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Post by Cei-U! on Jan 7, 2021 20:57:53 GMT -5
...in which we talk about the scripters who didn't make our Top Twelve but were under serious consideration.
All but one of the writers I considered but ultimately cut made other people's lists: Roger Stern, Paul Levitz, David Michelinie, John Broome, Mike Baron, Jo Duffy, Michael Fleisher, Harvey Kurtzman, Matt Wagner, William Messner-Loebs, Mike W. Barr, Dick DeBartolo, Mark Waid, and J. M. DeMatteis. The lone exception was Martin Pasko.
I'm also amazed at the number of writers receiving multiple votes whose work I've never read, including Warren Ellis, Garth Ennis, Pat Mills, Gail Simone, Jimmy Palmiotti, John Wagner, and Ed Brubaker. Guess I'll have to do something about that one of these eons.
Cei-U! I summon the might-have-beens!
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Post by codystarbuck on Jan 7, 2021 23:55:17 GMT -5
I wrote of William Messner-Loebs, whose Epicurus is one of my personal favorites; but whose Jonny Quest is a pure delight of classic adventure and character pieces.
Mike Bar is another, though not for his DC work, as much; Oh, I enjoy his Batman graphic novels, with Ra's al Ghul, which he handled better than anyone but Denny O'Neil. No, for me, it is Maze Agency. It is fair-play mystery with two of the most engaging characters in comics, catching a classic mystery vibe, mixing Nick & Nora Charles with Ellery Queen, while giving it a modern sheen, ala Moonlighting and Remington Steele. Not only that, but there was a sweet little romance there, and some damn fine writing.
Mike Baron was a consideration for Nexus; Pierre Christin for Valerian and his work with Bilal, Kazuo Koike for Lone Wolf and Cub and Crying Freeman, Paul Levitz for the pre-Crisis Huntress and Legion of Superheroes. I would include Peter O'Donnell, for Modesty Blaise, but that is a comic strip, reprinted in books, though he did write the one-shot that Dick Giordano drew, for DC, which was based on the plot to his first Modesty novel (which was adapted from his unused screenplay for the Joseph Losey film of the 1960s).
Len Wein and Marv Wolfman were also considered; Len for Swamp Thing and his Batman stories, as well as some of his Justice League. Marv for New Teen Titans, his Daredevil run (which I love) and Tomb of Dracula. Don McGregor is one I feel is much maligned, without understanding. He is wordy; but, he is also philosophical, existential and anything but ordinary. He mixed satire, sci-fi, urban adventure, social muckraking, philosophy, crime fiction, mystery and just about anything that filtered through his mind.
Eliott Maggin I would suggest for his sheer number of great Superman stories; but more for his two novels. His Kingdom Come novel also offers both an expansion of the story and a new viewpoint on it. It gives it greater depth.
One name that was not out there that I think should be considered as one of the best voices to come through comics was Will Franz. Franz is known for his writing on Charlton's war comics, working with Sam Glanzman. These aren't your run-of-the-mill war stories; in my eyes they surpass Kanigher and even Kurtzman, to a certain extent. Franz and Glanzman collaborated on two features at Charlton; the lesser known is The Iron Corporal, in Army War Heroes. It tells the story of an American soldier, serving with an Australian unit, in the South Pacific, who suffers a grave injury that requires him to wear an iron corset to protect his injuries, which gives him some protection against bullets. That is a bit far fetched, but, it tended to feature some realistic stories of fighting and Franz did his research, enough to impress a veteran (both of comics and WW2) in Sam Glanzman.
Franz's real masterpiece, though, is The Lonely War of Captain Willy Schultz, a feature that carried multiple issues of Fightin' Army. Schultz is an American officer, the child of German immigrants. He is framed for a murder and escapes after being court martialed. he finds himself behind German lines and puts on German uniform to hide out, safe in his perfect German accent. however, he soon finds himself caught up in the fighting, on the wrong side, as he grows to become friends with some of his fellow soldiers, while also seeking not to fight his own side. The feature was one of the best examinations of enemy soldiers as human beings, rather than caricatures, even more than the excellent Enemy Ace. Hans Von Hammer was a natural killer, who had remorse, but kept on flying and killing. Willy Schultz is just a guy caught in an extraordinary situation, who just tries to stay alive.
