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Post by Duragizer on Mar 1, 2021 1:45:19 GMT -5
I know it's not a film... but if you're going to gripe about not having a good live action Superman, you all need to go watch the new Superman and Lois show on the CW right now. I have a vehement dislike for the CW and trunkless Superman. It'll take a lot of faith for me to leap those hurdles, maybe more than I can mustre. |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 1, 2021 18:09:28 GMT -5
It's amazing to me that there has never been a truly GREAT Superman film. We've had four GREAT Supermen (Collyer, Reeves, Reeve, and Routhe), but each film has been deeply flawed in one respect or another. The 1978 Reeve film is a beautiful origin story, but the Lex Luthor plot that makes up the second half is absurd, and while the villains in the second film are almost as fantastic as Reeve, the plot leaves so much to be desired. Don't get me started on the rest. Give me one great Superman film. In my mind, that means making the film mostly about Clark's life at the Daily Planet, and weaving a meta human conflict that holds high and meaningful stakes for the people Superman cares about more than a villain who can conveniently thwart the nigh-invulnerable Man of Steel or who is somehow tied to a tragic inner conflict that will make Superman darker and more flawed. I disagree. The first Christopher Reeves film was great. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 1, 2021 18:18:43 GMT -5
It's amazing to me that there has never been a truly GREAT Superman film. We've had four GREAT Supermen (Collyer, Reeves, Reeve, and Routhe), but each film has been deeply flawed in one respect or another. The 1978 Reeve film is a beautiful origin story, but the Lex Luthor plot that makes up the second half is absurd, and while the villains in the second film are almost as fantastic as Reeve, the plot leaves so much to be desired. Don't get me started on the rest. Give me one great Superman film. In my mind, that means making the film mostly about Clark's life at the Daily Planet, and weaving a meta human conflict that holds high and meaningful stakes for the people Superman cares about more than a villain who can conveniently thwart the nigh-invulnerable Man of Steel or who is somehow tied to a tragic inner conflict that will make Superman darker and more flawed. I disagree. The first Christopher Reeves film was great. I agree with you literally up to the moment where Lex Luthor is introduced. The origin story is gorgeous and will never be surpassed. The second act in Metropolis with Clark and Lois is similarly extraordinary in a totally different way. But once it's time to introduce a conflict...it's a total disappointment. I love Gene Hackman, Valerie Perrine, and Ned Beatty, but their characters were far too camp to match the earlier portions of the film, and the plot was both spartan and absurd. Essentially, the reason I hate the final act is precisely because I love the first two acts so much and see how disjointed the final product is as a result. |
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Post by brutalis on Mar 1, 2021 18:39:49 GMT -5
I disagree. The first Christopher Reeves film was great. I agree with you literally up to the moment where Lex Luthor is introduced. The origin story is gorgeous and will never be surpassed. The second act in Metropolis with Clark and Lois is similarly extraordinary in a totally different way. But once it's time to introduce a conflict...it's a total disappointment. I love Gene Hackman, Valerie Perrine, and Ned Beatty, but their characters were far too camp to match the earlier portions of the film, and the plot was both spartan and absurd. Essentially, the reason I hate the final act is precisely because I love the first two acts so much and see how disjointed the final product is as a result. Easy fix. Watch 1 and 2 as ONE MOVIE as intended then 1's final act is actually the middle act 🙃 |
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Post by Icctrombone on Mar 1, 2021 18:45:19 GMT -5
The Luther part was campy but didn’t ruin it , IMHO.
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Post by Duragizer on Mar 1, 2021 18:54:51 GMT -5
The Donnerverse films made me dislike Gene Hackman for the longest time.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 5, 2021 18:45:31 GMT -5
I legitimately hate Superman (1978). The Smallville sequence is the only portion that engages me to any extent. I get more out of Superman III. Wow!
The film has its merits, but its not the end-all superhero movie according to some. One, when you have a villain that is not a believable threat to the hero, there's hardly any conflict. Two, if there's one thing that has outlived its shelf life is the "bumbling, nervous dork" Clark Kent--a gimmick that was thankfully tossed in the early 70s Superman comics, and was not in Cavill's solid performance.
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 6, 2021 8:59:07 GMT -5
The Donnerverse films made me dislike Gene Hackman for the longest time. Really? I personally loved his performance, especially coupled with the way the character was scripted. Hackman's Luthor had a self-deprecating humour and a smug sense of superiority that allowed him to play a campy super-villain with a straight face without becoming a caricature. Hackman took the absurdity of Lex Luthor as a concept and played with it. This scene (from 2:44) had me bursting out with laughter! "Because I love you"! Perfect delivery for an absurd cliché! |
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Post by Duragizer on Mar 6, 2021 21:51:41 GMT -5
Hackman Luthor is my least favourite Luthor. I prefer the Silver Age Luthor over him, and I haven't exactly hidden my disdain for that era of Superman.
