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Post by Hoosier X on Jul 9, 2021 11:57:59 GMT -5
I went back and reread The Batman of Tomorrow. I have a digital copy of an Eighty Page Giant where it’s reprinted and I read it a few months ago. I find Vicki Vale kind of hilarious. She has all the worst qualities of Lucy Lane and none of the good qualities of Lois. I guess she comes off as a Lois Lane rip-off but I think it makes sense for Batman to interact with the Gotham press corps and why wouldn’t there be a female photographer. And if you had a supporting character who’s a journalist who isn’t curious about Batman’s alter ego he or she would be the only person in Gotham who isn’t interested. I’m not under the impression that Vicki is much respected in the Gotham press corps. She doesn’t work for the Gazette or even the Gotham Globe which is a rag of a newspaper. She works for Vue Magazine. She gets by on personality and aggressiveness. And she dates Bruce Wayne from time to time. God knows what he sees in her. Well, she did (somehow) notice that Batman's height was an inch off, and Batman (somehow) suspected she might, so she must be reasonably good at what she does. She’s good enough to work for Vue. I’ll concede that. Figuring out Batman’s identity isn’t a job in Gotham. It’s more of a citywide pastime. There’s one villain who specializes in exposing Batman as Bruce Wayne. That’s Floyd Ventris the Mirror Man. And that poor guy. He just can’t get a break. |
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shaxper
CCF Site Custodian
Posts: 22,872
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Post by shaxper on Jul 9, 2021 12:02:19 GMT -5
About 20 years before the attacks on comics, newspaper strips went through the same thing. Comics were considered subliterate material and unwholesome. Newspapers banded together to defend their First Amendment rights and won; comic book publishers rolled over and instituted the Code, to get the heat off and target their competitors who were outselling them with crime and horror. I so often wonder how different the medium would look had the CCA never happened. For one thing, I'm reasonably sure superheroes would have dried out by the 1960s. But I also wonder if comics wouldn't have a wider mainstream presence today, instead of having become a niche premium product for nostalgic aging nerds. Maybe that's why sequential art endures more firmly in the form of YA graphic novels today; they don't carry the stigma of the comic book. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 9, 2021 14:33:56 GMT -5
About 20 years before the attacks on comics, newspaper strips went through the same thing. Comics were considered subliterate material and unwholesome. Newspapers banded together to defend their First Amendment rights and won; comic book publishers rolled over and instituted the Code, to get the heat off and target their competitors who were outselling them with crime and horror. I so often wonder how different the medium would look had the CCA never happened. For one thing, I'm reasonably sure superheroes would have dried out by the 1960s. But I also wonder if comics wouldn't have a wider mainstream presence today, instead of having become a niche premium product for nostalgic aging nerds. Maybe that's why sequential art endures more firmly in the form of YA graphic novels today; they don't carry the stigma of the comic book. I think it is likely, given what EC was doing with its sci-fi stuff, that it could have evolved into something more like Europe, with higher end magazines and albums of favorite stories, 20 years before we got that kind of thing. The CCA really held back the evolution of the medium for at least a generation. At the same time, the publishers were cheap; so, there would need to be a catalyst to opening up the purse strings, like a High Hefner, though with a more long term commitment. Hefner bankrolled Harvey Kurtzman for a magazine, but pulled the plug. It wasn't doing well, so I get that; but, he didn't really try to do it again with something else. oh, there were comics in Playboy and there were some book collections of those; but, not a publication devoted to them. |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 9, 2021 23:52:19 GMT -5
Detective Comics #216 (February 1955)  "The Batman of Tomorrow!" Batman's height was given as 6'1 in Detective Comics 214 just two issues prior to this one. Michael Fleisher's Batman Encyclopedia notes that it was given as 6'1 at least as far back as Detective Comics 141 though World's Finest 51 states that he's six feet even. Early on, you mentioned wanting to dispel the Batman as Superman-Copycat during this period myth so here's something which should help.  With a cover date of April, I think it's safe to say that Action Comics #215 wasn't in the works when Detective #216 was published making this issue of Detective the second in a row which would influence another of DC's stable of heroes at a later date (the first being Detective #215's connection with the Green Arrow yarn recounted in Adventure Comics #250). What gets me about "The Batman of Tomorrow!" is Batman being perceptive enough to note the inch variance between his height and Brane Taylor's, but completely overlooking how oblivious his replacement is to the differences between 1955 and 3055 to the point where Taylor can't go thirty seconds without forgetting that he shouldn't be flying around with jet rockets, truth spray, and invisibility-refractors. Are you telling me that he was so well behaved while discussing his plans with our Batman that none of the red flags he's so cavalierly waving about when he hits the streets were raised here? And what's with Batman's bad luck with blond-haired replacements? Brane Taylor, Roy Kane (from Blind Justice), and Azrael. Toss Tommy Karma ( Batman 401, 402) into the mix (though I shouldn't since he wasn't actually selected by Batman) and I'd have to wonder if perhaps another visit to Prof Nichols isn't called for to get to the root of this curse. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 9, 2021 23:56:40 GMT -5
Going forward, I believe the Who's Who entry listed him as at least 6ft 2 in, taller than Superman.