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Post by foxley on Jan 8, 2021 3:00:19 GMT -5
Like most other posters, I had a number of writers who I eliminated because they primarily illustrate their own work, work with co-authors, or whose major output is too recent. But there were a number of other writers who received serious consideration but did not quite make the cut. My near misses: Roy Thomas was literally the last name bounced from list, and a very reluctant cut. My love of him stems mostly from his work on All-Star Squadron and Infinity, Inc., although I have come to a belated appreciation of his Conan work. Eventually he got pushed from my list for a number of reasons. On rereading All-Star Squadron, I was struck by how wordy his writing was, approaching 'wall of text' levels. while this did not bother me when the books was coming out, it does grate on me a little now. Also many of my favourite works of Roy he co-wrote with his wife Dann, so titles like Jonni Thunder, A.K.A. Thunderbolt could not influence my judgement. And I ultimately realised that many of the traits I love in Roy Thomas (love of continuity, respect for creators that have come before him, detailed knowledge of his settings, etc.) are even better embodied by Kurt Busiek, who definitely had a spot. But I was glad to see Roy appear on so many other lists, many praising his Marvel work that I know little about. Don McGregor was the second last name edged off my list. Ultimately though, he was on my list primarily for his 12 issue run of Zorro from Topps, and I decided that the last spot should go someone with a much larger body of work that I loved. Alan Moore was one I was sure would be on a lot of lists so I did not feel bad about excluding him. While I do love much of his work, I find it very hard to separate the creator from his work. And I never know what I'm going to get from Moore. I could be getting Watchmen or I could be getting LOEG: Century. Greg Rucka and Ed Brubaker weren't on my list mostly because I didn't think enough about them. I was thinking of their more recent work and forgot about their earlier stuff like Whiteout and Gotham Central.
Archie Goodwin is another one came within a hairsbreadth of making my list. If I hadn't been in a nostalgic mood regarding Cary Bates, he could easily have had the #11 slot. Would definitely be on my top 15.
Chuck Dixon is a solid, dependable workhorse of a writer. I know I am always going to get a good story from him. Had this been a Top 20, he would have had a place on it.
Devin Grayson got serious consideration from me because I felt a little odd having only one female scribe on my list. However, when I reviewed her work, I decided it was a little bit too hit-and-miss in the allowed era to secure a spot. If this is repeated a few years down the track when more of her post-2010 work is eligible, who knows?
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 8, 2021 5:22:24 GMT -5
Yep, the 'writer only' rule also confounded me a bit, and I still considered putting in a few names of writer-artists by citing the stuff they only wrote, like Joann Sfar for the delightful Professor’s Daughter or Walt Simonson for last leg of his legendary run on Thor and a few other things. But I quickly decided against doing that, as I didn't want to engage in any clever rules-lawyering - and it seemed to go against the spirit of this year's theme anyway. Steve Gerber was one of the last ones to get cut - and I'm still thinking maybe I should have included him. By the way, in the other write-up by members who included him, I was a bit surprised that Howard the Duck was mentioned so often as a favorite. I never read that series back at the time, and when I did much later, like about 10 years ago, I thought it mostly didn't age well at all. Personally, I'm far more fond of his work on Defenders, Guardians of the Galaxy, the Phantom Zone mini, Nevada, A Bizarro, his Superman Elseworlds stories and, especially, Man-Thing, and the absolute best story in his run, in Man-Thing #9-10 (the 'Dawg' story): A few others who came under serious consideration: Bruce Jones for Ka-Zar the Savage in the early 1980s. I regretfully cut him because I no longer have any of those comics, haven't read any of them since my teens, so I couldn't go through and re-evaluate them. Mike Barr, mainly for his Batman stories. Tony Isabella for his work on Black Lightning. (Mary) Jo Duffy for her work on Power Man & Iron Fist. Kurt Busiek for Astro City (of which I've so far only read the initial 6-issue series) and Arrowsmith. And Len Wein, Steve Englehart and Roy Thomas, but I figured a lot of others would choose them as well.
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Post by brutalis on Jan 8, 2021 8:02:49 GMT -5
Know ye oh comic readers I say thee nay is this a list of near misses but is more a list of true hitters of the mark! For born from their writings ALL make my list being essential reading of my youth. In truth I never had to follow these creators for they were ever present upon the spinner racks.
Whether writing for the big two, Marvel or DC or in various other publishers, they are classic reading joy in their hits and even in their misses...