That said, I've never watched Batman v Superman.
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Post by tarkintino on Mar 7, 2021 11:55:37 GMT -5
That said, I've never watched Batman v Superman. The Luthor in that film is not only intelligent, but he's not a delivering a comedic performance. Unlike Hackman's Luthor, Jesse Eisenberg's own deviant plans and hate-filled insecurities are all laid out--and pose a genuine threat to Superman. |
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Post by badwolf on Mar 8, 2021 10:29:09 GMT -5
The first two Reeve films were great for their time, if you ignore some wonky bits (amnesia kiss, turning back time).
I loved Man of Steel and yes, enjoyed BvS. Eisenberg might seem an odd choice but I thought he was great.
For Luthor I thought Kevin Spacey was great, though everything else about that movie sucked.
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Post by Randle-El on Mar 8, 2021 11:25:55 GMT -5
Gene Hackman's Luthor is silly, but I'd argue that his Luthor is meant to match the tone of the film once it reaches it Metropolis. Everything prior to Metropolis has more gravitas and seriousness, but once it reaches Metropolis, the film becomes more lighthearted. People in Krypton act like aliens reading dialogue written by Victorians, in Smallville they act like small town folks from a Norman Rockwell painting, but in Metropolis they act like an exaggerated version of the way non-urbanites imagine city people to act like. In a lot of ways, it mirrors how a lot of films and TV shows have always portrayed the city when telling the story of a country bumpkin coming to town. It's also effective in highlighting just how out-of-place Clark/Superman is in jaded Metropolis -- an earnest and sincere throwback hero who never lies and fights for truth, justice, and the American way (even Lois laughs him off when he says this). Not everyone may agree with that choice, but I think it works much better than if they had attempted to maintain the same tone throughout the entire film. In fact, I'd argue that this is one of the things that made Superman Returns a lesser facsimile of the Donner film. Singer's film failed to provide the right tonal backdrop for Kevin Spacey's performance of Lex Luthor. Singer was trying to be grandiose and respectful of the Donner films, while Spacey was channeling Hackman's performance, and this created a huge tonal clash that just did not work, IMO.
And for what it's worth -- the greatest live action Lex Luthor is Michael Rosenbaum from Smallville. He portrayed Luthor with just the right mix of charm and menacing darkness. Other live action Luthors merely served as antagonists, but Rosenbaum's Luthor is a true villain.
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 9, 2021 6:57:45 GMT -5
And for what it's worth -- the greatest live action Lex Luthor is Michael Rosenbaum from Smallville. He portrayed Luthor with just the right mix of charm and menacing darkness. Other live action Luthors merely served as antagonists, but Rosenbaum's Luthor is a true villain. For me, it's John Shea in Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. I will maintain until my last breath on Earth that L&C nailed absolutely everything about Superman...except Superman. The cast was brilliant and the writing perfect until Clark busted open that shirt and went to fight bad guys. As for John Shea, he was the perfect Post-Crisis Luthor even moreso than the source material. Perfectly composed, unflappable, and unstoppably hungry for more. It was never the crazy death trap he'd invented for Superman that was impressive; it was the fact that he never ever lost composure or confidence. He was always five steps ahead and completely in control.  |
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Post by Roquefort Raider on Mar 9, 2021 19:46:00 GMT -5
And for what it's worth -- the greatest live action Lex Luthor is Michael Rosenbaum from Smallville. He portrayed Luthor with just the right mix of charm and menacing darkness. Other live action Luthors merely served as antagonists, but Rosenbaum's Luthor is a true villain. For me, it's John Shea in Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. I will maintain until my last breath on Earth that L&C nailed absolutely everything about Superman...except Superman. The cast was brilliant and the writing perfect until Clark busted open that shirt and went to fight bad guys. As for John Shea, he was the perfect Post-Crisis Luthor even moreso than the source material. Perfectly composed, unflappable, and unstoppably hungry for more. It was never the crazy death trap he'd invented for Superman that was impressive; it was the fact that he never ever lost composure or confidence. He was always five steps ahead and completely in control.That sounds a lot like the Jon Cryer Luthor. |
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shaxper
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Post by shaxper on Mar 9, 2021 21:18:52 GMT -5
For me, it's John Shea in Lois & Clark: The New Adventures of Superman. I will maintain until my last breath on Earth that L&C nailed absolutely everything about Superman...except Superman. The cast was brilliant and the writing perfect until Clark busted open that shirt and went to fight bad guys. As for John Shea, he was the perfect Post-Crisis Luthor even moreso than the source material. Perfectly composed, unflappable, and unstoppably hungry for more. It was never the crazy death trap he'd invented for Superman that was impressive; it was the fact that he never ever lost composure or confidence. He was always five steps ahead and completely in control.That sounds a lot like the Jon Cryer Luthor. From the little of the John Cryer version I've seen, he seems less meticulous. Then again, I haven't seen much of Smallville. |
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