fred2
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by fred2 on Oct 26, 2014 16:27:16 GMT -5
Yes, Superman came first. But before Superboy was Captain Marvel Jr.. Before Supergirl, there was Mary Marvel. Mr. Atom before Brainiac, and Black Adam or Ibac before Bizzarro as an evil reverse-villain.
I have been reading early Action and Whizz comics and Captain Marvel seems to have more "super hero" elements to it. I especially like the Bulletman/Captain Marvel crossover with Captain Nazi that leads to the creation of Captain Marvel Jr.
When I read the first Superman stories, they are not superhero stories at all. They are more like social commentaries on corrupt oil companies, footballteams, mining companies that skirt regulations, war profiteering...(my gosh it sounds like today!) I like those stories too, but they are different.
Part of this may be due that superman is the first "super" hero and fantastic stories with supervillains had not gelled yet.
I am struck that Sivana in his first appearance demands $50 million dollars! In 1939. No Dr. Evil here. Meanwhile, the Ultra-humanite in Action comics is menacing taxis from his log cabin.
What do you think? Anything else from Captain Marvel that influenced Superman?
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Oct 26, 2014 18:35:34 GMT -5
The only direct influence, I believe, Captain Marvel played on Superman is when Otto Binder began writing Superman stories after the Big Red Cheese ceased publishing. Before that I'm sure the folks at DC held CM in disdain and wanted nothing similar
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 26, 2014 18:39:10 GMT -5
Interesting facts. I didn't know that the family elements came first from the CMarvel stories. But I'm of the opinion that once the initial concept is invented, anyone with similar trappings( flight , strength , cape etc) is a idea that was borrowed . Years ago Neil Giaman won a lawsuit that gave him rights to charavters invented in Todd Mcfarlanes book. I agreed that he owned Angela but inventing Medieval Spawn didn't make it an original idea.
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Oct 26, 2014 18:52:56 GMT -5
Ashcan editions of titles like Superboy,Supergirl and Superwoman were registered way before Captain Marvel's family. However Jerry Siegel was adamantly opposed against the idea of spinoffs of Superman. It wasn't until Siegel was in the army that Superboy got the go ahead for publication which helped to lead Siegel to leave DC
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Crimebuster
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Making comics!
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Post by Crimebuster on Oct 26, 2014 19:02:53 GMT -5
Ashcan editions of titles like Superboy,Supergirl and Superwoman were registered way before Captain Marvel's family. I'm not sure this is quite true. Captain Marvel Jr. first appeared in comics cover dated December, 1941. The Superboy ashcan has a cover date of January, 1942, suggesting that it was filed after Captain Marvel Jr.'s first appearance. One could even argue that the proximity even suggests correlation.
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,871
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Post by shaxper on Oct 26, 2014 19:03:31 GMT -5
Didn't most of Superman's powers get lifted from Captain Marvel? Batson was the one who could fly, was totally impervious to harm, and had super smarts and speed to boot. Superman just leaped higher than skyscrapers and was impossibly strong.
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fred2
Junior Member
Posts: 78
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Post by fred2 on Oct 26, 2014 19:33:01 GMT -5
With Halloween soon, I recommend reading the last story in Captain Marvel Adventures #1. You haven't lived until you've seen Billy Batson fend off a vampire with a half eaten garlic sausage sandwich.
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Post by Icctrombone on Oct 26, 2014 20:59:54 GMT -5
Ashcan editions of titles like Superboy,Supergirl and Superwoman were registered way before Captain Marvel's family. I'm not sure this is quite true. Captain Marvel Jr. first appeared in comics cover dated December, 1941. The Superboy ashcan has a cover date of January, 1942, suggesting that it was filed after Captain Marvel Jr.'s first appearance. One could even argue that the proximity even suggests correlation. </div>I don't see Superboy on that cover...