Stan Lee, Roy Thomas, Len Wein, Marv Wolfman, Gerry Conway, Denny O'Neil, Bill Mantlo, Roger Stern, Mark Gruenwald, David Michelinie, Tom DeFalco, J.M. Dematteis, Steve Gerber, Steve Englehart, Don McGregor, Chris Claremont. Archie Goodwin, Christopher Priest, Mark Evanier, Kurt Busiek, John Ostrander, Chuck Dixon, Bob Haney, Gardner Fox, Cary Bates, Paul Levitz, William Messner-Loebs, Alan Moore, John Wagner, Garth Ennis and Neil Gaiman.
Special mention to Archie writers I grew up reading but at times never knew their names: George Gladir, Frank Doyle, Rich Margopoulos, Craig Boldman.
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Post by MDG on Jan 8, 2021 9:40:24 GMT -5
As I said before, I'm kicking myself for forgetting Harvey Pekar, who should've been 2 or 3 on my list. Another that probably would've been in the top 12 if I remembered in time is Frank Robbins.
The ones who made the initial cut but not the final include Tom Veitch, Bruce Jones, Mark Evanier, Nicola Cuti, Gardner Fox, Bob Haney, and Stan Lee.
The ones who I would've considered if I had read more of their work include Charles Biro, Richard Hughes, Paul S. Newman, and Carlos Sampayo.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,860
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Post by shaxper on Jan 8, 2021 9:53:22 GMT -5
It genuinely hurt me to cut Michael Fleischer, Len Wein, and J.M. DeMatteis from my list. Stan Lee also narrowly missed my top twelve, but I knew he'd get plenty of love from others.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 8, 2021 10:09:10 GMT -5
I knew I was going to include one golden age writer among Gardner Fox, Jerry Siegel and Bill Finger. Finger got the nod, so the other two were near misses.
James Robinson and Steve Englehart got serious consideration but they both have too many stories I just plain disliked in addition to the handful of runs I adore, so they got a passed over. One of them might have gotten the nod if I decided against including Warren Ellis, but would have been lower on my list than Ellis was.
Alan Moore got consideration, and again had it been a best list instead of favorite, he would have been on there, but too much self-indulgent stuff like Birth Caul, Snakes and Ladders, the disappointment of later LOEG installments and my meh reception for a lot of his pre-Swamp Thing stuff made it easy for me to pass over him in favor of other writers who more consistently hit it for me.
The no cartoonist rule was the biggest factor in shaping the list, as several of my favorite writers do their own art. I considered sneaking Jeff Smith in there on the strength of the Rose mini with art by Charles Vess, as it is one of my absolute favorite books he has done, but it felt too much like gaming the system for me, so I went in another direction.
Others getting consideration, but eliminated early on were Mike Grell (too much of his oeuvre was also drawn by him), Mark Waid, Harvey Kurtzman, Christopher Priest and Andy Diggle )too recent for most of the stuff I like from him).
-M
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 8, 2021 10:55:46 GMT -5
I talked about most of my misses when I did my daily recaps. So that group included, Frank Miller, Kurt Busiek, James Robinson, Jason Aaron, Archie Goodwin, Max Allan Collins and Len Wein.
I am still mad at myself that I didn't think of Michael Fleisher because he might well have made my list.
Others that nobody mentioned (that I remember).
Larry Siegel, Al Jaffee and Arnie Kogan. I wasn't lying when I said I could do a list with just Mad writers. I felt bad leaving all three off, but I felt I had to do so.
Juan Diaz Canales - Man I love Blacksad. I still feel this was a hard cut.
Rick Veitch - Veitch's Swamp Thing was almost as good Moore's and was better than Moore's last year.
A few writer/artists that did a fair bit of just writing got consideration, and would have made a comprehensive list...Howard Chaykin, Tim Truman and Mike Grell.
One who will be on the list without a shadow of a doubt as soon as he qualifies is Mark Russell.
