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Post by Ish Kabbible on Oct 27, 2014 18:06:20 GMT -5
Ashcan editions of titles like Superboy,Supergirl and Superwoman were registered way before Captain Marvel's family. However Jerry Siegel was adamantly opposed against the idea of spinoffs of Superman. It wasn't until Siegel was in the army that Superboy got the go ahead for publication which helped to lead Siegel to leave DC Do you remember where you read about Siegel's opposition to spinoffs? I have to say that, going on memory, I have a different recollection from Jones' MEN OF TOMORROW. First, Jones says somewhere that Siegel proposed the Superboy idea to DC, so he obviously wanted to do it under the aegis of the studio he and Shuster oversaw. I suspect that DC wanted to do it, but they wanted to cut Siegel out, and so waited until he was enlisted, and then released the title. As you may have heard, part of Siegel's later suits involved suing over the concept of Superboy. I'm fairly sure that Jones also speculated that a story in SUPERMAN #6 (1940) may have been a trial balloon for a "Superwoman" feature starring Lois Lane, and that DC squelched that one for all time, unless you count the eventual invention of Supergirl, though she owes more to Mary Marvel than anything Siegel might have done. Here's what I recently wrote on SUPERMAN #6: "In this untitled story, Superman arrives on the scene of a collapsing stadium, and must choose between saving Lois or a group of children from being crushed by falling debris. Lois, who courageously tells the hero to save the children first, is injured when he does so. However, her injuries vanish like magic when Superman gives her a blood-transfusion. Gerard Jones, among others, believes that Jerry Siegel was floating a narrative that might have made it possible for Lois to become a superwoman, since it concludes with the recovered reporter saying, "I feel stronger than I've ever felt." But if the idea was proposed, clearly the editors, preferring a status quo, rejected it." I recall reading a few articles from the late and lamented Comic Book marketplace fanzine years ago, most probably Superman themed issues, where former editors or other DC personne; recalled Siegel being opposed to further Superman spinoff titles. Between Action,Superman,Worlds Finest and other occassional issues, Siegel and Shuster both felt their studio was handling maximum output and anything additional could cause them to lose control of the Superman property. Jerry might had been agreeable to additional characters added, but expanding the family of books would be of his time of choice. So DC just waited until he was inducted in the army and they did what they wanted |
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Post by justicefreak on Oct 27, 2014 20:45:20 GMT -5
Didn't most of Superman's powers get lifted from Captain Marvel? Batson was the one who could fly, was totally impervious to harm, and had super smarts and speed to boot. Superman just leaped higher than skyscrapers and was impossibly strong. People tend to forget about the history...glad you reminded me of that. While I like both heroes....I favor Cap over Supes. perhaps more of a connectivity of being able to relate to the character/alter |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2014 12:03:26 GMT -5
Captain Marvel Adventures sold fourteen million copies in 1944, and was at one point being published bi-weekly with a circulation of 1.3 million copies an issue. Fawcett Publications blew DC out of the water for a time there, and they did it initially by copying Superman. Wow.
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Post by dupersuper on Oct 28, 2014 23:14:08 GMT -5
Didn't most of Superman's powers get lifted from Captain Marvel? Batson was the one who could fly, was totally impervious to harm, and had super smarts and speed to boot. Superman just leaped higher than skyscrapers and was impossibly strong. I can't speak to all of those abilities, but Supes was always supposed to be "a genius in intellect". |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 28, 2014 23:27:38 GMT -5
Didn't most of Superman's powers get lifted from Captain Marvel? Batson was the one who could fly, was totally impervious to harm, and had super smarts and speed to boot. Superman just leaped higher than skyscrapers and was impossibly strong. I can't speak to all of those abilities, but Supes was always supposed to be "a genius in intellect". As of when, though? I definitely don't recall it being mentioned in those first adventures. Meanwhile, Batson had the wisdom of Solomon from his very first outing. |
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Post by dupersuper on Oct 29, 2014 2:34:21 GMT -5
I can't speak to all of those abilities, but Supes was always supposed to be "a genius in intellect". As of when, though? I definitely don't recall it being mentioned in those first adventures. Meanwhile, Batson had the wisdom of Solomon from his very first outing. I know it was in golden age captions, but I don't know when it first appeared. |
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Post by Cei-U! on Oct 29, 2014 8:45:02 GMT -5
The "genius in intellect" line was first used in the original Siegel and Shuster presentation art, predating even the costume. (That page has been reproduced several places. I first saw it in Steranko's History of Comics.) So, yeah, it was part of Superman's concept from the beginning, even though the comics themselves rarely showed any sign of it.
Cei-U!
I summon the lowdown!
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Post by Rob Allen on Oct 29, 2014 14:10:13 GMT -5
During the trial, DC's lawyers claimed that Fawcett gave their artists Superman comics and told them to draw Captain Marvel doing the same things.