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Oct 26, 2014 21:09:24 GMT -5
I'm not sure this is quite true. Captain Marvel Jr. first appeared in comics cover dated December, 1941. The Superboy ashcan has a cover date of January, 1942, suggesting that it was filed after Captain Marvel Jr.'s first appearance. One could even argue that the proximity even suggests correlation. </div>I don't see Superboy on that cover... They were just trying to lay claim to the names, not actually producing the comic
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Post by hondobrode on Oct 27, 2014 0:55:52 GMT -5
Yes, Superman came first. But before Superboy was Captain Marvel Jr.. Before Supergirl, there was Mary Marvel. Mr. Atom before Brainiac, and Black Adam or Ibac before Bizzarro as an evil reverse-villain. I have been reading early Action and Whizz comics and Captain Marvel seems to have more "super hero" elements to it. I especially like the Bulletman/Captain Marvel crossover with Captain Nazi that leads to the creation of Captain Marvel Jr. When I read the first Superman stories, they are not superhero stories at all. They are more like social commentaries on corrupt oil companies, footballteams, mining companies that skirt regulations, war profiteering...(my gosh it sounds like today!) I like those stories too, but they are different. Part of this may be due that superman is the first "super" hero and fantastic stories with supervillains had not gelled yet. I am struck that Sivana in his first appearance demands $50 million dollars! In 1939. No Dr. Evil here. Meanwhile, the Ultra-humanite in Action comics is menacing taxis from his log cabin. What do you think? Anything else from Captain Marvel that influenced Superman? You make some very interesting observations. Yes indeed, who lifted from whom ?
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Confessor
CCF Mod Squad
Not Bucky O'Hare!
Posts: 10,202
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Post by Confessor on Oct 27, 2014 4:26:35 GMT -5
Question: why are ashcan covers called ashcan? What does the word mean?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2014 7:52:01 GMT -5
Question: why are ashcan covers called ashcan? What does the word mean? Confessor read the Wikipedia Article, to me it's the publisher to establish copyright on a particular character and therefore make that character there very own without having a competitor to go in and steal the moniker, the costume design, and other things that make the character unique in existence. This is the best answer that I can come up with based on what I read in Wikipedia. From Wikipedia ... BelowAn ashcan copy is a term that originated in the Golden Age of Comic Books, meant to describe a publication produced solely for legal purposes (such as trademark), and not normally intended for distribution. "Publishers had to produce only two copies of each copyrighted "ashcan" production - 1) for the Library of Congress and 2) for their records -fewer than fives copies exist for most of these productions." During the golden age of comics, ashcan editions of comics where printed to establish copyright. They often went straight from the printer to the "ashcan". Today, "ashcans" could more accurately be described as mini or digest comics. The word ashcan is a synonym for any type of waste receptacle whose contents are to be incinerated. The implication in comic publishing is that the printed material will go straight from the printer to the trash, which was often the case. Ashcan editions frequently contained unlettered stories and unfinished art. Their purpose was simply to justify the publisher's claim to a title, thereby preventing a competitor from publishing a the same or similar title. Ashcans were also produced to demonstrate the publications to potential advertisers. One example, called the "best known ashcan race", is Flash Comics #1 by Fawcett Comics, which introduced Captain Thunder (later Captain Marvel). Competitor All-American Comics had already published a Flash Comics title, and created a character named "Captain Thunder", so the Flash Comics ashcan failed to claim those trademarks for the company, but it did establish a publication date for copyright purposes. Ashcan- A publisher's in-house facsimile of a proposed new title. Most ashcans have black and white covers stapled to an existing coverless comic on the inside; other ashcans are totally black and white. In modern parlance, it can also refer to promotional or sold comics, often smaller than standard comic size and usually in black and white, released by publishers to advertise the forthcoming arrival of a new title or story.In modern comics, ashcan editions may refer to promotional comics in the independent/self-publishing market. The term is sometimes synonymous with mini-comics.
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Post by MDG on Oct 27, 2014 12:26:34 GMT -5
Yes, Superman came first. But before Superboy was Captain Marvel Jr.. Before Supergirl, there was Mary Marvel. Mr. Atom before Brainiac, and Black Adam or Ibac before Bizzarro as an evil reverse-villain. I have been reading early Action and Whizz comics and Captain Marvel seems to have more "super hero" elements to it. I especially like the Bulletman/Captain Marvel crossover with Captain Nazi that leads to the creation of Captain Marvel Jr. ... What do you think? Anything else from Captain Marvel that influenced Superman? Interesting take, and maybe not far from the truth. Certainly having a wider "family" gave Fawcett the opportunity to have multiple Capt. Marvel titles on the stands each month, something DC didn't do as much 'til at least after the war, and with a vengeance after the code came in.
