2020 17:50:59 GMT -5
Yeah I<m going by the covers, which are all I've seen of Ross's work. I haven't read any of his comics and probably am not likely ever to do so, though I'd never say never. You've never read Marvels or Kingdom Come? Might be worth your while. Covers are mainly what he's known for due to the price of his labor. He has done a few series, and I enjoyed them. YMMV. Here's a scene of Hawkman and Hawkwoman bursting out of a tight space in Justice.For all that I owe Kingdom Come a great debt of gratitude as it's the reason for the existence of CBR and by extension this site, every time I've tried to re-read it I've found it completely unreadable.
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Post by electricmastro on May 19, 2020 18:29:39 GMT -5
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Post by rberman on May 19, 2020 20:35:05 GMT -5
Scot McCloud argues that energy/action and art detail are inversely related, which I can see some sense in.
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Post by kirby101 on May 19, 2020 20:50:47 GMT -5
Hal Foster and Frank Frazetta disagree.
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Post by rberman on May 19, 2020 23:46:31 GMT -5
Really taking in those images requires you to scrutinize the details, which means holding the scene in freeze frame.
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,222
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Post by Confessor on May 20, 2020 0:13:22 GMT -5
Really taking in those images requires you to scrutinize the details, which means holding the scene in freeze frame. I disagree. I think the beauty of those Hal Foster and Frank Frazetta panels is that they simultaneously get the information across quickly and capture the confusion of combat. But if you want to pause and savour the detail, you can do that as well.
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Post by berkley on May 20, 2020 1:37:02 GMT -5
In defence of rberman's point, since he quoted Scott McLeod I assume he's talking about sequential art, comics, rather than stand-alone illustrations like the Frazetta piece is (I think?). The Hal Foster piece OTOH is from a sequential story (the Prince Valiant comic strip?), but even Foster's most fervent admirers would agree that his style of story-telling was more illustrative and static than what the medium evolved into later on.
However, I disagree with McLeod on this score: I think that in comics you can pause and savour the details of an individual panel without losing the momentum of the story. I think it's a mistake to think that comics have to be read in the same way that movies and tv shows are viewed - as continuous flows of narrative that the viewer has to passively receive at whatever pace the film-makers have created for their film. Though comics are a visual medium, that shouldn't mislead us into drawing too close an analogy with other visual media like film and tv - and I think this is exactly the mistake a lot of modern American comics have fallen into, both artists and writers. Comics are a literary as well as a visual medium and can be read at leisure, pausing to admire a panel or turning back to re-read a scene, etc.
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Post by kirby101 on May 20, 2020 5:41:04 GMT -5
I'll amend my response. Jack Kirby and Jim Steranko also disagree.
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