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Post by gothos on Oct 29, 2014 15:51:33 GMT -5
Do you remember where you read about Siegel's opposition to spinoffs? I have to say that, going on memory, I have a different recollection from Jones' MEN OF TOMORROW. First, Jones says somewhere that Siegel proposed the Superboy idea to DC, so he obviously wanted to do it under the aegis of the studio he and Shuster oversaw. I suspect that DC wanted to do it, but they wanted to cut Siegel out, and so waited until he was enlisted, and then released the title. As you may have heard, part of Siegel's later suits involved suing over the concept of Superboy. I'm fairly sure that Jones also speculated that a story in SUPERMAN #6 (1940) may have been a trial balloon for a "Superwoman" feature starring Lois Lane, and that DC squelched that one for all time, unless you count the eventual invention of Supergirl, though she owes more to Mary Marvel than anything Siegel might have done. Here's what I recently wrote on SUPERMAN #6: "In this untitled story, Superman arrives on the scene of a collapsing stadium, and must choose between saving Lois or a group of children from being crushed by falling debris. Lois, who courageously tells the hero to save the children first, is injured when he does so. However, her injuries vanish like magic when Superman gives her a blood-transfusion. Gerard Jones, among others, believes that Jerry Siegel was floating a narrative that might have made it possible for Lois to become a superwoman, since it concludes with the recovered reporter saying, "I feel stronger than I've ever felt." But if the idea was proposed, clearly the editors, preferring a status quo, rejected it." I recall reading a few articles from the late and lamented Comic Book marketplace fanzine years ago, most probably Superman themed issues, where former editors or other DC personne; recalled Siegel being opposed to further Superman spinoff titles. Between Action,Superman,Worlds Finest and other occassional issues, Siegel and Shuster both felt their studio was handling maximum output and anything additional could cause them to lose control of the Superman property. Jerry might had been agreeable to additional characters added, but expanding the family of books would be of his time of choice. So DC just waited until he was inducted in the army and they did what they wanted Yeah, that makes more sense. I wouldn't have thought Siegel would oppose spinoffs just on artistic grounds, but it totally makes sense that he would want to keep control of his franchise. As I posted earlier, Jones asserted that Siegel actually did a Superboy proposal, and that the DC editors didn't like his playful take on the Superman concept-- which often pops up in early Superman tales as well. If they did indeed reject Siegel's concept, it may have been with the idea of loosening his hold on the franchise. On the Wonder Woman thread the question of WW's participation in the JSA also began to sound like DC finagling with a creator's work in order to marginalize the creator's influence. |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Oct 29, 2014 16:42:53 GMT -5
The competition stretched far beyond just the comics pages. On radio, The Adventures of Superman ran for over a decade, introducing several elements of the Superman mythos which have become canon, including Kryptonite. It's unclear to me how much (if any) input Siegel and Shuster would have had with the radio series, but from what I can discern it was minimal if it existed at all.
Captain Marvel's radio career was short-lived and not terribly successful, airing briefly in 1943 with none of it surviving. However, he did make it to the big screen in a beloved and technically impressive twelve-part film serial produced in 1941 by Republic Pictures and starring Tom Tyler. The flying effects developed for that serial were apparently originally conceived for a proposed Superman serial which failed to materialize. Oh, the irony. Conversely, Superman would not appear in a live-action film version until 1948. |
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Post by Ish Kabbible on Oct 29, 2014 17:05:29 GMT -5
The competition stretched far beyond just the comics pages. On radio, The Adventures of Superman ran for over a decade, introducing several elements of the Superman mythos which have become canon, including Kryptonite. It's unclear to me how much (if any) input Siegel and Shuster would have had with the radio series, but from what I can discern it was minimal if it existed at all.
Captain Marvel's radio career was short-lived and not terribly successful, airing briefly in 1943 with none of it surviving. However, he did make it to the big screen in a beloved and technically impressive twelve-part film serial produced in 1941 by Republic Pictures and starring Tom Tyler. The flying effects developed for that serial were apparently originally conceived for a proposed Superman serial which failed to materialize. Oh, the irony. Conversely, Superman would not appear in a live-action film version until 1948. Instead Superman had those excellant Fleischer Studio theatrical cartoons during the war years. And the Superman newspaper dailes and Sundays were also produced under the auspicies of the Siegel and Shuster Studio |
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Post by Phil Maurice on Oct 29, 2014 17:23:46 GMT -5
Instead Superman had those excellant Fleischer Studio theatrical cartoons during the war years. And the Superman newspaper dailes and Sundays were also produced under the auspicies of the Siegel and Shuster Studio Unquestionably true, Ish. My point was simply that the characters quickly escaped the control of their creators. Ideas began springing from numerous wells, many outside the realm of the comics and outside the oversight of the creators. That many of these ideas became canon suggests a sort of collaborative spirit, but trying to determine what (if anything) was "stolen" and what emerged unconsciously/organically seems to me a monumental undertaking. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Oct 31, 2014 21:10:09 GMT -5
I believe Siegel and Shuster explicitly had it written into their contracts with DC that they would be able to work on the daily strip (as the more stable income was to be found there than in the floppy books). However, this does not mean that they had creative control over the series. They took orders just like anyone else.
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