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Post by Icctrombone on May 12, 2014 8:15:08 GMT -5
I look back on lots of his work and it didn't age well. I just read the Batman Captain America crossover and found the art to lack weight. Less shadows and solidness to the figures.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 12, 2014 8:23:30 GMT -5
I still like a lot about Byrne's art (and enjoyed Generations), however I've commented to him several times on his board that his style has gotten more cartoony over the years, but he flat out states that it was his old stuff was less realistic and more cartoony! I just dropped it. He's either in denial or simply being a contrarian. I actually think his inking on FF was underrated, but it's been a LONG time since he's put that much detail in his art. What he can't deny is that, for the first 18 months on the FF, he did almost nothing else. His devotion was complete, and his work there the most elaborate he's done, before or after.
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Post by Ozymandias on May 12, 2014 8:25:52 GMT -5
I look back on lots of his work and it didn't age well. I just read the Batman Captain America crossover and found the art to lack weight. Less shadows and solidness to the figures. He fell into nothingness, during the 90's.
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Post by Nowhere Man on May 12, 2014 8:48:22 GMT -5
I think Batman/Captain America was one of the last "great" things that he's done. In some ways, his layouts have actually improved, but he simply doesn't put the detail in like he used to. One thing that baffles me is how he draws Superman nowadays. It's like he's lost the ability to draw his face and body correctly and he comes off as some odd homage to Golden Age Superman but far too puny. (It absolutely pales in comparison to his Superman work with Kesel.) I don't notice this with other characters from other commission work. His commissions, I would argue, are at times as good or better than anything he's ever done simply because he takes his time and puts in the effort and detail. Unfortunately, you're never going to see the following in an actual modern Byrne comic:
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Post by Icctrombone on May 12, 2014 8:53:02 GMT -5
Those are nice pieces but It also points out that he needs a good inker to enhance his work. It kinda reminds me of Tom Palmer filling in the blanks over John Buscemas loose pencils. The finished product was nice.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 12, 2014 9:40:01 GMT -5
Look at these beautifully inked pages by Karl Kesel over Byrnes Pencils. There's some serious detail in these panels.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 15:48:46 GMT -5
I felt that Byrne eventually devolved into what we have today; a person who draws very cartoony and without many backgrounds. I think cartoony art is fine, but lack of backgrounds is one of my pet peeves. I hate comics that are just figures in dead space.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 12, 2014 18:46:33 GMT -5
I felt that Byrne eventually devolved into what we have today; a person who draws very cartoony and without many backgrounds. I think cartoony art is fine, but lack of backgrounds is one of my pet peeves. I hate comics that are just figures in dead space. One of my pet peeves is the exact opposite: overly detailed backgrounds that muddy up the composition.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 12, 2014 19:05:38 GMT -5
That's the other side of the mirror; overly detailed panels bordering on clutter. I posted in the Classic scans thread 3 pages of COIE and it is cluttered with too much stuff by George Perez.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 12, 2014 19:20:15 GMT -5
What really bothers me is when artists forget that varying the level of detail enhances the illusion of depth, and that applying equal detail to everything flattens the image. If it's closer you give it more detail, if it's further away you give it less detail. It's one of the three big rules of perspective (the other two are to makes objects that are further away smaller and duller).
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 19:50:23 GMT -5
I think cartoony art is fine, but lack of backgrounds is one of my pet peeves. I hate comics that are just figures in dead space. One of my pet peeves is the exact opposite: overly detailed backgrounds that muddy up the composition. I don't like looking at two figures wrestling. I like to have a setting introduced to me. I think context is very important, and I've seen a lot of comics where you couldn't tell if they were indoors, outdoors, in space, they're just fighting. To me, it doesn't matter how well the artist knows anatomy, that page is worthless, the entire sequence, sometimes the entire comic, sometimes their entire body of work. I also don't like every page to have the main character front and center as the focal point. It leaves a lot of opportunity to add a feel for the atmosphere behind. I think sometimes it's okay to zoom out, give us a setting. huge pic so here's a link www.jazzbastards.org/cerebus/Cerebus%20Wallpaper%20%28Sanctuary%29.jpgAnother giant image i47.photobucket.com/albums/f168/githzerai/BS34.jpgThat's actually a level of immersion into a setting not often found in American comics. We like closeups of characters. In every panel.
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Post by crazyoldhermit on May 12, 2014 20:24:05 GMT -5
I agree that context is important, but in a different context. In the context of of a story, I think there needs to be one good establishing shot to establish the context of the scene (I'll stop saying context now*). After that the backgrounds aren't as important. Not that I'm suggesting backgroundless comics, but having a meticulously detailed background in every single panel is excessive.
I think the American style of framing is a holdover from the old days. 6, 8 or 9 panel grids with every panel at equal size and paragraphs of captions and dialog meant wide shots were out of the question. As the next generations of cartoonists mostly learned from the older generations they stuck with that sort of framing. Large shots like that also have an effect on the flow of a page. A big huge panel with a meticulously detailed background and a few small figures says a lot, regardless of context (*I lied).
Theres also the simple fact that American comics are made on deadlines and it's easier to draw a face and figure than it is to tightly detail a background. A great artist like Mignola can communicate the same atmosphere with a small close-up on a single environmental feature.
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Post by Icctrombone on May 12, 2014 20:28:02 GMT -5
Jim Shooter, when he ran Marvel Comics, was a stickler for establishing shots and clear storytelling. You need real editors to reject pages that are a mess.
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2014 20:44:42 GMT -5
Not all American comics are made on deadlines, and the "American style" of close shots is very prevalent even in independent comics. I can almost tell a European comic at a glance by looking at a page online because of the emphasis on atmosphere and setting as opposed to the emphasis on the main characters. Mainstream comics can have incredibly intricate backgrounds as well, but the main character is never pushed off to the side. He's always front and center, looking right at you.
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Post by the4thpip on May 13, 2014 4:51:48 GMT -5
Would Will Eisner be European by that logic?
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