I disagree about that... I really enjoyed him as 'Hank Pym-science adventurer' with West Coast Avengers, and it was pretty good in the Avengers:Initiative and Academy books... back when they were making him the 'scientist supreme' of the MU.

Thanks RR, I had a blast doing the podcast.  CB is the man. 

The subject of this podcast was discussed a bit on a FB group and Bob Hall commented.

"Bob Hall
In defense. I was willing to draw whatever they handed me at that point. Page rates were so low then you couldn't get on your high horse. Also I think my art for this run was pretty awful. After this series I signed up with a studio in NY and drew human figures for the next eight years or so. I know some fans like what I did and I'm grateful. But while the storytelling (as opposed to the story line) wasn't bad, my drawing got better after I took some classes."

Well I'm finally caught up to issue #213, so I checked out this episode tonight. You guys did a hell of a job. I had no idea that Shooter blamed Hall for the backhand. I can believe that Shooter intended for a moment of lighter intensiveness that was still a physical expression of what was already an emotionally abusive relationship, driving Jan to leave and Hank to change without going this far off the rails.

Perhaps more significantly, I agree with Scott's comment that Hank's descent happens too quickly, as well as spoon's assertion that the whole thing felt forced. The new lineup in #211 felt rushed and out of nowhere, Hank's behavior in #212 felt forced/rushed, Cap's reaction in #213 felt forced, and Jan's transformation from blubbering, apologizing victim to resolved survivor in the span of a few panels felt very very rushed.

I do respect what Shooter was trying to do. I read the first ten issues of Avengers, and then #80 up thru #213 over the past few years, and I have almost no impression of Hank from any of it. #211 was a slap in the face to me because THOSE were the Avengers I'd been following for over a hundred issues; they were the folks I was invested in, and there were still stories left to tell with them. To brush them aside without significant explanation and then immediately turn one of their replacements into a piece of trash who got drummed out two issues later felt like a slap in the face. And yet, what Shooter did to Hank didn't bother me at all because he'd been such a non-entity in these pages for such a long time. I can see how, if I'd read more of the early run, and if I'd read the solo stories in Tales to Astonish, I would care, but as someone reading The Avengers for a full decade leading up to this issue, Hank just wasn't on my radar in the slightest.

It's interesting how Icctrombone praised Alan Moore early in this episode because what Shooter does to Hank feels prototypical of what Moore did to the Charlton characters with Watchmen, as well as the general trend he set for writers that came after him: find a seed of truth in a character's backstory and exaggerate it to create a darker, more fallable character to which an adult reader can better relate. Shooter takes such pains to show how all the costume/name changes and frequent shifting from member, to reserve member, to non-member could be an expression of insecurity, and I can see it. It's no more true to the original character than Frank Miller was to Batman, but there's a satisfactory logic at work. You can accept it and even find it clever if you're willing to let go of the classic interpretation.

One final thought about Shooter: His interest in an abused woman here closely resembles #200's concern with a woman in a somewhat different abusive situation. Proof that was can blame #200 on Shooter after all?

But yeah, once a "hero" backhands his wife, there is no convincing redemption to be found. I haven't read beyond #213 yet, but I have absolutely zero problem with the fact that fans have never let this moment go.

Plenty of people get divorces without physical abuse. Even without the backhand, #213 shows that Hank has grown totally distant and emotionally abusive towards Jan. A slight nudge that accidentally knocks her over and Hank refusing to turn to see if she is okay could have been just enough to be a final straw.




Well yeah, I mean it's clear his reason for doing this was that he had a story to tell, regardless of the many stories that were left to tell with the current team. And the reason the book had been lousy for a year was that, after the issue #200 debacle, Shooter hadn't left a regular team in charge of the book. I suspect he was Gene Coloning each writer who took a stab and wasn't delivering what he wanted. Several of the pre-#211 issues show promise, but none were allowed to develop beyond an issue or two.



Sure. If that's the story Shooter was going to tell, that's how he needed to tell it. But much as you hate what he did to Hank for the sake of the story he felt he needed to tell, I hate what he did to the title. Shooter's a bit of an idea bulldozer, isn't he? He wants that story built and doesn't care what he has to knock down to get it built.




I suspect Shooter's very reason for doing this was that Hank Pym was not a top character. Despite being a founding Avenger, he'd fallen into relative obscurity and had precious few fans demanding his return. Thus, Shooter planned to knock him down and then build him back up better than ever.

As for the Charlton characters, Moore's original plan was to use and effectively destroy the original characters until DC editorial changed their minds and told him he had to change the names. Should have been the end of Captain Atom, Blue Beetle, The Question, and everyone else.


I think we both agree Shooter knocked down things we loved in order to tell a story that (at least you and Scott assure me) ends up being pretty worth while. We're just passionate about different things that got knocked down. I probably should go back and read those early Hank Pym stories.

It's been about three years since I read #137-181, but my vague memory has Hank more in the background while Jan took a more prominent role. I think writers were trying to make up for her previous depictions as a shallow airhead in the age of gender equality but, unintentionally, this tipped the balance in their relationship. Jan was in the forefront and Hank was not.

I truly and honestly have no real memories of Hank from this time period except for one vague memory of him clashing with Hawkeye over the Goliath identity.

You know, that's got me thinking. Wanda and Vision effectively replaced Jan and Hank as the resident married couple on the team. In a way, Shooter just re-inserted Hank and Jan into their roles on the team -- Vision constantly tormented with doubt and insecurity, and Wanda perpetually being supportive and understanding. Maybe Hank's "long history" of insecurity was really just an extension and exaggeration of Vision's.