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Post by zaku on Jul 10, 2021 4:49:09 GMT -5
About 20 years before the attacks on comics, newspaper strips went through the same thing. Comics were considered subliterate material and unwholesome. Newspapers banded together to defend their First Amendment rights and won; comic book publishers rolled over and instituted the Code, to get the heat off and target their competitors who were outselling them with crime and horror. I so often wonder how different the medium would look had the CCA never happened. For one thing, I'm reasonably sure superheroes would have dried out by the 1960s. But I also wonder if comics wouldn't have a wider mainstream presence today, instead of having become a niche premium product for nostalgic aging nerds. Maybe that's why sequential art endures more firmly in the form of YA graphic novels today; they don't carry the stigma of the comic book. Well, you have like the rest of the world where "CCA never happened" as an example. About the "wider mainstream presence today" you have Japan, but I don't know if it is really comparable to a hypothetical CCA-less US. In the rest of the Western World, well, it's my impression that comics as Art are taken more seriously than in the US, but as an entertainment form they are slowly dying everywhere. I mean, with the price of one-two comics you get a month of Netflix/Prime/whatever. There is just no contest. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 11, 2021 11:52:53 GMT -5
Since this came up earlier, here are the names listed on the Superman DC Comics Magazines Advisory Board, in Sensation Comics #1: Josette Frank: Staff Advisor, Children's Book Committee, Child Study Association of America Dr William Moulton Marston: Member of the American Psychological Association; Fellow, American Association for the Advancement of Science; Author, Wonder Woman (as Charles Moulton)Dr C Bowie Millican: Dept of English Literature, New York University Ruth Eastwood Perl, PhD: Associate Member, American Psychological Association Dr W W D Sones: Professor of Education and Director of Curriculum Study, Univ of Pittsburgh Dr Robert Thorndike: Dept of Educational Psychology, Teachers College, Columbia University LCDR Gene Tunney, USNR: Executive Board, Boy Scout Federation and Member, Board of Directors, Catholic Youth Organization; World Heavyweight Boxing ChampionOne of our own detailed the history behind the board, in TwoMorrows, The American Comic book Chronicles, The 1940s: 1940-44, a portion of which is shown here.Here is a memo from Sheldon Meyer, quoted in the piece: An undated memo from editor Sheldon Mayer to his staff, preserved in the papers of writer Gardner Fox, provides one such checklist of no-nos, some a direct response to Sterling North:
1. Under no circumstances are we to show a hypodermic needle. If it is necessary to drug a man, it can be done by use of a ray, or something equally fantastic.
2. We must never show a coffin, least of all with a corpse in it.
3. Never show an electric chair or a hanging. If we must show a hanging, a silhouette will do the trick. If we must show an electrocution, show other prisoners talking about it, then have the lights dim, and go on again. This is much more dramatic and will not offend the mothers and fathers of our readers.
4. We must never show anybody stabbed. If we should have a fencing scene, the ‘kill’ can be shown again in silhouette.
5. No blood or bloody daggers.
6. No skeletons or skulls.
7. We must not roast anybody alive.
8. No character is permitted to say, ‘What the…?’
9. No one is to be called ‘jerk’ …
10. Little children are not to be killed or to die of sickness, accident, etc., in the course of the story. It is all right for them to have died sometime before the story opens, and on rare occasions – not too often – it may be necessary to threaten their lives, but that’s all.
11. We must not chop limbs off characters – unless a character has been injured in a normal accident and had a limb removed by surgery. The same goes for putting people’s eyes out, etc., etc.