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 8, 2021 16:16:40 GMT -5
One name that was not out there that I think should be considered as one of the best voices to come through comics was Will Franz. Franz is known for his writing on Charlton's war comics, working with Sam Glanzman. These aren't your run-of-the-mill war stories; in my eyes they surpass Kanigher and even Kurtzman, to a certain extent. Franz and Glanzman collaborated on two features at Charlton; the lesser known is The Iron Corporal, in Army War Heroes. It tells the story of an American soldier, serving with an Australian unit, in the South Pacific, who suffers a grave injury that requires him to wear an iron corset to protect his injuries, which gives him some protection against bullets. That is a bit far fetched, but, it tended to feature some realistic stories of fighting and Franz did his research, enough to impress a veteran (both of comics and WW2) in Sam Glanzman. Franz's real masterpiece, though, is The Lonely War of Captain Willy Schultz, a feature that carried multiple issues of Fightin' Army. Schultz is an American officer, the child of German immigrants. He is framed for a murder and escapes after being court martialed. he finds himself behind German lines and puts on German uniform to hide out, safe in his perfect German accent. however, he soon finds himself caught up in the fighting, on the wrong side, as he grows to become friends with some of his fellow soldiers, while also seeking not to fight his own side. The feature was one of the best examinations of enemy soldiers as human beings, rather than caricatures, even more than the excellent Enemy Ace. Hans Von Hammer was a natural killer, who had remorse, but kept on flying and killing. Willy Schultz is just a guy caught in an extraordinary situation, who just tries to stay alive. I've not read The Lonely War of Captain Willy Schultz. I supported a Kickstarter for its re-printing. We'll see if it ever materializes.
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Post by Calamas on Jan 8, 2021 16:33:57 GMT -5
I said at the beginning that my list would be heavy on nostalgia. Above are the first five comics I ever bought. First: The Flash #251: Cary Bates and Irv Novick Adventure Comics #452 (Aquaman): David Michelinie and Jim Aparo Wonder Woman #230: Martin Pasko and Jose Delbo And on the next trip: Batman #291 by David V. Reed and John Calnan Brave & the Bold #136 by Bob Haney and Jim Aparo And so: Marty PaskoThe only member of my initial introduction to comics not to make my list. In part because I think he missed in trying to capture the tone of E-Man for First Comics, but mainly because I didn’t like what he considered his greatest work: his Swamp Thing run. It’s my natural bias against conspiracy stories but . . . it’s also my list. So, near miss. Plus:Steven T. Seagle
Sustained the quality of Sandman Mystery Theatre when fully taking over from Matt Wagner, and his other forays into the greater DC Universe were always entertaining. Mike W. BarrLoved Camelot 3000, Maze Agency, his Star Trek work at DC, and his part of the Demon Trilogy ( Batman: Son of the Demon; Batman: Bride of the Demon). Only his up-and-down work on Batman & the Outsiders mars his resume’. It may be unfair to use efforts from early in his career against him, but I had to make one last round of cuts. James RobinsonHe caught my attention immediately with Golden Age. Starman was near-brilliant but I think he achieved even greater results with The Shade maxi-series. Only his Justice League run produced diminishing returns. I understand DC sabotaged him by restricting what characters he could use, but the work is the work. And again, I had to cut somewhere. Brian K. VaughnReally like what I read. Just don’t feel I’ve read enough of it bump somebody else from my list. Kurt BusiekAlways created quality work. Just never made it to favorite status. Marc GuggenheimWith each assignment I felt he tried to do something different but not too different. I think he would have cracked the list if he’d had a larger output.
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Post by Calamas on Jan 8, 2021 17:35:49 GMT -5
I had another one on the next page:
Jerry Ordway
Most Writer/Artist when they only write, particularly on titles they once illustrated--Grell, Chaykin, Simonson, Jurgens (I’m sure I’m forgetting some)--seem to lose something in translation. Not with Ordway. I’m sure I’m forgetting somebody here too but definitely Ordway belongs on this list. He could bring the same level of quality without pencil hitting the page.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 8, 2021 20:49:10 GMT -5
I've not read The Lonely War of Captain Willy Schultz. I supported a Kickstarter for its re-printing. We'll see if it ever materializes. Didn't you get the pdf version? I got mine (it was all I pledged for) a few months ago*. I know the hard-copy book has been delayed, but I thought the electronic version was sent to everyone who pledged.
* Haven't read it yet...
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Post by Slam_Bradley on Jan 9, 2021 0:06:44 GMT -5
I've not read The Lonely War of Captain Willy Schultz. I supported a Kickstarter for its re-printing. We'll see if it ever materializes. Didn't you get the pdf version? I got mine (it was all I pledged for) a few months ago*. I know the hard-copy book has been delayed, but I thought the electronic version was sent to everyone who pledged.
* Haven't read it yet...
Yeah. I think so. But I’ve kind of been waiting for the actual book.
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Post by EdoBosnar on Jan 9, 2021 5:28:12 GMT -5
Yeah. I think so. But I’ve kind of been waiting for the actual book. I can understand that. It's just that the delays on this particular book have been so extensive, I'm thinking your only option may be to just read the pdf version.
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