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Post by gothos on Oct 27, 2014 17:36:18 GMT -5
Yes, Superman came first. But before Superboy was Captain Marvel Jr.. Before Supergirl, there was Mary Marvel. Mr. Atom before Brainiac, and Black Adam or Ibac before Bizzarro as an evil reverse-villain. I have been reading early Action and Whizz comics and Captain Marvel seems to have more "super hero" elements to it. I especially like the Bulletman/Captain Marvel crossover with Captain Nazi that leads to the creation of Captain Marvel Jr. When I read the first Superman stories, they are not superhero stories at all. They are more like social commentaries on corrupt oil companies, footballteams, mining companies that skirt regulations, war profiteering...(my gosh it sounds like today!) I like those stories too, but they are different. Part of this may be due that superman is the first "super" hero and fantastic stories with supervillains had not gelled yet. I am struck that Sivana in his first appearance demands $50 million dollars! In 1939. No Dr. Evil here. Meanwhile, the Ultra-humanite in Action comics is menacing taxis from his log cabin. What do you think? Anything else from Captain Marvel that influenced Superman? I'd noticed the lack of freewheeling fantasy in early Siegel SUPERMAN stories a long time ago, but I'd tended to put it down to my opinion that Siegel, even though he probably read just as much pulp-fantasy as Binder or the other Captain Marvel raconteurs, just wasn't as inventive as the better comics-writers of the period. And while I still tend to think that as a fantasist Siegel was only so-so in his early work-- as opposed to his inspired Superman work of the 1950s and 1960s-- another factor suddenly occurs to me. Remember what the original idea for SUPERMAN was? It wasn't originally designed for comic books, even though it proved to be a perfect match-- but for comic strips. So maybe when Siegel was putting together the idea with Shuster, the idea was to emphasize the stark contrast between Superman and the real world of swindlers, dirty politics, et al. Those were the sort of ideas that kept strips DICK TRACY and CAPTAIN EASY percolating, and it may be that Siegel was thinking in those terms. By contrast, the only account I've seen of Captain Marvel's creation by Fawcett editor Bill Parker is that he originally meant to star a team of characters with mythological powers. Following the success of Superman, Parker merged his team into one character with many powers. So from the first Captain Marvel was oriented on conjuring a world of gods and monsters, so to speak. Parenthetically I'll note that though Siegel wasn't known for creating a lot of memorable villains in the Superman series-- or in the Spectre, for that matter-- I've read a handful of his Star-Spangled Kid tales, where he evolved a nice set of returning foes for the Kid and Stripesy.
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Post by gothos on Oct 27, 2014 17:52:22 GMT -5
Ashcan editions of titles like Superboy,Supergirl and Superwoman were registered way before Captain Marvel's family. However Jerry Siegel was adamantly opposed against the idea of spinoffs of Superman. It wasn't until Siegel was in the army that Superboy got the go ahead for publication which helped to lead Siegel to leave DC Do you remember where you read about Siegel's opposition to spinoffs? I have to say that, going on memory, I have a different recollection from Jones' MEN OF TOMORROW. First, Jones says somewhere that Siegel proposed the Superboy idea to DC, so he obviously wanted to do it under the aegis of the studio he and Shuster oversaw. I suspect that DC wanted to do it, but they wanted to cut Siegel out, and so waited until he was enlisted, and then released the title. As you may have heard, part of Siegel's later suits involved suing over the concept of Superboy. I'm fairly sure that Jones also speculated that a story in SUPERMAN #6 (1940) may have been a trial balloon for a "Superwoman" feature starring Lois Lane, and that DC squelched that one for all time, unless you count the eventual invention of Supergirl, though she owes more to Mary Marvel than anything Siegel might have done. Here's what I recently wrote on SUPERMAN #6: "In this untitled story, Superman arrives on the scene of a collapsing stadium, and must choose between saving Lois or a group of children from being crushed by falling debris. Lois, who courageously tells the hero to save the children first, is injured when he does so. However, her injuries vanish like magic when Superman gives her a blood-transfusion. Gerard Jones, among others, believes that Jerry Siegel was floating a narrative that might have made it possible for Lois to become a superwoman, since it concludes with the recovered reporter saying, "I feel stronger than I've ever felt." But if the idea was proposed, clearly the editors, preferring a status quo, rejected it."
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