At the bottom of this memo, Mayer added a handwritten note: “P.S – Now go ahead and write a good story – I dare you. SM”
So, again, we see that DC/All-American made a concerted effort to distance themselves from other publishers a full decade before Wertham, the Kefauver Hearings and other critics of the 1950s. |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 11, 2021 12:30:28 GMT -5
ps From what I could find, Millican, Perl and Sones were noted academics, specializing in educational psychology and wrote various academic papers. Sones is cited as an author, in 1944, of a journal article on Comics in Education. Thonrdike was a leading researcher in development of standardized tests. Josette Frank paid a price for her association with the board. She was a leading child literature expert and had written an article in What Books For Children, 2nd edition, explaining to parents what the appeal of comic books was, to children. In the end, she pointed out that children craved adventure, but real adventure was not part of their lives, since they were sheltered from it, by modern society. Basically, suburban life had stripped away real danger, and kids sought it in comics and other things. Frank was later attacked by Hilde Mosse, the acting physician in charge of the LeFargue Clinic (which was Wertham's professional place of work), over her articles, citing her membership on the advisory board. During the Kefauver Hearings, her boss, Gunnar Dybwad, was grilled over her association with the board. Frank also consulted on the Superman radio show and the novel, by George Lowther and wrote a forward in the original publication, discussing Superman's place in American Folk Heroes. Frank was a key advisor to Gaines and he sought her take on Wonder Woman and she did write a letter critical of sexual imagery and bondage, which is no surprise, given Sheldon Meyer's own concerns and the letters they were getting suggesting that some out there were more interested in those elements than the story. This got transformed into her being a conservative critic of comics, in the Professor Marston and the Wonder Women film, which is ridiculous. She defended comics as gateways to other literature, as providing the adventure that children sought and that the better ones taught good moral lessons. Frank was a political and social Progressive, the complete opposite of the movie's depiction and one of the reasons her association with DC came under fire, in the 50s. As a liberal and a noted figure in Child Psychology and education, her voice needed to be silenced. Her granddaughter wrote an article for the Anchorage Press, about the real Josette Frank, vs what was depicted in the film, which can be read here... |
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Post by zaku on Jul 13, 2021 3:22:23 GMT -5
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 13, 2021 18:29:58 GMT -5
A couple of examples of censorship on American superhero stories.   Am I the only one who thinks the corrected version looks more disturbing than the original here? |
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Post by codystarbuck on Jul 13, 2021 22:14:08 GMT -5
And yet, you also have the fumetti neri, like Diabolik, Kriminal and Satanik, as well as other, including the very adult Valentina, emerging and successful, at the same time. Adults were still allowed their violent and erotic comics, though some of them went through legal battles. The US wasn't really allowed that option, until Warren and the advent of the Undergrounds. |
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Post by zaku on Jul 14, 2021 3:22:30 GMT -5
And yet, you also have the fumetti neri, like Diabolik, Kriminal and Satanik, as well as other, including the very adult Valentina, emerging and successful, at the same time. Adults were still allowed their violent and erotic comics, though some of them went through legal battles. The US wasn't really allowed that option, until Warren and the advent of the Undergrounds. Yep! On the other side, like you said, here they went through legal battles and often seized but in the US, after the 50s hearings, politics and law enforcement left comics on their own devices. There, the comic industry had created its own prison. I suppose something similar happened with the movie industry, but at least films had different ratings. |
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Post by zaku on Jul 14, 2021 3:24:05 GMT -5
A couple of examples of censorship on American superhero stories. Am I the only one who thinks the corrected version looks more disturbing than the original here? You have a point! Fun fact: for whatever reason, at the beginning here we colored the Batsuit red! |
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Post by chadwilliam on Jul 14, 2021 11:09:31 GMT -5
Am I the only one who thinks the corrected version looks more disturbing than the original here? You have a point! Fun fact: for whatever reason, at the beginning here we colored the Batsuit red! I have a book on Batman memorabilia which I believe touches upon this. Though I believe that the author was referencing Japan when he made his comments, it could just as easily apply elsewhere too. Apparently, back in the 60's DC would send out images of Batman (and presumably other characters as well) to other countries so that they could make their own merchandise. Since these images were often in black and white, those working from these pictures would make up their own colors hence stuff like this being released...  Of course, it could just be someone saying "Man, this guy would look so much better with blue and red than blue and grey!" (and hey, are those Wolverine claws Batman's sporting under his glove?) |
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dave
Junior Member
Posts: 44
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Post by dave on Jul 16, 2021 10:57:54 GMT -5
Shaxper, been really enjoying reading through your reviews and commentary in this thread over the past couple days. Like you, I started reading comics in '89; possibly like you, it was Batman--specifically the blockbuster film--that brought me to the table. (First comic I ever bought--at least, in an "Oh my God, I have to have this!" instead of a "Wonder what this is?" capacity--was Jerry Ordway's gorgeous film adaptation. Man, did I wear that thing ragged.) I spent a LOT of time as a kid staring at those '50s and '60s Batman covers on the wall of the shop or maybe reprinted at 2x4 dimensions in an issue of Wizard and wondering what the stories were behind those covers. But who could afford such things at age 12?
Great thoughts all around in this thread on the political subtext, too. Not totally sure where I land on Silver Age Batman specifically, other than to recognize that this was the beginnings of an era of censorship in comics that has been repeated on any number of other mediums at different times... the Hollywood Hays Code in the '30s, putting warning stickers on hip-hop albums in the '80s and '90s, video games, D&D, etc. Anything that attracts the attention of children as well as adults starts getting a lot of disapproving eyes on it pretty quickly, and there's always going to be at least one jerk in the mix who wants to use the fear-mongering to further their own career.
I like seeing the defense of Schiff, because while he oversaw an era of Batman that seems anathema to the character today, I think those eras are important for any character who survives the turmoil of monthly publication as long as Batman has. They add new dimensions to the character and show how the character can be adapted to work in other types of stories than just the ones for which they're known. Spider-Man stories can be funny and light, or they can be deadly serious; why can't Batman stories have both crazy crooks and sci-fi gadgets (heck, combine the two and you've got Mr. Freeze!) or insane aliens (because Batman never encounters aliens every single day of his life when he hangs out with his BFF Superman). This era and the old TV show make me appreciate the versatility of the character more than they make me groan and fidget that they're "doing it wrong."
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